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Voicing

  • 1.  Voicing

    Posted 06-11-2018 18:25
    I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    Thanks in advance,

    ------------------------------
    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-11-2018 23:41
    Sheffey

    Juicing hammers is tricky if you've never done it before. But if you're willing to try, give it a shot.

    Get some lacquer, even out of a spray can, and dilute it about 3 or 4 to 1 with lacquer thinner. Apply a few drops to the crown of the hammer with an eye dropper, and let it dry for 10 or 15 minutes. Test to see the results. If it's too much, you can needle it down to your satisfaction. If wasn't enough, apply some more. Once you're satisfied with how much juice to apply, repeat as necessary to the rest of the hammers.

    Good luck

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-12-2018 18:39
    Since it is pretty new, if was me I would start with strong voicing.

    Start on just one or two of the worst notes.

    Starting at the rear duplex bars, LIGHTLY tap down on the wire on both sides of the bar (to straighten the segments and define the bend). Pull back up to pitch and see if there is any improvement. If so, try similarly behind rear bridge pins, again retune to see if any improvement.

    Some like to treat the front bridge pins too but I generally like to see that go naturally. Your choice.

    V-bar and front duplex can be treated similarly. All of this has the potential to open up the sound. If you get good success on a couple of notes, probably all will benefit. If it does nothing, don't keep trying. Then check hammer fit to the strings and fix accordingly.

    Take a look at the V-bar for good shape. If very rounded you may be quite limited in what you can do.

    That's where I would start. That may improve your needling.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 09:00
    Edited by David Love 06-13-2018 10:29
    How much experience do you have with lacquer?

    Needling the shoulders won't help with a Steinway hammers.  You say choked from C3 up that's pretty much the entire long bridge.  While it's hard to know what you mean by choked exactly, since you report good sustain, I assume you mean that the tone is a bit swallowed up, lacks clarity, i.e. that hammers are damping too much energy, remaining in contact with the strings for too long.  On that piano that's most likely because the hammers are too soft or too bulky or both.  I'd like to see a picture of the hammers with some measurements of the strikepoint to molding distance on a few sample notes, 30, 40, 50. 60.   While you're at it measure the bore distance on those notes.  If you have room to file the hammers that will be good to know.

    Start there.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 09:37
    I wouldn't start with the lacquer bottle.  I am  going to ask a different question.  Does the area you describe sound a bit like it is underwater (as in distant and unfocused)?

    I would start by filing a few test hammers to see if that will bring the tone more into focus.  Sometimes the outer layers of felt may be too soft, which can give the type of sound I described above.  If test filing your sample hammers yields good results, then proceed to file at least the area of contention, and perhaps the whole set.  Doping these kinds of hammers will give you a better result than what you have, but the most improvement will come by flling first, and then doping as needed (if needed).  You will have more clarity and focus that way.

    As David suggests, the hammers may be too heavy.  A quick and dirty test to see if lightening the hammers will yield improvement is to simply unscrew a hammer from about an octave above  and screw it in place at your test note.  You can do this in several places in the piano.  If the lighter hammer yields more sustain and volume, then lightening the hammers may be part of the fix.

    Will Truitt

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 09:45
    Peter & David,
    Thanks for your responses.
    Peter - I'm attempting to follow the Oorebeck model, where he does that after needling the "cushion".  Several others do the string work 1st, since it is less than 2 yrs old, I was hoping to do the needling 1st. I'll be back Friday and try what you suggest.
    David - very minimal experience with lacquer.  I have resisted doing any lacquering on this piano because of that and the fact that the tone is already rather bright. The hammers only have the factory lacquering, and do seem somewhat soft. "Swallowed up" would work, it doesn't have much "life" - generally the tone is bright enough, if not too bright. In octaves 5 & 6 even the music teacher noticed the "choked" quality.  I'll see if I can go by there before Friday and get some pictures.
    Thanks you both.

    ------------------------------
    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 11:15
    Sheffield, Andre Oorbeek's voicing methodology is not appropriate for NYC Steinway lacquered/soft felt hammers. He is quite clear about this when teaching (his book may not emphasize this point). Renner hammers, Yamaha hammers, these are perfect for his methods.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 12:11
    Sheffey-
    I recommend to you, and everyone, Jim Busby and Vince Mrykalo's new eBook on piano voicing.
    It is 300 pages full of information about all aspects of piano prep leading to a pinnacle of finest voicing.
    It discusses many techniques for different kinds of hammers and situations, not just what to do, but how to hear, analyze and think about piano tone.
    Ed
    http://www.pianotechniciantutorials.com

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 12:25
    I'll second that endorsement.  The Busby/Mrykalo ebook is a fantastic deal.

    ------------------------------
    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 13:51
    I bought the Busby voicing book. Had trouble opening it though. I am not that familiar with the EPUB format.  After downloading another EPUB reader, i was finally able to open the book. However, i am still unable to see the videos. He really should have those on his website or on youtube(private) so that they are more easily accessed by paying customers.  I sent him an email but am still waiting for a response.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    45 2020

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 14:01
    Here's the first noticed problem.
    No appropriate pictures or links next to so named tools. A couple i never heard of, and google don't help with proprietary tools too well.

    ------------------------------
    45 2020

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 20:46
    And I'll third the endorsement. Jim Busby/ Vin Mrykalo book is one of the best I've read on the subject. It starts with a good foundation - the different types of felt used on piano hammers - and builds from there. Discusses prepping the piano, needling techniques, lacquering, non-traditional methods, and a LOT more. It's honestly been one of those that I keep reading over again because there's just so many "gold nuggets" inside.

    If you have an Apple product, the iBooks format is quite nice. I read it on my iPad, but have also tried on my phone (5S), and it works there too. Sorry if this sounds like a commercial, but...

    "I'm a satisfied customer, and you can be too!"

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 20:54
    Well i finally fixed the problem.
    The epub reader would not recognize the links in the book so i was not able to watch any videos.
    I emailed Jim and he was stumped. He had his IT guy email me but again no luck.
    I decided to try other epub readers. I ended up with the Calibre Epub reader and was able to view the videos and convert the epub file to PDF.
    All of this problems is because a desktop computer (mine is windows 7) is not set up for EPUB files.

    So far i am going through the book and it looks a lot better than the last voicing book i read. Always fun watching someone trying to describe tone.
    So Boom Clang Sizzle everyone!
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    45 2020

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 23:20
    First, if you could clarify something, Sheffey.   It's my understanding Model O's were discontinued in the 1920's in favor of the Model L.  So were talking about a rebuilt O, yes?  With Steinway hammers?  If you are in doubt, the serial number will tell you the year.  Look at the front of the keyframe where it is stamped.  And Steinway hammers should have the name stamped on them somewhere as well.   A century old vintage O may have any number of other issues beside the new hammers which could affect the tone.

    Some years back I prepped new Steinways for a local dealer.  At the time (the nineties) they were shipped out with just minimal lacquering at the base of the hammers to "reinforce the structure of the hammer."  Addition lacquering was left to discretion of the dealer.  (I've heard that their practice is now to give them the initial soaking, but I've run across Steinway hammers in recent times that have obviously not had this done.  It may help to call them and ask.)

    The next step was then to saturate the hammer with a 4 to 1 solution (thinner to lacquer).   To quote Eric Schandall's concise leaflet:
    "It is important that the hammer receive adequate penetration of the shoulders and core.  An insufficient initial application will leave the core unsupported.  Such applications will create a hollow structural shell within the hammer felt that can block succeeding applications."

    If this initial step does not do the trick, subsequent applications are targeted at the surface of the shoulders, not on the strike point.

    The is the traditional way to achieve the "Steinway sound."  Their hammers do respond to this treatment.  They don't respond, in my experience, to any amount of needling (at least, not in a good way).  I've never tried to lacquer an Asian hammer, but judicious needling will do wonders for them.  Make sure you know what you've got.

    The downside to using lacquer.  1.  It takes some time to dry--for the initial soaking, up to a week.  Until then, you don't know what you've got.
    2,  Until it's dry, it stinks to high heaven.   You don't do it in a client's house.  If needs be, park the stack in their garage if practicable.  If it's in your shop, you won't want to be in there for a while.  That stink is nature's way of telling you it's doing you physical harm.  Don't ignore it. 3. Like most things, you benefit greatly from experience.  Asking for advice is always a good first step.







