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Follow Up Tunings

  • 1.  Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2018 14:20
    Hello All,

    Situation: You just raised the pitch on a piano. Aurally or electronically, it doesn't matter. The piano is now at 440. Do you recommend a follow up tuning? If so, do you do it then, or wait a few weeks?

    I've heard arguments from both sides before. One says, it's holding pitch at 440, so if it falls out of tune, it's the tuner's fault, and it's unethical to charge for a return trip. The other side says, the piano's tension was just shifted so dramatically. There's no way in the real world that one could expect the piano to remain in perfect tune until it settles a week or more, then is retuned.

    Thoughts?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2018 15:19

    For a huge pitch raise, I always recommend another tuning in about a month. Nothing will hold less than a huge pitch adjustment.

    I will charge a regular tuning fee rather than the added cost of a pitch raise and tuning as I have to run through it 2-3 times.

     

    After that, I will recommend tuning again in a few months, then every 6 months like you're supposed to do. Some follow the rule and become great customers, some I never hear from again, thinking I'm a rip off guy or bad tech.  The next guy is a hero if they didn't listen to me in the first place.

     

    Paul

     






  • 3.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-21-2018 15:24
    After a pitch adjustment, I tell the owner that the piano is now in a position to be tuned. I say it's like you can't wax a dirty floor, we just swept/washed it. It is an appreciable tuning but the polish comes from a re-application in a week or so. Even If it were tuned again that day, it would still shift a little from the structure reacting to the added compression over the next few days. How much would depend on the amount of change. I also use 'you can't wax a dirty car'.

    Those two analogies seem to clarify the point of the affect of tension change on the whole piano. I also explain the over-pull I used and where the pitch is at present from where I pulled it to, adding that each section requires a different amount of o/p. Then I say, "You can't fight Physics"

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-21-2018 17:21
    My preference is to leave the piano sounding very good after one visit, with the expectation that stability will be reasonably good considering the big pitch change and that it will, with subsequent regular tunings, get even better. I explain to the customer that I with go through the piano as much as I need to until it is ready to fine tune. I like to have it within 2 or 3 cents when I do that last pass.  For larger pitch preparations (pitch raises), I'll do two passes (occasionally 3)- whatever is necessary to end up within ±2-3¢ for the fine tuning. 

    I simply don't know if there is an advantage to getting the tuning "close enough, i.e. A440" and then doing a finer tuning in say a month.I prefer to do it all in one visit, and I recommend the next tuning at about 6 months. I believe it is a more efficient use of my time, plus I think I leave the piano in a better state that makes a better customer impression of the work I've done. I think I get the job done more efficiently, save the customer some money vs. two trips, and I don't take the chance of them not following through with the tuning a month later. Of course they pay more at once than it divided payments. I always make the point that what I'm doing is remedying the result of the piano not having been tuned for (often) many years or even decades. "We're making up for lost time!"

    I don't say this is the best approach but it's simply what I do.


    ------------------------------
    David Bauguess
    Grand Junction CO
    970-257-1750
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2018 19:21
    What David said. I've come across pianos where the tech did a pitch raise, but the client didn't have the follow up tuning. Obviously, they didn't think much of the tech, which is why they called me.
    Paul McCloud
    SAn Diego


    My preference is to leave the piano sounding very good after one visit, with the expectation that stability will be reasonably good considering the big pitch change and that it will, with subsequent regular tunings, get even better. I explain to the customer that I with go through the piano as much as I need to until it is ready to fine tune. I like to have it within 2 or 3 cents when I do that last pass. For larger pitch preparations (pitch raises), I'll do two passes (occasionally 3)- whatever is necessary to end up within ±2-3¢ for the fine tuning.

    I simply don't know if there is an advantage to getting the tuning "close enough, i.e. A440" and then doing a finer tuning in say a month.I prefer to do it all in one visit, and I recommend the next tuning at about 6 months. I believe it is a more efficient use of my time, plus I think I leave the piano in a better state that makes a better customer impression of the work I've done. I think I get the job done more efficiently, save the customer some money vs. two trips, and I don't take the chance of them not following through with the tuning a month later. Of course they pay more at once than it divided payments. I always make the point that what I'm doing is remedying the result of the piano not having been tuned for (often) many years or even decades. "We're making up for lost time!"

