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1971 Steinway D and riblets

  • 1.  1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2018 08:24

    Hi all,

     

    Yesterday I went to a school of music at a small college near my home and looked at a Steinway D from 1971.  Besides really needing a complete regulation and extensive voicing, I noticed the extreme loss of power and sustain in the "killer octaves" area of the middle upper treble section (lower capo section).  I sampled a couple of the worse notes by seating and level the strings and hammer mating as well as lifting the strings in front and back of the capo bar. It helped a little bit but I didn't do anything to the hammers. The hammers had been replaced at one time, but can't tell what kind they are, perhaps Renner (?).

     

    The school has very little funding so replacing the board or full rebuilding is out of the question.

     

    I'm wondering if riblets might help in this section of the piano. The bass is very nice. Has anyone installed riblets in the killer area and what was the outcome?  I just want to help them have a piano better than the one I saw for a smaller investment. I've never installed riblets, but wonder if this piano might benefit.

     

    Thanks for any advice.

     

    Paul



  • 2.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2018 13:29
    Paul

    Did you check the ring time by plucking the strings in this section? Could be that the hammers just need a little more oomph. Add some juice to the shoulders and core and see what happens.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Member
    Posted 10-18-2018 12:02
    Dale Erwin showed me this. I hung 20 or more sets in his shop. As part of my training he made me find the strike point and rehang the killer octave. 
    On a 1971 it may or may not have this problem. It turned out to be a bridge layout difference or something like that,,,, maybe a mistake. 

    You take the cheek blocks out. Place a strip of masking tape along the front edge of the key frame and scribe a line. From about C# 5  or it centers on the C#. It's been 15 years. You pull the action out and mark the front edge where it sound the best. When I was done, I had a funky horseshoe shape that started quick. Went from 1mm to 3mm in 3 hammers and crept to 3.5 mm in the very center and then went back the same as the other side. Dale came out and looked and said, "that's it. 3mm is what I get." Very distinct shapes.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-728-2163
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  • 4.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2018 12:09

    I saw a demo of this arching the hammer line at a Steinway seminar at Oberlin a few years ago, but never have tried it. I was a second opinion on Tuesday, but may bid the job as they don't have an actual CAUT person.

    I made a goof and didn't pluck the strings!!  The college is an hour away, so I asked the piano prof to do the test this morning. It's pretty easy to do. Just waiting to hear back from her to tell her good or bad news.

     

    Still wondering about riblets as well, but keep the ideas coming!

     

    Thanks!

    Paul






  • 5.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2018 12:30
    Paul,

    Personally, I would sooner want to have the prof pluck the strings for me over the phone than rely on their interpretation of what is being heard. YMMV.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Posted 10-18-2018 13:24
    I examined a D in a college.
    New factory hung hammers had been installed.
    Dead in the killer octave section. 
    I thought "they didn't lacquer the hammers."
    Checking with a needle, the hammers were quite hard.
    I pulled the action forward as Keith described and it came alive like magic.
    This is the first thing to try on a D with weakness in the capo section.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2018 07:24

    Hi again,

     

    As I stated earlier, I totally forgot to do the pluck test, and asked the prof to try it.  Fortunately, she indeed recorded one of the worst non sustaining notes, and plucking them sounded nice and clear and sustained!  Now, on to the hammers or changing the hammer line.  Not sure if I will do it, but can certainly tell whoever does it that this is what it needs.  If I can convince the school to just get new hammers and shanks, I will highly suggest the technician do the hammer line arch, and they will have a nice piano again.

     

    Thank you all for the inputs. Please continue to add more if you wish, but I now know the best approach on this project. I hope I can get the gig as we could use the extra $$$

     

    Best,

    Paul

     






  • 8.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Posted 10-19-2018 18:52
    In my opinion, the pluck test can be misleading if you are not listening right. When I do this, I listen to the length of the fundamental sustain, rather than any partial higher than the 1st partial. The fundamental can be hard to focus on, as hearing fundamental die out can be much harder to do than tracking partials by beats. Fundamental presence also depends on where the string is plucked.    ​

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 9.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Posted 10-19-2018 23:17
    I find it odd that if the piano was made in 1971, only now is there a complaint about power loss?  Must have sounded really good at one point for someone to buy it. So how could that be a hammer line problem? If it was rebuilt, wouldn't the power loss be there from when it was rebuilt? I would assume someone was  happy with the rebuild, if not, could have had it fixed then if the hammers were installed wrong.

    The lack of sustain can often be corrected with hammer voicing, if that was the cause.

    But another gear in the system is Steinway's poor rib structure. Every Steinway rib scale in my database has the same bad structure. Usually the 3rd, 4th, and 5th rib from the top are undermassed. On a B, C, and D those ribs should be 1" wide. If not i suggest that's the real culprit. I have noticed that every Baldwin in my database, those same ribs are a little over-massed. Hmmm...........  That piano is about 50 years old, just about the right time for those under-massed ribs to start showing the early signs of fatigue. When I make a new board, I make those ribs the correct dimensions, and therefore, I have never needed to alter the hammer line. I always use the original bridge root, so that can't be the problem either.
    In my opinion, Steinway's have way too much downbearing up in that section, I've seen 2-3 degrees of deflection. That coupled with the small ribs are a double whammy. So checking for excessive downbearing would be something to look for too. 

    The only time I have used riblets, anywhere on a board, was to fix a "too much energy note" problem. Not sure they add structural support.
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-22-2018 09:47
    Chris, 

    I am with you here on the excessive DB. Same is true on B's (actually quite a few others too). 

    I think I recall though that he said hammers had been replaced somewhere along the line. So a change may have occurred in the strike line, but also, the factory may have dealt with the issue simply by lacquering the daylights out of the originals. (BTW rock hard hammers, short sustain, crazy erratic instability...all together...is a classic indicator of extreme [and/or uneven] DB).  The factory doesn't mess with strike point...just lacquer.

    So, if whoever replaced the hammers noticed the same problem, they may have tried treating it the same way.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 11.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Posted 10-24-2018 09:56
    Peter said,
    (BTW rock hard hammers, short sustain, crazy erratic instability...all together...is a classic indicator of extreme [and/or uneven] DB).

    Nicely Said Peter.  Even made worse if the hammers are installed incorrectly.
    -chris


    ------------------------------
    I don't always play the piano, but when i do, I prefer my own.
    chernobieffpiano.com
    grandpianoman@protonmail.com
    865-986-7720
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: 1971 Steinway D and riblets

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-22-2018 10:29

    The piano prof there says they haven't liked it for a long time, making me think it was whenever new hammers were installed. It's very obvious that they are not original 50 year old hammers and shank.  Probably just not properly done.