     ​​​

    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-13-2018 23:45
    Cecil

    Several years ago Steinway discontinued making the L, and started making the O. Basically the same instrument.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 12:53
    I just bought the ebook, on Ed's recommendation, and am finding it very readable, interesting, and enjoyable...but was a bit surprised there was no mention of Ari Isaac's hammers.  After hearing what they did for a Mason and Hamlin (Ari put them on a local piano owned by the late Met baritone, John Del Carlo), I put them on an old, nearly-dead B, and the tone that resulted was nothing short of amazing.

    Greetings to all,
    Linda Scott

    ------------------------------
    Linda Scott, RPT
    Portland, OR
    503-231-9732
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 02:09
    Edited by David Love 06-14-2018 02:29
    The Oorebeek method won't work on a Steinway lacquered hammer.  Steinway hammers already have too flexible a cushion in the shoulders and the hammers collapse too much at the crown which can make them sound lifeless because they are damping too much energy.  If the hammers have a crusty surface on the strike point because of the type of lacquering that was done yet are still soft underneath then you can have a weird combination of a bright and "pingy" attack but with no foundation to the hammer so you don't really get any dynamic development with harder playing.  The same thing can happen with this type of hammer when all you do is put a couple of drops of lacquer on the crown without firming the foundation, so I don't recommend that.  So these hammers will likely need the complete opposite of what the Oorebeek method prescribes.  They need a firming up of the shoulders and area beneath the crown whereas the Renner type of hammers need an opening of the hammer.  Think of it this way.

    © Illustration from presentation "Structural Voicing" by David Love, all rights reserved


    The ideal hammer is a non linear spring (actually all hammers are non-linear springs) that gets stiffer as it is compressed as pictured on the left.  Like a healthy shock absorber, this spring is open enough to cushion the impact without bottoming out but not opened so much that the spring is mushy (like the one on the right).

    The Oorebeek voicing method (similar to Baldassin Renner method or any other Renner style procedure) is meant to address hammers that come out like the one pictured in the center.  The spring is too tight and there's no room for it to compress.  The tone will be hard because there's no give in the hammer and the hammer cannot absorb enough energy to avoid an excess being delivered to the string.  By needling in the lower and upper shoulders you allow the felt to release its tension and the spring to open up.  The methods of doing this are similar with all hammers of this type (even though there are some slight variations in method they all aim to accomplish the same thing) but some hammers do not open up the same way with the same needling procedures.  Quality Renner hammers will generally release fairly well with needling in the 9 - 11:30, 12:30 - 3:00 range.  Many Abel hammers do not release as well and require more stitches, especially in the high shoulder (10:30 - 11:45, 12:15 - 1:30). On those hammers often the final stitches will need to enter very near the strike point with the needles angled outward aimed at the staple on the same side followed by shallow needling directly on the crown (sugar coating).

    Steinway style hammers (as pictured on the right) have a spring that is too open and require stiffening or solidifying at the base of the spring (lacquer adds both stiffness and density).  You can see from this picture that if you only harden the top of the hammer the supporting structure is still too weak and the hammer will collapse when compressed.  In that case you can get a funny reverse dynamic where a soft blow can be bright but as you increase the force of the blow the hammer gets darker as the crown of the hammer is buried by the collapsing spring.

    Since I don't know what has happened to these hammers (or whether I would interpret what you are hearing the same way as you are)  it's hard to make a specific recommendation but my guess is that the spring is too open and that the surface is crusty from your description.  In person I might have a different opinion.

    If that's the case the easy way to find out is to shallow needle the crown of the hammer and see if the tone just completely dies and becomes dull.  If it does that means that the crown was hard but the foundation of the hammer was soft.  The solution is to use lacquer to bolster the area of the hammer where the spring is pictured.  You do that by a full saturation of the hammer, or certainly a saturation of the hammer underneath the strike point.

    Remember your goal is the hammer on the left.  A less stiff spring at the top getting stiffer the deeper you go deeper into the hammer while maintaining as much as possible a resilient hammer--something which is contrary to the effects of lacquer generally.  The resilient hammer will spring back to regain its original shape more quickly.  Not only is that springing back necessary for voicing stability but the faster the hammer springs back the faster the hammer leaves the string (there are some articles on the behavior of springs which I can point you to if interested to explain that).

    Because of that I like to use a lacquer that remains somewhat "rubbery" when it cures.  Off the shelf lacquers, sanding sealers or even shellac  will not do that, they become brittle which not only makes the fiber brittle, keeping it from easily regaining its original form after it is compressed, but it will slow what's called the coefficient of restitution (COR--the spring's efficiency in regaining its original shape).  So I use (as I've mentioned in other posts on the subject) the lacquer that is sold by Pianotek called Pianolac which is made without the additives that harden lacquer to a state suitable to protect table tops but not best for stiffening felt while keeping it somewhat flexible.

    The net effect of a non resilient hammer, one with a low COR, is that it rebounds off the string slower and in so doing filters (or damps) the higher partials.  Recall that if the hammer string contact time is >= the period of the fundamental frequency, that frequency will be eliminated entirely.  You don't want that in the treble section of the piano especially where the hammer string contact time is very close to the period of the fundamental already.

    Other things can contribute to that damping including hammer mass, especially in the "killer octave" area.  Often people will but drops of lacquer on the crown in that area to boost what is otherwise a dull section because the hammers are too heavy (and often too soft as well).  As I mentioned earlier, that can make the section pingy and bright at low dynamic levels but when the hammer is over compressed it will choke the sound and the tone will lack clarity.  (Can you tell I'm not a fan of that method?)

    You can experiment by swapping hammers from higher in the piano.  For example, take C5 hammer and put it at C4 or the C6 hammer and put it at C5.  If those hammers are different size (they should be) you will hear a difference.  Experiment with hammers even higher in the range.  Take G6 hammer and put it at C5, for example, and see what happens.  Reducing mass in the treble section is almost always a benefit. With lacquered hammers you can usually alter the shape of the hammers by removing material from the shoulders with total impunity.  Don't do that with a Renner hammer or you will destroy the tension and structure of the hammer.  Abel hammers are more tolerant of shape alterations (probably for the same reason that they don't react as well to shoulder needling), depending on which hammer, but I prefer not to do that with those either.  I believe that is owning to differences in how the fiber is integrated and how reactive the overall hammer is.  A well integrated hammer will react away from the point of entry of the needles because the fibers maintain a strong interconnection to the other fibers in the hammer.  But that is another discussion.

    Of course, pianos can sound choked for other reasons, soundboard characteristics, too much downbearing, changes in the scaling to higher tensions, or a hammer that is too hard and too heavy on a lightweight soundboard and string assembly especially on an old and tired board (or a new and tired one).  If this is a rebuilt piano then it would be good to know more about it.  However, those commenting that this must be an L might recall that NY Steinway went back to manufacturing the O and ceased production on the L a few years ago.  So this could well be a 2-year-old Model O.

    Let me know what you find.

    Many interruptions in writing this so forgive any non sequiturs, redundancies or typos.  I did the best I could.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 03:33
    Hi, David,

    I agree with everything you've said here.

    And, for whatever reason, I don't see any pictures. Is there another
    post in this thread to which you've attached pictures?