    I don't say this is the best approach but it's simply what I do.


    ------------------------------
    David Bauguess
    Grand Junction CO
    970-257-1750





  • 6.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2018 22:57
    I, too, agree with what David has said. Pitch raise or no, leave the piano at pitch and in tune when you leave.

    What is missing from this conversation is how big a pitch adjustment is being considered. If it's only 20¢ or 30¢ then a pitch raise immediately followed with a fine tuning should hold just fine. If it's, say, 60¢ to 100¢ then I feel a pitch raise, or two, followed immediately with a fine tuning would be my call with an explanation to the customer, (before work is even started), that this tuning will not hold for as long as they might want due to the extreme change in tension. It will likely require a followup tuning in less than the normal six months. 

    The only time I would go back at no charge would be if the tuning had actually slipped. Like if I did a poor job of setting the pin. And even then I would only feel responsible for a no charge visit if the customer contacts me within a day or two of the original tuning. After that it's a combination of what the piano is doing all by itself and the environment in which it lives. Neither of which are my fault.

    It's important that the customer understands what the situation is and what can be expected before you begin work. It is also important to remind the customer what to expect from the work you just completed when you are done. Don't leave room for the customer to blame you for a normal situation.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-21-2018 23:55
    Thanks for the input all! Much appreciated.

    Here's the conditions of our theoretical situation. You find the piano at -40 cents and there about. After two passes, the piano is as stable as you can make it on that trip. (As far as its flat, take as many passes as you need to get it to 440.)

    I'm not talking about putting off trying to do a fine tuning after the pitch adjustment; I think that's a given. I'm referring mostly to stability. Should we accept any slight shift out of tune as our fault or that of the piano's drastic change in tension?

    Or, should we give it an extra pass (even after it was moved less than a half cent in the last pass) at the same appointment for more stability, then call it good?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-22-2018 01:05
    As far as stability, there's no way to guarantee that after a pitch raise of 40 cents. It depends.. how stable the environment is (changes in temp and humidity), the age of the piano/strings, your overall skill level to deal with various aspects of the piano design (termination angles, understring felt, friction, etc.). The customer should understand that the piano was neglected, and that your efforts can only go so far in creating stability. If you made at least two passes or more (!), then you can say there's probably very little chance of something slipping badly that would necessitate your return for a free touchup tune. If after 3 passes you can't put it in reasonably good tune (and the piano has no major defects), well maybe you're still in a learning curve and you need to go back. I highly doubt that in your case. If there's a "slight shift", that would need a touchup tuning, I would not retune for free. It's what happens. And more than likely there is a fluctuation in the environment that caused it. There are some pianos coming out of China that are particularly difficult to tune due to friction issues and termination angles, and other issues that make them appear unstable. I have struggled with some of these that challenged my best efforts to make them stable or put in tune. Others were more sensitive to their environment, where they wouldn't stay in tune for even a day or two if somebody breathed on them. See what I mean? It depends.. But generally it's the piano's situation of being neglected that is the problem, not yours. And the client should foot the bill.
    My take.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Thanks for the input all! Much appreciated.

    Here's the conditions of our theoretical situation. You find the piano at -40 cents and there about. After two passes, the piano is as stable as you can make it on that trip. (As far as its flat, take as many passes as you need to get it to 440.)

    I'm not talking about putting off trying to do a fine tuning after the pitch adjustment; I think that's a given. I'm referring mostly to stability. Should we accept any slight shift out of tune as our fault or that of the piano's drastic change in tension?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net





  • 9.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-22-2018 18:44
    I'm having a bit of trouble following exactly what you are doing. Like most have stated, I do a pitch raise and tuning in one sitting and then tell the customer that the piano will tend to be a bit unstable and that the piano will likely go out of tune more quickly this time because of the pitch raise, but that next time we tune it should be more stable.