    Thanks very much.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    On 6/13/2018 11:09 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > The Oorebeck Model won't work on a Steinway lacquered hammer.  Steinway hammers already have too flexible a cushion in the shoulders and the hammers collapse too much at the crown which can make them sound lifeless because they are damping too much energy.  If the hammers have a crusty surface on the strike point because of the type of lacquering that was done yet are still soft underneath then you can have a weird combination of a bright and "pingy" attack but with no foundation to the hammer so you don't really get any dynamic development with harder playing.  The same thing can happen with this type of hammer when all you do is put a couple of drops of lacquer on the crown without firming the foundation, so I don't recommend that.  So these hammers are need the complete opposite of what the Oorebeck method prescribes.  They need a firming up of the shoulders and area beneath the crown whereas the Renner type of hammers need an opening of the hammer.  Think of it this way.
    >
    >
    > The ideal hammer is a non linear spring that gets stiffer as it is compressed as pictured on the left.  Like a healthy shock absorber this spring is open enough to cushion the impact without bottoming out but not opened so much that the spring is mushy (left).
    >
    > The Oorebeck voicing method (similar to Baldassin Renner method or any other Renner style procedure) is meant to address hammers that come out like the one pictured in the center.  The spring is too tight and there's no room for it to compress.  The tone will be hard because there's no give in the hammer and the hammer cannot absorb enough energy to avoid an excess being delivered to the string.  By needling in the lower and upper shoulders you allow the felt to release its tension and the spring to open up.  The methods of doing this are similar with all hammers of this type (even though there are some slight variations in method they all aim to accomplish the same thing) but some hammers do not open up the same way with the same needling procedures.  Quality Renner hammers will generally release fairly well with needling in the 9 - 11:30, 12:30 - 3:00 range.  Many Abel hammers do not release as well and require more stitches, especially in the high shoulder (10:30 - 11:45, 12:15 -
    > 1:30). Often the final stitches will need to enter very near the strike point with the needles angled outward aimed at the staple on the same side followed by shallow needling directly on the crown (sugar coating).
    >
    > Steinway style hammers (as pictured on the right) have a spring that is too open and require stiffening or solidifying at the base of the spring (lacquer adds both stiffness and density).  You can see from this picture that if you only harden the top of the hammer the supporting structure is still too weak and the hammer will collapse when pushed.  In that case you can get a funny reverse dynamic where a soft blow can be bright but as you increase the force of the blow the hammer gets darker as the crown of the hammer is buried by the collapsing spring.
    >
    > Since I don't know what has happened to this hammer (or whether I would interpret what you are hearing the same way as you are)  it's hard to make a specific recommendation but my guess is that the spring is too open and that the surface is crusty from your description.  In person I might have a different opinion.
    >
    > If that's the case the easy way to find out is to shallow needle the crown of the hammer and see if the tone just completely dies and becomes dull.  If it does that means that the crown was hard but the foundation of the hammer was soft.  The solution is to use lacquer to bolster the area of the hammer where the spring is pictured.  You do that by a full saturation of the hammer, or certainly a saturation of the hammer underneath the strike point.
    >
    > Remember your goal is the hammer on the left.  A less stiff spring at the top getting stiffer the deeper you go deeper into the hammer while maintaining as much as possible a resilient hammer--something which is contrary to the effects of lacquer generally.  The resilient hammer will spring back to regain its original shape more quickly.  Not only is that springing back necessary for voicing stability but the faster the hammer springs back the faster the hammer leaves the string (there are some articles on the behavior of springs which I can point you to if interested to explain that).
    >
    > Because of that I like to use a lacquer that remains somewhat "rubbery" when it cures.  Off the shelf lacquers, sanding sealers or even shellac  will not do that, they become brittle which not only makes the fiber brittle, keeping it from easily regaining its original form after it is compressed, but it will slow what's called the coefficient of restitution (COR--the spring's efficiency in regaining its original shape).  So I use (as I've mentioned in other posts on the subject) the lacquer that is sold by Pianotek called Pianolac which is made without the additives that harden lacquer to a state suitable to protect table tops but not best for stiffening felt while keeping it somewhat flexible.
    >
    > The net effect of a non resilient hammer, one with a low COR, is that it rebounds off the string slower and in so doing filters (or damps) the higher partials.  Recall that if the hammer string contact time is >= the period of the fundamental frequency, that frequency will be eliminated entirely.  You don't want that in the treble section of the piano especially where the hammer string contact time is very close to the period of the fundamental under the best of circumstances.
    >
    > Other things can contribute to that damping including hammer  mass, especially in the "killer octave" area.  Often people will but drops of lacquer on the crown in that area to boost what is otherwise a dull section because the hammers are too heavy (and often too soft as well).  As I mentioned earlier, that can make the section pingy and bright at low dynamic levels but when the hammer is over compressed it will choke the sound and the tone will lack clarity.
    >
    > You can experiment with that by swapping hammers from higher in the piano.  For example, take C5 hammer and put it at C4 or the C6 hammer and put it at C5.  If those hammers are different size (they should be) you will hear a difference.  Experiment with hammers even higher in the range, take G6 hammer and put it at C5, for example, and see what happens.  Reducing mass in the treble section is almost always a benefit. With lacquered hammers you can usually alter the shape of the hammers by removing material from the shoulders with total impunity.  Don't do that with a Renner hammer or you will destroy the tension and structure of the hammer.  Abel hammers are more tolerant of shape alterations (probably for the same reason that they don't react as well to shoulder needling), depending on which hammer, but I prefer not to do that with those either.  I believe that is owning to differences in how the fiber is integrated and how reactive the overall hammer is.  A well integrated hammer
    > will react away from the point of entry of the needles because the fibers maintain a strong interconnection to the other fibers in the hammer.  But that is another discussion.
    >
    > Of course, pianos can sound choked for other reasons, soundboard characteristics, too much downbearing, changes in the scaling to higher tensions, or a hammer that is too hard and too heavy on a lightweight soundboard and string assembly especially on an old and tired board (or a new and tired one).  If this is a rebuilt piano then it would be good to know more about it.  However, those commenting that this must be an L might recall that NY Steinway went back to manufacturing the O and ceased production on the L a few years ago.  So this could well be a 2-year-old Model O.
    >
    > Let me know what you find.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-13-2018 09:44
    > From: Sheffey Gregory
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > Peter & David,
    > Thanks for your responses.
    > Peter - I'm attempting to follow the Oorebeck model, where he does that after needling the "cushion".  Several others do the string work 1st, since it is less than 2 yrs old, I was hoping to do the needling 1st. I'll be back Friday and try what you suggest.
    > David - very minimal experience with lacquer.  I have resisted doing any lacquering on this piano because of that and the fact that the tone is already rather bright. The hammers only have the factory lacquering, and do seem somewhat soft. "Swallowed up" would work, it doesn't have much "life" - generally the tone is bright enough, if not too bright. In octaves 5 & 6 even the music teacher noticed the "choked" quality.  I'll see if I can go by there before Friday and get some pictures.
    > Thanks you both.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-13-2018 08:59
    > From: David Love
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > How much experience do you have with lacquer?
    >
    > Needling the shoulders won't help with a Steinway hammers.  You say choked from C3 up that's pretty much the entire long bridge.  While it's hard to know what you mean by choked exactly since you report good sustain I assume you mean that the tone is a bit swallowed up, lacks clarity.  On that piano that's most likely because the hammers are too soft or too bulky or both.  I'd like to see a picture of the hammers with some measurements of the strikepoint to molding distance on a few sample notes, 30, 40, 50. 60.
    >
    > Start there.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    > 415 407 8320
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-11-2018 18:24
    > From: Sheffey Gregory
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    > Thanks in advance,
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=c6bec9da-82ac-413c-b761-8ffbb84d2e9a&MID=690549&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=690549&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    >
    >
    > You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >




  • 19.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 08:42
    Edited by David Love 06-14-2018 10:52
    Horace

    That's odd.  I see a picture imbeded in my original post. Let me know if you can see this.

    Here again is the illustration.  I also wanted to add that a very careful prevoicing routine, including and especially string leveling and hammer mating, is essential.

    (BTW Horace, I made several edits after the version you read and responded to so you might want to check again my original posting which has now been updated)

    Ilkustration from David Love
    © Illustration from presentation "Structural Voicing" by David Love, all rights reserved

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 13:42
    Hi, David,

    On 6/14/2018 5:41 AM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Horace
    >
    > That's odd.  I see a picture imbeded in my original post.

    OK...since I don't usually read this list via the HL site, that's
    probably the issue. I'll check there. Thanks!

    > Here again is the illustration.


    >I also wanted to add that a very careful prevoicing routine, including and especially string leveling and hammer mating, is essential.

    Yes, precisely so. If this kind of prevoicing is not properly done,
    anything that is done to/with the hammers will, at best, not do any
    damage. All of these kinds of procedures go to getting the instrument
    properly set up to the point that it is possible to do any "real"
    voicing, at all.