    Here's the conditions of our theoretical situation. You find the piano at -40 cents and there about. After two passes, the piano is as stable as you can make it on that trip. (As far as its flat, take as many passes as you need to get it to 440.)

    I ask why two passes? You should be able to get it up to pitch in one pass.

    I'm not talking about putting off trying to do a fine tuning after the pitch adjustment; I think that's a given. I'm referring mostly to stability. Should we accept any slight shift out of tune as our fault or that of the piano's drastic change in tension?

    Here it sounds like you have given the piano a pitch raise and a fine tuning in one sitting. Strings will start to go out of tune pretty darn quickly - not the piano tuner's fault.

    Or, should we give it an extra pass (even after it was moved less than a half cent in the last pass) at the same appointment for more stability, then call it good?

    No extra pass. Call it good - or at least as good as it will reasonably be. Up to about 100 cents flat, I will do a single pass pitch raise and then a tuning pass and call it done. I am aware that, especially for a large pitch raise, that the final tuning will be a good bit short of the best that could be done. IMHO, for most common situations, it is not worth doing extra passes (and charging for them!) to try to get the piano more stable or give it a better tuning. The darn thing is going to be unstable and will go out of tune more quickly than had it been tuned regularly. I suggest (nicely) that they basically just bear with the slightly unstable piano for a short period of time - a retraining period, if you will. This is what I would do in most common situations. This is NOT what I might do for a professional/accomplished pianist who wants their piano as well tuned and stable as possible. THAT could be multiple passes and perhaps a short-time return trip for retuning.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-22-2018 22:46
    Hi Terry,

    I was referring to our past discussion of whether two separate passes for a pitch raise and tuning, or one combined pitch raise / tuning. (Think CyberTuner's Smart Tune Mode or Verituner's equivalent.)

    Regardless of which method you choose for this situation, would you recommend a follow up tuning within a short time (say two or three weeks), or not?

    From your post I gather you would recommend a follow up tuning within a short period, yes?


    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2018 01:12
    Benjamin --

    A pitch raise and a fine tuning are two different procedures. You do a pitch raise to bring the piano up to pitch and equalize the tension across the soundboard and plate, then you do a fine tuning. The end result, if you have provided a quality tuning, will be a piano that is as stable as it's going to be. Please do not confuse this with RCT's "Smart" tune. It is NOT combining a pitch raise AND a fine tuning in a single pass.

    What Smart Tune IS doing is calculating a small amount of overpull so that you might be able to provide a fine tuning in a single pass when a piano is out by perhaps as much as 10¢±, or perhaps a bit more. If you were tuning by ear, 10¢ would probably warrant a second pass. If you were using RCT in Fine tune mode, 10¢ would probably warrant a second pass.

    All RCT is doing with Smart tune, and Veritune with Fine tune plus overpull, is making use of pretuning samples and the technology that both fine products provide to calculate a tuning that may possibly be acceptable enough allow you to do a reasonably "fine" tuning, when the piano is not that far out to begin with, in a single pass. Neither product is promising that a tuning with this advanced feature of a bit of overpull will always provide an acceptable fine tuning in a single pass.

    As a tuner, you should always be the judge of whether you can get away with a single pass "fine" tuning and whether the completed tuning is acceptable or not. If a single pass worked OK, then you bill for a single pass fine tuning. If it requires a second pass you bill for a pitch raise plus a fine tuning. 

    Part of your job is to educate the customer so that they are aware of how the piano may possibly react to a moderate pitch raise. They need to understand that the piano may require a follow-up tuning sooner than might normally be expected. However, don't assume that this will be the case. The piano and the environment may be happy enough together that it may not need a sooner-than-expected follow-up tuning. Part of your job is to always provide the best most stable tuning you can so you don't "owe" them this follow-up tuning. Another part of your job is to make sure that if they want a follow-up tuning then they should contact you for that tuning, at your usual rate. If you have done your job right, both socially and professionally, then they will WANT to contact only you for this follow-up service. And don't forget to send friendly reminders, usually twice a year.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2018 02:33
    Hello Geoff and all,

    Thank you for the information and insight. I appreciate your laying out the differences between a pitch raise and a fine tuning. I'm afraid I wasn't asking about pitch raising procedures - I think we've been around this bush plenty of times in the past months.

    Rather, I was trying to ask if you would recommend a follow up tuning for stability purposes, regardless of the amount of the pitch raise. Although, I think you've all answered my questions, and for that I thank you!

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-23-2018 09:20
    Hi Benjamin,

    I was referring to our past discussion of whether two separate passes for a pitch raise and tuning, or one combined pitch raise / tuning. (Think CyberTuner's Smart Tune Mode or Verituner's equivalent.)

    Okay, I understand. When considering using something like Verituner's Fine Tune Plus Overpull, or what I presume is CyberTuner's equivalent (Smart Tune), for a one pass pitch raise and tune, I think it is the role of the piano technician to evaluate - as is reasonably possible - the client in several ways: playing level (beginner, intermediate, etc.); ear sensitivity (are they aware that the piano was even out of tune - could they tell?); piano quality/state of wear; and even general financial status. I'm not suggesting that the tech needs to interrogate a client, but let's set up an example of extremes. In one case you have a 7-foot Kawai RX series nearly new excellent condition grand in a million dollar home and the pianist is some level of professional. If the piano were five cents or less flat, I might have a discussion about doing a one-pass pitch raise and tune. Any more flat and we don't have that discussion - but rather I tell the client that we need to do a separate pitch raise and then a fine tuning. And in this sort of case, depending on how flat the piano had been, I might well have a discussion about another tuning in a couple months. At the other extreme we have a little old lady (and hey, I LOVE little old ladies!!!) who couldn't hear you knocking at the door (I've had this happen - after arriving on my loud-piped motorcycle!), lives in a small, shabby, house in a run-down neighborhood, has a 1948 Gulbransen spinet with 847,000 miles on it (but still miraculously functions), and mentions that the only reason she called you - she thought the piano sounded fine - was because her son was over the other day and told her "mom, you really need to get this piano tuned because it is way flat and way out of tune!" In this latter case, if the piano was maybe even 10 to 20 cents flat, I wouldn't even have a discussion about pitch raising and just do a one-pass raise/tune for my regular tuning fee. If it were more flat, I would try to explain the situation to her and let her decide. If she told me that finances were tight - now no nasty notes to me - I have only done this maybe two or three times in 20 years - I might consider doing as much as a 50-cent pitch raise and "fine" tuning in one pass while using my Vertuner's Fine Tune Plus Overpull. This latter example may sound pretty extreme, but the client can't hear well, has significant financial constraints, and darn if three or four passes on that miserable little piano will ever make it sound good with the glass-hard hammers, the extreme false beats from F4 to C88, the tubby bass strings, the horrible bass/tenor break, the zinging dampers, etc., etc., etc!

    Of course, most situations fall somewhere between these two extremes. I guess you just need to use your best judgement. Use your experience to have a pretty good idea of what you'll end up with in any given situation with the one-pass raise/tune.

    Regardless of which method you choose for this situation, would you recommend a follow up tuning within a short time (say two or three weeks), or not? From your post I gather you would recommend a follow up tuning within a short period, yes?

    I do not specifically usually recommend a followup tuning within a short period. Like David Love explained, whenever I had raise the pitch of a piano five cents or more, I explain to them that because of the pitch raise the piano will be less stable and the piano will go out of tune more quickly that it might had it been tuned on a regular basis for the past number of years. I tell the client that they may want to tune the piano sooner than the normal tuning interval this first time because of the pitch raise, but when they want to tune is up to them. If they don't hear it going out of tune and they would rather not spend the money, then wait until the normal tuning interval. If their ears tell them that it is going out of tune after a month or two and they are willing to spend the money, then call me. I also have a discussion with them about how long piano tunings last. I explain about how a stable or unstable environment affects the tuning & pitch. I explain to them that most average beginner/intermediate players in a modern air-conditioned private home here in Central Florida are happy tuning once per year. I tell them that I tune my piano at home every few months as I hear notes going out. At the other extreme I tell them about the $150,000 concert grand and Ruth Eckert Hall that the Florida Orchestra uses is tuned every afternoon before every performance AND touched up at intermission! "Now what is wrong with that instrument? Nothing! It is just that the orchestra folks are that picky about the tuning being as perfect as is possible. Notes will start to wander a bit within a day!" THAT usually opens up their eyes! Sometimes I'll also mention "what does one do every time they pick up a violin or a guitar to play it? They tune it!" I then explain that all the same factors that make a guitar or violin go out of tune are at work on the piano, making it go out of tune. I do mention that the piano generally is more stable than those two other instruments because of the large very stiff cast iron plate, but otherwise they are subject to the same influences that throw an instrument out of tune.