    Thanks again, David.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-14-2018 03:33
    > From: Horace Greeley
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > Hi, David,
    >
    > I agree with everything you've said here.
    >
    > And, for whatever reason, I don't see any pictures. Is there another
    > post in this thread to which you've attached pictures?
    >
    > Thanks very much.
    >
    > Kind regards.
    >
    > Horace
    >
    > On 6/13/2018 11:09 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    >> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >>
    >> The Oorebeck Model won't work on a Steinway lacquered hammer.  Steinway hammers already have too flexible a cushion in the shoulders and the hammers collapse too much at the crown which can make them sound lifeless because they are damping too much energy.  If the hammers have a crusty surface on the strike point because of the type of lacquering that was done yet are still soft underneath then you can have a weird combination of a bright and "pingy" attack but with no foundation to the hammer so you don't really get any dynamic development with harder playing.  The same thing can happen with this type of hammer when all you do is put a couple of drops of lacquer on the crown without firming the foundation, so I don't recommend that.  So these hammers are need the complete opposite of what the Oorebeck method prescribes.  They need a firming up of the shoulders and area beneath the crown whereas the Renner type of hammers need an opening of the hammer.  Think of it this way.
    >>
    >>
    >> The ideal hammer is a non linear spring that gets stiffer as it is compressed as pictured on the left.  Like a healthy shock absorber this spring is open enough to cushion the impact without bottoming out but not opened so much that the spring is mushy (left).
    >>
    >> The Oorebeck voicing method (similar to Baldassin Renner method or any other Renner style procedure) is meant to address hammers that come out like the one pictured in the center.  The spring is too tight and there's no room for it to compress.  The tone will be hard because there's no give in the hammer and the hammer cannot absorb enough energy to avoid an excess being delivered to the string.  By needling in the lower and upper shoulders you allow the felt to release its tension and the spring to open up.  The methods of doing this are similar with all hammers of this type (even though there are some slight variations in method they all aim to accomplish the same thing) but some hammers do not open up the same way with the same needling procedures.  Quality Renner hammers will generally release fairly well with needling in the 9 - 11:30, 12:30 - 3:00 range.  Many Abel hammers do not release as well and require more stitches, especially in the high shoulder (10:30 - 11:45, 12:15
    > -
    >> 1:30). Often the final stitches will need to enter very near the strike point with the needles angled outward aimed at the staple on the same side followed by shallow needling directly on the crown (sugar coating).
    >>
    >> Steinway style hammers (as pictured on the right) have a spring that is too open and require stiffening or solidifying at the base of the spring (lacquer adds both stiffness and density).  You can see from this picture that if you only harden the top of the hammer the supporting structure is still too weak and the hammer will collapse when pushed.  In that case you can get a funny reverse dynamic where a soft blow can be bright but as you increase the force of the blow the hammer gets darker as the crown of the hammer is buried by the collapsing spring.
    >>
    >> Since I don't know what has happened to this hammer (or whether I would interpret what you are hearing the same way as you are)  it's hard to make a specific recommendation but my guess is that the spring is too open and that the surface is crusty from your description.  In person I might have a different opinion.
    >>
    >> If that's the case the easy way to find out is to shallow needle the crown of the hammer and see if the tone just completely dies and becomes dull.  If it does that means that the crown was hard but the foundation of the hammer was soft.  The solution is to use lacquer to bolster the area of the hammer where the spring is pictured.  You do that by a full saturation of the hammer, or certainly a saturation of the hammer underneath the strike point.
    >>
    >> Remember your goal is the hammer on the left.  A less stiff spring at the top getting stiffer the deeper you go deeper into the hammer while maintaining as much as possible a resilient hammer--something which is contrary to the effects of lacquer generally.  The resilient hammer will spring back to regain its original shape more quickly.  Not only is that springing back necessary for voicing stability but the faster the hammer springs back the faster the hammer leaves the string (there are some articles on the behavior of springs which I can point you to if interested to explain that).
    >>
    >> Because of that I like to use a lacquer that remains somewhat "rubbery" when it cures.  Off the shelf lacquers, sanding sealers or even shellac  will not do that, they become brittle which not only makes the fiber brittle, keeping it from easily regaining its original form after it is compressed, but it will slow what's called the coefficient of restitution (COR--the spring's efficiency in regaining its original shape).  So I use (as I've mentioned in other posts on the subject) the lacquer that is sold by Pianotek called Pianolac which is made without the additives that harden lacquer to a state suitable to protect table tops but not best for stiffening felt while keeping it somewhat flexible.
    >>
    >> The net effect of a non resilient hammer, one with a low COR, is that it rebounds off the string slower and in so doing filters (or damps) the higher partials.  Recall that if the hammer string contact time is >= the period of the fundamental frequency, that frequency will be eliminated entirely.  You don't want that in the treble section of the piano especially where the hammer string contact time is very close to the period of the fundamental under the best of circumstances.
    >>
    >> Other things can contribute to that damping including hammer  mass, especially in the "killer octave" area.  Often people will but drops of lacquer on the crown in that area to boost what is otherwise a dull section because the hammers are too heavy (and often too soft as well).  As I mentioned earlier, that can make the section pingy and bright at low dynamic levels but when the hammer is over compressed it will choke the sound and the tone will lack clarity.
    >>
    >> You can experiment with that by swapping hammers from higher in the piano.  For example, take C5 hammer and put it at C4 or the C6 hammer and put it at C5.  If those hammers are different size (they should be) you will hear a difference.  Experiment with hammers even higher in the range, take G6 hammer and put it at C5, for example, and see what happens.  Reducing mass in the treble section is almost always a benefit. With lacquered hammers you can usually alter the shape of the hammers by removing material from the shoulders with total impunity.  Don't do that with a Renner hammer or you will destroy the tension and structure of the hammer.  Abel hammers are more tolerant of shape alterations (probably for the same reason that they don't react as well to shoulder needling), depending on which hammer, but I prefer not to do that with those either.  I believe that is owning to differences in how the fiber is integrated and how reactive the overall hammer is.  A well integrated
    > hammer
    >> will react away from the point of entry of the needles because the fibers maintain a strong interconnection to the other fibers in the hammer.  But that is another discussion.
    >>
    >> Of course, pianos can sound choked for other reasons, soundboard characteristics, too much downbearing, changes in the scaling to higher tensions, or a hammer that is too hard and too heavy on a lightweight soundboard and string assembly especially on an old and tired board (or a new and tired one).  If this is a rebuilt piano then it would be good to know more about it.  However, those commenting that this must be an L might recall that NY Steinway went back to manufacturing the O and ceased production on the L a few years ago.  So this could well be a 2-year-old Model O.
    >>
    >> Let me know what you find.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> David Love RPT
    >> www.davidlovepianos.com
    >> davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    >> 415 407 8320
    >> ------------------------------
    >> -------------------------------------------
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-13-2018 09:44
    >> From: Sheffey Gregory
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> Peter & David,
    >> Thanks for your responses.
    >> Peter - I'm attempting to follow the Oorebeck model, where he does that after needling the "cushion".  Several others do the string work 1st, since it is less than 2 yrs old, I was hoping to do the needling 1st. I'll be back Friday and try what you suggest.
    >> David - very minimal experience with lacquer.  I have resisted doing any lacquering on this piano because of that and the fact that the tone is already rather bright. The hammers only have the factory lacquering, and do seem somewhat soft. "Swallowed up" would work, it doesn't have much "life" - generally the tone is bright enough, if not too bright. In octaves 5 & 6 even the music teacher noticed the "choked" quality.  I'll see if I can go by there before Friday and get some pictures.
    >> Thanks you both.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >> ------------------------------
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-13-2018 08:59
    >> From: David Love
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> How much experience do you have with lacquer?
    >>
    >> Needling the shoulders won't help with a Steinway hammers.  You say choked from C3 up that's pretty much the entire long bridge.  While it's hard to know what you mean by choked exactly since you report good sustain I assume you mean that the tone is a bit swallowed up, lacks clarity.  On that piano that's most likely because the hammers are too soft or too bulky or both.  I'd like to see a picture of the hammers with some measurements of the strikepoint to molding distance on a few sample notes, 30, 40, 50. 60.
    >>
    >> Start there.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> David Love RPT
    >> www.davidlovepianos.com
    >> davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    >> 415 407 8320
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-11-2018 18:24
    >> From: Sheffey Gregory
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    >> Thanks in advance,