    Well, I could go on, but my fingers are getting tired! I hope some of this might help. No two situations are the same and you just have to rely on your experience, education, and best judgement to give the client best value.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2018 10:32

    Terry, wanted to state I'm using nearly the same guideline you do concerning pitch raise and follow up tuning.  A great deal of my new clients got the piano for free or had it as furniture for decades and suddenly want to start playing again.  My own personal rule of thumb has been do a pitch raise if more than 5 cents for professional setting and 10 cents for everyone else (most of the people I see).

    For the pitch raise, if 50 cents or less, do not overpull and one pass.  Between 50 and 100, overpull except for the bass strings, one pass.  Over 100, two passes, no overpull.  When done, I tell the client that it will go out of tune sooner, not giving any time frame, and to give me a call if it's sounding bad.

    This is what I've come up with over time that I'm personally comfortable with and works for me.





    ------------------------------
    Jim Fariss, RPT
    Black Forest Piano
    Black Forest, Colorado
    (719) 425-8845
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2018 19:07
    Jim, 

    I'm a bit confused with how your method works. How would you tune a 50c flat piano to pitch in two passes without using some form of overpull?

    My experience doing this is that, without overpull, the piano will end up about 1/3 flat from where it was. Could you please clarify?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-24-2018 07:55
    For performance work, I'll tune/adjust pitch on the piano a week or two prior to the event. This allows for the initial reversion and plenty of time for the entire structure to react so the final tuning is stable.

    Steve Brady's 'Forearm Smash' helps in some situations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Gt2UO_6mM

    As Ron Nossaman pointed out, it's the back scale which causes drifting over time as the wires release through the bridge pins, if they hadn't initially. That's why I don't do a second pass unless the situation really calls for it.  For a major pitch raise, I'll over pull and then go over the treble from the break a second time with o/p. It is then up to the owner to maintain the piano. If they don't, I'll not have wasted my time getting the piano as 'best it can be'. I'll get it into the ball park and now the ball is in their court.

    I had one performance where the rental D had pins that were so tight, I could change the pitch 20 cents before the pin would move in the block. This piano should never have been in the CA Dept. After the first rehearsal, the piano was noticeably out of tune (uncharacteristically). I checked the back scale and sure enough the pitches were all over the place. So I had to get the tension up on some back scale wires. To do so, i had to raise that wire's pitch almost 80 cents before the string would come up to the highest one in the unison. I didn't 'tune' the b/s, just got the tension more even. After that, the piano was still impossible to tune, tuning for each rehearsal helped and it held thru the Rach. 3. Tuning for the performance took 2.5 hours, just touch-up for the second day took 1.5 hr. It was the piano from hell. The worst part about it was that the artist claimed that this was not the piano he chose. Not a pleasant experience all around.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-25-2018 20:28
    Today I tuned an SD-10 for performance. I adjusted the pitch 10 days ago (last tuned last concert season in July), 438 to 440 knowing that it would drop 25%. Today I tuned it -2c because it was quite warm in the hall and when the a/c comes on it will go sharp. Plus with the humidity coming in, it more than likely will be slightly above 440 by the next tuning, next Monday. You not only have to tune for the moment but you need to anticipate eventualities.

    With a one pass pitch correction with over pull, for a minor amount, A4 to A3 and up. When I come to tune from A3 down, I'll check the pitch with the VT and readjust the cents deviation to match where it landed and tune the bass. Major adjustments are done A0 to C8 with o/p with generic tuning file called Pitch Raise; this way I don't have to wait for the ETD to read the note, it keeps up with me.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-26-2018 14:11
    Today's victim was a 10 y/o S&S A. Hadn't been tuned since new. 30-40 cents flat. Since there was a substancial p/r anyway, I elected to also square the coils on the pins, it is unsightly when the coil is diagonal to the pin. That dropped it another 30 to 50 cents. Using my trusty Pitch Raise file (a renamed 5'6 Bechstein). I started at A0 at 442. The tenor at 444, increasing to 445 in the fifth octave. Reset the VT to 440 and checked the A's: 440. I'm going back Friday to give it a second pass to allow time for the overall structure to react to the increase in tension.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-24-2018 08:51
    Benjamin wrote:

    "I'm a bit confused with how your method works. How would you tune a 50c flat piano to pitch in two passes without using some form of overpull?

    My experience doing this is that, without overpull, the piano will end up about 1/3 flat from where it was. Could you please clarify?"

    Sorry Benjamin - I didn't see your post before I asked much the same question.  ;-)

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 22:54

    Thank you for asking about clarification on the not overruling less than 50 cents.  What I'm referring to is most of the pianos I seem to deal with, the Betsy Ross Lester Spinet we got for free off Craigslist and we're hoping little Heatherbell will learn to play the piano.  I've just not seen that much drop in pitch when less than 50cents followed up with a regular tuning.  I'm not trying to convince anyone this is the way to pitch raise and I'm sure as time progresses and as I learn everyday something new, there could very well be a time the light bulb will go on and will say, Darn, those guys were right about the overpull.

    Well, I wanted to contribute to the discussion for a change and not alway be a passive observer, so that's my less than 50 cents worth.



    ------------------------------
    Jim Fariss, RPT
    Black Forest Piano
    Black Forest, Colorado
    (719) 425-8845
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 23:08
    One more tidbit I"ll throw in here. I have found that with very old (100+ yrs) uprights, I don't use my normal pitch raise procedure. If I overshoot, it will be very minimal if at all. I have many experiences of using a pitch raise pass, and then have to pitch-lower it again because it didn't fall much at all when I was done. Aside from worrying about strings breaking, it always seems that overshooting an old upright isn't always the best way to get it up to pitch. Maybe a few cents in the treble, but otherwise just bring it to pitch and see what happens.
    FWIW.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego

    ___________________________________________________________________________


    Thank you for asking about clarification on the not overruling less than 50 cents. What I'm referring to is most of the pianos I seem to deal with, the Betsy Ross Lester Spinet we got for free off Craigslist and we're hoping little Heatherbell will learn to play the piano. I've just not seen that much drop in pitch when less than 50cents followed up with a regular tuning. I'm not trying to convince anyone this is the way to pitch raise and I'm sure as time progresses and as I learn everyday something new, there could very well be a time the light bulb will go on and will say, Darn, those guys were right about the overpull.
    Well, I wanted to contribute to the discussion for a change and not alway be a passive observer, so that's my less than 50 cents worth.


    ------------------------------
    Jim Fariss, RPT
    Black Forest Piano
    Black Forest, Colorado
    (719) 425-8845





  • 22.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-24-2018 08:45
    Jim Fariss wrote:

    "For the pitch raise, if 50 cents or less, do not overpull and one pass."

    I don't understand the above statement. No overpull on a pitch raise? Overpull is what a pitch raise is! No? How else is one going to get a piano that is flat up to pitch in one pass without overpull?

    "Between 50 and 100, overpull except for the bass strings, one pass." 

    Overpull, yes, of course - but not for the bass strings? Why not? How else are you going to have them at pitch?

    "Over 100, two passes, no overpull." 

    Ya got me again. After the first pass is complete, your bass will be about 15 - 20 cents flat, the tenor a good 30 cents flat and the treble maybe 40 to 50 cents flat. On your second pass no overpull? How does that work out? Why not overpull to get everything up to pitch?