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >> ------------------------------
    >>
    >>
    >> Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=c6bec9da-82ac-413c-b761-8ffbb84d2e9a&MID=690549&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >>
    >> Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=690549&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net <hgreeley@sonic.net>. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >>
    >
    >
    > Original Message------
    >
    > The Oorebeek method won't work on a Steinway lacquered hammer.  Steinway hammers already have too flexible a cushion in the shoulders and the hammers collapse too much at the crown which can make them sound lifeless because they are damping too much energy.  If the hammers have a crusty surface on the strike point because of the type of lacquering that was done yet are still soft underneath then you can have a weird combination of a bright and "pingy" attack but with no foundation to the hammer so you don't really get any dynamic development with harder playing.  The same thing can happen with this type of hammer when all you do is put a couple of drops of lacquer on the crown without firming the foundation, so I don't recommend that.  So these hammers will likely need the complete opposite of what the Oorebeek method prescribes.  They need a firming up of the shoulders and area beneath the crown whereas the Renner type of hammers need an opening of the hammer.  Think of it this way.
    >
    > © Illustration from presentation "Structural Voicing" by David Love, all rights reserved
    >
    >
    > The ideal hammer is a non linear spring (actually all hammers are non-linear springs) that gets stiffer as it is compressed as pictured on the left.  Like a healthy shock absorber, this spring is open enough to cushion the impact without bottoming out but not opened so much that the spring is mushy (like the one on the right).
    >
    > The Oorebeek voicing method (similar to Baldassin Renner method or any other Renner style procedure) is meant to address hammers that come out like the one pictured in the center.  The spring is too tight and there's no room for it to compress.  The tone will be hard because there's no give in the hammer and the hammer cannot absorb enough energy to avoid an excess being delivered to the string.  By needling in the lower and upper shoulders you allow the felt to release its tension and the spring to open up.  The methods of doing this are similar with all hammers of this type (even though there are some slight variations in method they all aim to accomplish the same thing) but some hammers do not open up the same way with the same needling procedures.  Quality Renner hammers will generally release fairly well with needling in the 9 - 11:30, 12:30 - 3:00 range.  Many Abel hammers do not release as well and require more stitches, especially in the high shoulder (10:30 - 11:45, 12:15 -
    > 1:30). On those hammers often the final stitches will need to enter very near the strike point with the needles angled outward aimed at the staple on the same side followed by shallow needling directly on the crown (sugar coating).
    >
    > Steinway style hammers (as pictured on the right) have a spring that is too open and require stiffening or solidifying at the base of the spring (lacquer adds both stiffness and density).  You can see from this picture that if you only harden the top of the hammer the supporting structure is still too weak and the hammer will collapse when compressed.  In that case you can get a funny reverse dynamic where a soft blow can be bright but as you increase the force of the blow the hammer gets darker as the crown of the hammer is buried by the collapsing spring.
    >
    > Since I don't know what has happened to these hammers (or whether I would interpret what you are hearing the same way as you are)  it's hard to make a specific recommendation but my guess is that the spring is too open and that the surface is crusty from your description.  In person I might have a different opinion.
    >
    > If that's the case the easy way to find out is to shallow needle the crown of the hammer and see if the tone just completely dies and becomes dull.  If it does that means that the crown was hard but the foundation of the hammer was soft.  The solution is to use lacquer to bolster the area of the hammer where the spring is pictured.  You do that by a full saturation of the hammer, or certainly a saturation of the hammer underneath the strike point.
    >
    > Remember your goal is the hammer on the left.  A less stiff spring at the top getting stiffer the deeper you go deeper into the hammer while maintaining as much as possible a resilient hammer--something which is contrary to the effects of lacquer generally.  The resilient hammer will spring back to regain its original shape more quickly.  Not only is that springing back necessary for voicing stability but the faster the hammer springs back the faster the hammer leaves the string (there are some articles on the behavior of springs which I can point you to if interested to explain that).
    >
    > Because of that I like to use a lacquer that remains somewhat "rubbery" when it cures.  Off the shelf lacquers, sanding sealers or even shellac  will not do that, they become brittle which not only makes the fiber brittle, keeping it from easily regaining its original form after it is compressed, but it will slow what's called the coefficient of restitution (COR--the spring's efficiency in regaining its original shape).  So I use (as I've mentioned in other posts on the subject) the lacquer that is sold by Pianotek called Pianolac which is made without the additives that harden lacquer to a state suitable to protect table tops but not best for stiffening felt while keeping it somewhat flexible.
    >
    > The net effect of a non resilient hammer, one with a low COR, is that it rebounds off the string slower and in so doing filters (or damps) the higher partials.  Recall that if the hammer string contact time is >= the period of the fundamental frequency, that frequency will be eliminated entirely.  You don't want that in the treble section of the piano especially where the hammer string contact time is very close to the period of the fundamental already.
    >
    > Other things can contribute to that damping including hammer mass, especially in the "killer octave" area.  Often people will but drops of lacquer on the crown in that area to boost what is otherwise a dull section because the hammers are too heavy (and often too soft as well).  As I mentioned earlier, that can make the section pingy and bright at low dynamic levels but when the hammer is over compressed it will choke the sound and the tone will lack clarity.  (Can you tell I'm not a fan of that method?)
    >
    > You can experiment by swapping hammers from higher in the piano.  For example, take C5 hammer and put it at C4 or the C6 hammer and put it at C5.  If those hammers are different size (they should be) you will hear a difference.  Experiment with hammers even higher in the range.  Take G6 hammer and put it at C5, for example, and see what happens.  Reducing mass in the treble section is almost always a benefit. With lacquered hammers you can usually alter the shape of the hammers by removing material from the shoulders with total impunity.  Don't do that with a Renner hammer or you will destroy the tension and structure of the hammer.  Abel hammers are more tolerant of shape alterations (probably for the same reason that they don't react as well to shoulder needling), depending on which hammer, but I prefer not to do that with those either.  I believe that is owning to differences in how the fiber is integrated and how reactive the overall hammer is.  A well integrated hammer will
    > react away from the point of entry of the needles because the fibers maintain a strong interconnection to the other fibers in the hammer.  But that is another discussion.
    >
    > Of course, pianos can sound choked for other reasons, soundboard characteristics, too much downbearing, changes in the scaling to higher tensions, or a hammer that is too hard and too heavy on a lightweight soundboard and string assembly especially on an old and tired board (or a new and tired one).  If this is a rebuilt piano then it would be good to know more about it.  However, those commenting that this must be an L might recall that NY Steinway went back to manufacturing the O and ceased production on the L a few years ago.  So this could well be a 2-year-old Model O.
    >
    > Let me know what you find.
    >
    > Many interruptions in writing this so forgive any non sequiturs, redundancies or typos.  I did the best I could.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-13-2018 09:44
    > From: Sheffey Gregory
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > Peter & David,
    > Thanks for your responses.
    > Peter - I'm attempting to follow the Oorebeck model, where he does that after needling the "cushion".  Several others do the string work 1st, since it is less than 2 yrs old, I was hoping to do the needling 1st. I'll be back Friday and try what you suggest.
    > David - very minimal experience with lacquer.  I have resisted doing any lacquering on this piano because of that and the fact that the tone is already rather bright. The hammers only have the factory lacquering, and do seem somewhat soft. "Swallowed up" would work, it doesn't have much "life" - generally the tone is bright enough, if not too bright. In octaves 5 & 6 even the music teacher noticed the "choked" quality.  I'll see if I can go by there before Friday and get some pictures.
    > Thanks you both.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-13-2018 08:59
    > From: David Love
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > How much experience do you have with lacquer?
    >
    > Needling the shoulders won't help with a Steinway hammers.  You say choked from C3 up that's pretty much the entire long bridge.  While it's hard to know what you mean by choked exactly since you report good sustain I assume you mean that the tone is a bit swallowed up, lacks clarity.  On that piano that's most likely because the hammers are too soft or too bulky or both.  I'd like to see a picture of the hammers with some measurements of the strikepoint to molding distance on a few sample notes, 30, 40, 50. 60.
    >
    > Start there.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    > 415 407 8320
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-11-2018 18:24
    > From: Sheffey Gregory
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    > Thanks in advance,
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=c6bec9da-82ac-413c-b761-8ffbb84d2e9a&MID=690554&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=690554&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    >
    >
    > You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >




  • 21.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 11:01
    Thanks everyone! and particularly, David. What an in-depth response ! Much appreciated. The voicing project is on hold. I found out the HVAC contractor has Not fixed the humidity issue, RH was 74% yesterday.  That will give me time to look into Jim Busby's ebook.

    ------------------------------
    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 12:28
    woooo. maybe i missed it but you are saying the rh is 74 % ???????  how long has that situation persisted and is it a chronic problem ?

    i suggest you purchase a data logger that records temp and rh 24 x 7 and take readings for two weeks. highly advisable to gt a woolen string cover to protect the strings from rust. 74 is way north of the 40 to 50 % safety range in the dampp-chaser literature and the combination of high temps and rh is causing changes .  the felt in the hammers is absorbing moisture and it is going to cause sound changes . one of my customers has a love/hate relationship with her piano that was rebuilt with new hammer. after a few days of straight/drenching rains she complained about how bad the piano changed . when the weather changed the piano was wonderful.

    when i was involved with inspecting pianos after two floods here i used moisture meters to test wooden action parts, cases, soundboards, keybeds, keysticks, bridges, bottom boards, back posts, . most parts below the waterline completely pegged out the meter or produced the highest squeal on an audio tester. on a full upright i tested the hammer felts that had not been even close to the water or under a roof leak. at the time of the testing two weeks after the flood the ambient room temperature /humidity was staggering high. all of the test instruments maxed out, a grand piano in a home that sat a week there had all of the hammers peel off the moldings on either the front or back side or both. glue and pressure of the hammers wrapped around the molding could not stand up to moisture.

    you may find that you do not need to do any voicing after the environment settles down. it would be good to get a logger and string cover asap . having temp/rh before the hvac fix will open peoples eyes. beware you could also start to find mildew and mold..

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 14:47
    I finished going through the voicing book and videos by Busby. I enjoyed it and would also recommend it. I give it a grade of A-.  It is very thorough when it comes to voicing hard pressed hammers, but the lacquering Steinway hammers chapter almost seems an after thought with such a small amount of material.  Offering two lacquering application methods and then needle to remove the sizzle is rather lacking in content. Looks like he uses a sheffield lacquer?which i never heard of. So if your looking for a Steinway protocol, it may disappoint.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    45 2020

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 18:18
      |   view attached
    The advice to follow a manufacturers recommendations is a good one. Here is the pdf I got from Ronsen for their hammers. Looks like its based on a fellow name erwin.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    45 2020

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 18:56
    David,
    You brought up an interesting point regarding hardness of different lacquers. How are you measuring that?
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    45 2020

    chernobieffpiano.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 18:25
    Well... after the materials, dilutions and applications there isn't a whole lot more. Much simpler than needling non lacquered type hammers. Lacquer needling is done in or around the crown at various depths  (one of the problems over time). Not hard enough?  Add more. Some things are simpler than they seem.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-14-2018 18:35
    Hi, David,

    Hmmmm....not at all sure that I agree with this characterization.

    Properly done, a "lacquered" hammer is just as "voiceable" as any other
    types. Further, while it's become popular for many to do only "crown"
    needling, that is not the traditional S&S method. Those who cannot hear
    the difference made by shoulder needling "lacquered" hammers are either
    working with over-hardened (and, probably, improperly shaped)
    hammers...or...they simply cannot hear the difference...something I have
    witnessed in an appalling number of voicing "classes".

    Anyway...as long as one eventually gets the sound that one is after,
    does the procedure really matter? These kinds of things really
    shouldn't require an epistomologically based semi-ontological argument.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    On 6/14/2018 3:24 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > Well... after the materials, dilutions and applications there isn't a whole lot more. Much simpler than needling non lacquered type hammers. Lacquer needling is done in or around the crown at various depths ??(one of the problems over time). Not hard enough? ??Add more. Some things are simpler than they seem.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-14-2018 14:46
    > From: Chris Chernobieff
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > I finished going through the voicing book and videos by Busby. I enjoyed it and would also recommend it. I give it a grade of A-.?? It is very thorough when it comes to voicing hard pressed hammers, but the lacquering Steinway hammers chapter almost seems an after thought with such a small amount of material.?? Offering two lacquering application methods and then needle to remove the sizzle is rather lacking in content. Looks like he uses a sheffield lacquer?which i never heard of. So if your looking for a Steinway protocol, it may disappoint.
    > -chris
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > 45 2020
    >
    > chernobieffpiano.com
    > 865-986-7720
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-14-2018 12:28
    > From: James Kelly
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > woooo. maybe i missed it but you are saying the rh is 74 % ????????? how long has that situation persisted and is it a chronic problem ?
    >
    > i suggest you purchase a data logger that records temp and rh 24 x 7 and take readings for two weeks. highly advisable to gt a woolen string cover to protect the strings from rust. 74 is way north of the 40 to 50 % safety range in the dampp-chaser literature and the combination of high temps and rh is causing changes .?? the felt in the hammers is absorbing moisture and it is going to cause sound changes . one of my customers has a love/hate relationship with her piano that was rebuilt with new hammer. after a few days of straight/drenching rains she complained about how bad the piano changed . when the weather changed the piano was wonderful.
    >
    > when i was involved with inspecting pianos after two floods here i used moisture meters to test wooden action parts, cases, soundboards, keybeds, keysticks, bridges, bottom boards, back posts, . most parts below the waterline completely pegged out the meter or produced the highest squeal on an audio tester. on a full upright i tested the hammer felts that had not been even close to the water or under a roof leak. at the time of the testing two weeks after the flood the ambient room temperature /humidity was staggering high. all of the test instruments maxed out, a grand piano in a home that sat a week there had all of the hammers peel off the moldings on either the front or back side or both. glue and pressure of the hammers wrapped around the molding could not stand up to moisture.
    >
    > you may find that you do not need to do any voicing after the environment settles down. it would be good to get a logger and string cover asap . having temp/rh before the hvac fix will open peoples eyes. beware you could also start to find mildew and mold..
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > James Kelly
    > Pawleys Island SC
    > 843-325-4357
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-14-2018 11:00
    > From: Sheffey Gregory
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > Thanks everyone! and particularly, David. What an in-depth response ! Much appreciated. The voicing project is on hold. I found out the HVAC contractor has Not fixed the humidity issue, RH was 74% yesterday.?? That will give me time to look into Jim Busby's ebook.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-11-2018 18:24
    > From: Sheffey Gregory
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    > Thanks in advance,
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=c6bec9da-82ac-413c-b761-8ffbb84d2e9a&MID=690574&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=690574&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    >
    >
    > You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >




  • 28.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-15-2018 01:25
    Horace,

    I'm not exactly sure what you are disagreeing with.  Do you mean my simplification of the lacquering procedure? I don't think it's nearly as complicated as hammers that are voiced purely with needles.  Where to needle, finding the hard felt, feeling the consistency of the felt and how it's reacting, translating sound to hammer structure and specific areas of the hammer, determining the reactivity of the felt, how it might continue to relax over the crown after needling in the shoulders over a period of day (or not), is, in my opinion, much more complicated than decisions about lacquer which are basically, yes or no, how strong, should I file the hammers first, when should I stop.  In my opionion, lacquer is a pretty crude method.

    My experience with Steinway instructors (not to mention their technical manual) has been that they focused mostly on crown needling with little or no attention to the shoulders.  In fact, I recall one class I attended, given by a reputable and decades at Steinway tech, in which the shoulders were cut out of the hammer like someone took a bite out of an apple.  Side by side with other hammers in which this had not been done no one had any idea until the state of the hammers was revealed by the instructor and even then the sound differences could not be discerned.  My own personal experience is that shoulder needling, certainly low shoulder needling, doesn't have much impact.  That might be because the felt in Steinway hammers tends to be quite thick over the crown.  Any impact the shoulders may have might be lost in the shear mass of the hammer.

    Of course any hammer is "voiceable".  But that's not to say that the outcomes will be the same.  How the hammer as a spring responds in both directions impacts the tone and different types of hammers will have different spring coefficients.  I would never say that a hammer with lacquer can't be made to have a pleasant sound just as I wold never say that an overly hot pressed hammer is incapable of a decent sound, but the two won't have the same sound for structural reasons and there other considerations: the long term development of lacquered hammers, and the stability and longevity of hammers that require lots and lots of needling being the primary ones.

    I think the down sides of lacquer, as well as heavy needling, are stability and longevity.  Hammer felt is a beautiful thing, tightly integrated, a blend of various lengths of fiber nicely woven together to give something that has both incredible strength, flexibility and resilience.  Needing to turn those hammers into crystalline entities by saturating with lacquer, or having to needle them to the extent that the fiber essentially damaged indicates, to me, a hammer that is either poorly designed, executed, or matched.

    One thing that befuddle me is why folks cling to the idea of the current Steinway protocol being "authentic" Steinway when the hammer made and used prior to 1937 (when the original Weickert factory closed) bears no resemblance to the hammers used after 1937 and at present.  The current hammer is more a Stein-was than, say, an attempt to duplicate the high period by felt choice and process as you see with some of Ronsen's products.

    But not everyone agrees with me.


    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-15-2018 08:33
    I agree with you, David.

    I found that needling in the shoulders works some of the time on doped Steinway factory hammers.  Usually I am needling there to see if I can get more sustain if I hear it in the board itself (pluck string test).  Other times it does nothing.

    As a fan of the Ronsen Low Profile Weikert felt hammers (thank you very much for your contribution, David), I have found that they yield a very Steinway like sound when handled properly.  With these hammers, I start with needling to open them up.   Some filing if need be.  Depending on intent, I may lacquer them.  Doped RLPW hammers can sound like the factory hammers, albeit with more color and sustain.  I also use less lacquer.

    That said, my approach to Steinways is different than it would be with the heavier factory hammers.  Many of the actions I rebuild are older instruments with 15.5 mm. shanks and much lighter hammers.  Using Stanwood spline curves with the hammers, I reproduce the original hammer weighting to a large extent.  It is more faithful to the original sound than the modern heavy hammers, and does not require the change to a 17 mm. shank and other changes to the action set up (although I do model every action I rebuild, and may make some changes to refine the original setup).

    Will Truitt

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-16-2018 13:00

    Properly done, a "lacquered" hammer is just as "voiceable" as any other
    types. Further, while it's become popular for many to do only "crown"
    needling, that is not the traditional S&S method. Those who cannot hear
    the difference made by shoulder needling "lacquered" hammers are either
    working with over-hardened (and, probably, improperly shaped)
    hammers...or...they simply cannot hear the difference...something I have
    witnessed in an appalling number of voicing "classes".
    Horace Greeley,  06-14-2018 18:35
    I'm with Horace here. I do realize that many instructors, including those from the Steinway factory, have stated clearly that the only needling method to use  for lacquered hammers is right at the crown, and that shoulder needling has no effect. My experience tells me that this information is, frankly, hogwash.

    Assuming the hammers are not over-lacquered, shoulder voicing in the classic manner has essentially the same effect on the lacquered hammer as on the "hard-pressed" hammer: it "opens up" the range of the tonal gradient. (Hint: If the needles simply won't penetrate, the hammer is over-lacquered). This does presuppose that there is adequate density/stiffness in the felt around the molding tip (i.e., that the hammer, if too soft pressed, was adequately lacquered).

    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-16-2018 13:05
    So..."it depends".

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-16-2018 13:23
    Hi, Peter,

    Precisely so...there is not (and, almost definitionally, cannot be) a
    "one size fits all" response to pretty much any voicing question. There
    are simply too many variables that probably are best thought of as being
    "instance specific" for a static view of voicing to be viable.

    To be clear, though, the above absolutely _does not_ mean that certain
    kinds of (very) general rules can be applied to certain brands/types of
    hammers, certain brands/types of instruments, &c. And, it's also
    important to consider the use of the instrument: Where is it? How is
    it used? Who (mostly) is playing it? And that is before one gets into
    setting up instruments for specific use situations such as concert
    venues and/or recording studios, or similar locations.

    So far (after having done this for a fairly long time now), the best
    description I've been able to come up with around these kinds of
    questions is to think of the work as processing multiple "difficult"
    differential equations simultaneously. Hopefully, someone else with a
    stronger background in mathematics can come up with something better.

    Anyway, yes..."it depends"...and, your mileage will undoubtedly vary.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    On 6/16/2018 10:05 AM, Peter Grey via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    > So..."it depends".
    >
    > Pwg
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Peter Grey
    > Stratham NH
    > 603-686-2395
    > pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-16-2018 13:00
    > From: Fred Sturm
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Properly done, a "lacquered" hammer is just as "voiceable" as any other
    > types. Further, while it's become popular for many to do only "crown"
    > needling, that is not the traditional S&S method. Those who cannot hear
    > the difference made by shoulder needling "lacquered" hammers are either
    > working with over-hardened (and, probably, improperly shaped)
    > hammers...or...they simply cannot hear the difference...something I have
    > witnessed in an appalling number of voicing "classes".
    > Horace Greeley ,????06-14-2018 18:35
    >
    > I'm with Horace here. I do realize that many instructors, including those from the Steinway factory, have stated clearly that the only needling method to use ??for lacquered hammers is right at the crown, and that shoulder needling has no effect. My experience tells me that this information is, frankly, hogwash.
    >
    > Assuming the hammers are not over-lacquered, shoulder voicing in the classic manner has essentially the same effect on the lacquered hammer as on the "hard-pressed" hammer: it "opens up" the range of the tonal gradient. (Hint: If the needles simply won't penetrate, the hammer is over-lacquered). This does presuppose that there is adequate density/stiffness in the felt around the molding tip (i.e., that the hammer, if too soft pressed, was adequately lacquered).
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Fred Sturm
    > University of New Mexico
    > fssturm@unm.edu <fssturm@unm.edu>
    > http://fredsturm.net
    > http://www.artoftuning.com
    > "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-14-2018 18:35
    > From: Horace Greeley
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > Hi, David,
    >
    > Hmmmm....not at all sure that I agree with this characterization.
    >
    > Properly done, a "lacquered" hammer is just as "voiceable" as any other
    > types. Further, while it's become popular for many to do only "crown"
    > needling, that is not the traditional S&S method. Those who cannot hear
    > the difference made by shoulder needling "lacquered" hammers are either
    > working with over-hardened (and, probably, improperly shaped)
    > hammers...or...they simply cannot hear the difference...something I have
    > witnessed in an appalling number of voicing "classes".
    >
    > Anyway...as long as one eventually gets the sound that one is after,
    > does the procedure really matter? These kinds of things really
    > shouldn't require an epistomologically based semi-ontological argument.
    >
    > Kind regards.
    >
    > Horace
    >
    > On 6/14/2018 3:24 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    >> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >>
    >> Well... after the materials, dilutions and applications there isn't a whole lot more. Much simpler than needling non lacquered type hammers. Lacquer needling is done in or around the crown at various depths ??(one of the problems over time). Not hard enough? ??Add more. Some things are simpler than they seem.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> David Love RPT
    >> www.davidlovepianos.com
    >> davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    >> 415 407 8320
    >> ------------------------------
    >> -------------------------------------------
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-14-2018 14:46
    >> From: Chris Chernobieff
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> I finished going through the voicing book and videos by Busby. I enjoyed it and would also recommend it. I give it a grade of A-.?? It is very thorough when it comes to voicing hard pressed hammers, but the lacquering Steinway hammers chapter almost seems an after thought with such a small amount of material.?? Offering two lacquering application methods and then needle to remove the sizzle is rather lacking in content. Looks like he uses a sheffield lacquer?which i never heard of. So if your looking for a Steinway protocol, it may disappoint.
    >> -chris
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> 45 2020
    >>
    >> chernobieffpiano.com
    >> 865-986-7720
    >> ------------------------------
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-14-2018 12:28
    >> From: James Kelly
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> woooo. maybe i missed it but you are saying the rh is 74 % ????????? how long has that situation persisted and is it a chronic problem ?
    >>
    >> i suggest you purchase a data logger that records temp and rh 24 x 7 and take readings for two weeks. highly advisable to gt a woolen string cover to protect the strings from rust. 74 is way north of the 40 to 50 % safety range in the dampp-chaser literature and the combination of high temps and rh is causing changes .?? the felt in the hammers is absorbing moisture and it is going to cause sound changes . one of my customers has a love/hate relationship with her piano that was rebuilt with new hammer. after a few days of straight/drenching rains she complained about how bad the piano changed . when the weather changed the piano was wonderful.
    >>
    >> when i was involved with inspecting pianos after two floods here i used moisture meters to test wooden action parts, cases, soundboards, keybeds, keysticks, bridges, bottom boards, back posts, . most parts below the waterline completely pegged out the meter or produced the highest squeal on an audio tester. on a full upright i tested the hammer felts that had not been even close to the water or under a roof leak. at the time of the testing two weeks after the flood the ambient room temperature /humidity was staggering high. all of the test instruments maxed out, a grand piano in a home that sat a week there had all of the hammers peel off the moldings on either the front or back side or both. glue and pressure of the hammers wrapped around the molding could not stand up to moisture.
    >>
    >> you may find that you do not need to do any voicing after the environment settles down. it would be good to get a logger and string cover asap . having temp/rh before the hvac fix will open peoples eyes. beware you could also start to find mildew and mold..
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> James Kelly
    >> Pawleys Island SC
    >> 843-325-4357
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-14-2018 11:00
    >> From: Sheffey Gregory
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> Thanks everyone! and particularly, David. What an in-depth response ! Much appreciated. The voicing project is on hold. I found out the HVAC contractor has Not fixed the humidity issue, RH was 74% yesterday.?? That will give me time to look into Jim Busby's ebook.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-11-2018 18:24
    >> From: Sheffey Gregory
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    >> Thanks in advance,
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >> ------------------------------
    >>
    >>
    >> Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=c6bec9da-82ac-413c-b761-8ffbb84d2e9a&MID=690574&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >>
    >> Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=690574&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net <hgreeley@sonic.net>. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253b469&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >>
    >
    >
    > Original Message------
    >
    > Well... after the materials, dilutions and applications there isn't a whole lot more. Much simpler than needling non lacquered type hammers. Lacquer needling is done in or around the crown at various depths ??(one of the problems over time). Not hard enough? ??Add more. Some things are simpler than they seem.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
    > Reply to Sender : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=9e630203-91a1-491d-8c04-f5c286672e79&MID=690650&MDATE=756%253d45%253b46%253b&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    > Reply to Discussion : http://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=690650&MDATE=756%253d45%253b46%253b&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
    >
    >
    >
    > You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253d45%253b46%253b&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
    >




  • 33.  RE: Voicing

    Posted 06-16-2018 13:15
    Hi, Fred,

    Yes...I've heard any number of S&S folks say similar/the same things
    about "crown" voicing.

    What I have consistently found interesting; and something that has been
    reported back from a number of folks who have attended various factory
    classes in latter years (the last fifteen to twenty), is that these same
    folks have often said (in paraphrase)..."...Oh...no one here really
    knows much about the older production...". So, in a sense, they have
    the same conundrum as Dorothy Parker...there's no there there.... Which
    pretty well speaks for itself.

    Kind regards.

    Horace

    On 6/16/2018 10:00 AM, Fred Sturm via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Properly done, a "lacquered" hammer is just as "voiceable" as any other
    > types. Further, while it's become popular for many to do only "crown"
    > needling, that is not the traditional S&S method. Those who cannot hear
    > the difference made by shoulder needling "lacquered" hammers are either
    > working with over-hardened (and, probably, improperly shaped)
    > hammers...or...they simply cannot hear the difference...something I have
    > witnessed in an appalling number of voicing "classes".
    > Horace Greeley ,????06-14-2018 18:35
    >
    > I'm with Horace here. I do realize that many instructors, including those from the Steinway factory, have stated clearly that the only needling method to use ??for lacquered hammers is right at the crown, and that shoulder needling has no effect. My experience tells me that this information is, frankly, hogwash.
    >
    > Assuming the hammers are not over-lacquered, shoulder voicing in the classic manner has essentially the same effect on the lacquered hammer as on the "hard-pressed" hammer: it "opens up" the range of the tonal gradient. (Hint: If the needles simply won't penetrate, the hammer is over-lacquered). This does presuppose that there is adequate density/stiffness in the felt around the molding tip (i.e., that the hammer, if too soft pressed, was adequately lacquered).
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > Fred Sturm
    > University of New Mexico
    > fssturm@unm.edu
    > http://fredsturm.net
    > http://www.artoftuning.com
    > "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
    > ------------------------------
    > -------------------------------------------
    > Original Message:
    > Sent: 06-14-2018 18:35
    > From: Horace Greeley
    > Subject: Voicing
    >
    > Hi, David,
    >
    > Hmmmm....not at all sure that I agree with this characterization.
    >
    > Properly done, a "lacquered" hammer is just as "voiceable" as any other
    > types. Further, while it's become popular for many to do only "crown"
    > needling, that is not the traditional S&S method. Those who cannot hear
    > the difference made by shoulder needling "lacquered" hammers are either
    > working with over-hardened (and, probably, improperly shaped)
    > hammers...or...they simply cannot hear the difference...something I have
    > witnessed in an appalling number of voicing "classes".
    >
    > Anyway...as long as one eventually gets the sound that one is after,
    > does the procedure really matter? These kinds of things really
    > shouldn't require an epistomologically based semi-ontological argument.
    >
    > Kind regards.
    >
    > Horace
    >
    > On 6/14/2018 3:24 PM, David Love via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    >> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
    >>
    >> Well... after the materials, dilutions and applications there isn't a whole lot more. Much simpler than needling non lacquered type hammers. Lacquer needling is done in or around the crown at various depths ??(one of the problems over time). Not hard enough? ??Add more. Some things are simpler than they seem.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> David Love RPT
    >> www.davidlovepianos.com
    >> davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    >> 415 407 8320
    >> ------------------------------
    >> -------------------------------------------
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-14-2018 14:46
    >> From: Chris Chernobieff
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> I finished going through the voicing book and videos by Busby. I enjoyed it and would also recommend it. I give it a grade of A-.?? It is very thorough when it comes to voicing hard pressed hammers, but the lacquering Steinway hammers chapter almost seems an after thought with such a small amount of material.?? Offering two lacquering application methods and then needle to remove the sizzle is rather lacking in content. Looks like he uses a sheffield lacquer?which i never heard of. So if your looking for a Steinway protocol, it may disappoint.
    >> -chris
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> 45 2020
    >>
    >> chernobieffpiano.com
    >> 865-986-7720
    >> ------------------------------
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-14-2018 12:28
    >> From: James Kelly
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> woooo. maybe i missed it but you are saying the rh is 74 % ????????? how long has that situation persisted and is it a chronic problem ?
    >>
    >> i suggest you purchase a data logger that records temp and rh 24 x 7 and take readings for two weeks. highly advisable to gt a woolen string cover to protect the strings from rust. 74 is way north of the 40 to 50 % safety range in the dampp-chaser literature and the combination of high temps and rh is causing changes .?? the felt in the hammers is absorbing moisture and it is going to cause sound changes . one of my customers has a love/hate relationship with her piano that was rebuilt with new hammer. after a few days of straight/drenching rains she complained about how bad the piano changed . when the weather changed the piano was wonderful.
    >>
    >> when i was involved with inspecting pianos after two floods here i used moisture meters to test wooden action parts, cases, soundboards, keybeds, keysticks, bridges, bottom boards, back posts, . most parts below the waterline completely pegged out the meter or produced the highest squeal on an audio tester. on a full upright i tested the hammer felts that had not been even close to the water or under a roof leak. at the time of the testing two weeks after the flood the ambient room temperature /humidity was staggering high. all of the test instruments maxed out, a grand piano in a home that sat a week there had all of the hammers peel off the moldings on either the front or back side or both. glue and pressure of the hammers wrapped around the molding could not stand up to moisture.
    >>
    >> you may find that you do not need to do any voicing after the environment settles down. it would be good to get a logger and string cover asap . having temp/rh before the hvac fix will open peoples eyes. beware you could also start to find mildew and mold..
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> James Kelly
    >> Pawleys Island SC
    >> 843-325-4357
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-14-2018 11:00
    >> From: Sheffey Gregory
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> Thanks everyone! and particularly, David. What an in-depth response ! Much appreciated. The voicing project is on hold. I found out the HVAC contractor has Not fixed the humidity issue, RH was 74% yesterday.?? That will give me time to look into Jim Busby's ebook.
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >>
    >> Original Message:
    >> Sent: 06-11-2018 18:24
    >> From: Sheffey Gregory
    >> Subject: Voicing
    >>
    >> I only get to do a "complete" voicing about once a year, if that. I am currently working on a Steinway model O that is about 2 years old. To my ear from C3 up it has a "choked" sound. I have Not applied any hardener [lacquer or otherwise]. Sustain is OK, some notes have a decent gradient of tone. What has worked for me in the past for a "choked" sound is needling at 9 to 11. This time that made things worse instead of better. Any Ideas why ? Suggestions to resolve this?
    >> Thanks in advance,
    >>
    >> ------------------------------
    >> Sheffey Gregory, RPT
    >> ------------------------------
    >>
    >>
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    >
    >
    > Original Message------
    >
    > Well... after the materials, dilutions and applications there isn't a whole lot more. Much simpler than needling non lacquered type hammers. Lacquer needling is done in or around the crown at various depths ??(one of the problems over time). Not hard enough? ??Add more. Some things are simpler than they seem.
    >
    > ------------------------------
    > David Love RPT
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    > 415 407 8320
    > ------------------------------
    >
    >
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