    I have arrived at my own approach for pianos that are more than 100 cents flat. This is, of course, assuming it is not a high end piano and pianist - but then again, how often do you come across a high end piano with a high end player in that condition? The piano is likely too flat to get everything up to pitch in one pass. I do my pitch raise passes A0 to C88. Keep in mind that if the treble is 100 cents flat before you touch the piano, it will be 140 cents flat by the time you have pulled the bass and tenor up to pitch. I'll do a pitch raise pass with moderate overpull - full overpull in the bass if I can without pulling it too sharp (20% or less), full overpull in the tenor if I can without pulling it too sharp (30% or less) - no more than about 40 cents overpull in the tenor. The treble will be a different story because it will be so flat and you need so much overpull. I'll pull it up to 40 or 50 cents sharp and see how it ends up. Keep in mind, this is not the high end piano, but rather the 1948 Gulbranson spinet! On the tuning pass, hopefully, the bass and tenor are close and the treble will likely be a bit flat. I will tune the treble first with a "fine tuning" pass with overpull as needed - as the larger pitch adjustments there will affect the tenor, then tune the rest of the piano with overpull (or underpull) as needed.

    Again, I'm not suggesting that my procedure above will produce a great tuning. But any piano that was more than 100 cents flat will not be very stable at all after getting it up to pitch, and this procedure will get it fairly close - likely each note will be within a couple/few cents of target - and it will have good unisons. Very likely is will sound good to most players that are proud owners of more-then-100-cent-flat pianos! It's going to be unstable. It is going to go out of tune relatively quickly. So why waste the client's money trying to do a super-fine tuning. I will charge for my standard tuning fee and a pitch raise. One other advantage of my method (at least for me!) is that almost without exception, I can quote one of two total fees for an new client inquiry about tuning their piano. I can tell them that if it is up to pitch or very close, my charge will be my standard tuning fee. If is has fallen significantly flat, I will have to charge for a pitch raise pass and a tuning pass.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-22-2018 10:17
    Many pianos will hold just fine after a pitch raise, some, and depending on the amount of the raise, will be less stable.  I always seek to stabilize a piano as well as I can after a pitch raise.  That means multiple passes and especially a final check of the unisons.  After that I simply advise the customers to keep the piano on at least a twice a year schedule.  I tell them that it's possible that after such a large pitch correction that the piano may not be as stable as it would otherwise be.  I simply tell them that if the piano seems like it needs to be tuned prior to the six month reminder I will be sending them to not be surprised and call me if they prefer not to wait until the six month period is up.  I don't offer a free return trip.  I also suggest that installation of humidity control going forward will help to keep the piano more stable between tunings.  

    The fact that they (or the previous owner) neglected to maintain the piano adequately does not fall on you, nor should it.  It offers an argument for more frequent, and thorough, maintenance of the instrument.  You might also take the opportunity to discuss other aspects of piano servicing that have been neglected s, regulation and voicing.  Suggest getting the piano back to some base standard from which it will be easier to maintain.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 10:50
    Mr.Sanchez,
      I've an alternative method for you to consider when doing a very large pitch raise. Keep the ETD in it's case and learn to get through a full pass aurally in 20 minutes or less. When the late Steve Fairchild set the world record for fastest tuning (5 minutes of so) he didn't do it as a prank but rather as way to show how much could be accomplished in a single service call.
      I routinely do multiple passes on wildly out of pitch instruments before the ETD gets turned on. Over 80 to 100 cents flat I don't even use mutes the first time through. I usually plan for about 2 hrs per service call (I charge a lot) so if necessary I can do three 20 minute passes with the accuracy improving each time.Then a forty or fifty minute pass focusing even more on accuracy and stability with or without the ETD yields a reasonable result for the client who hasn't tuned the piano in decades or just got it for free. In neither of those cases do I maintain much hope they are going to suddenly become scrupulous about piano maintenance going forward. I have however given them a pretty good value for 2 hours of my time and left a result that will protect my reputation when their friends or teachers see the instrument. The cruel truth of our business is that they won't say "This piano was a wreck and my tuner said it needs more work" rather they'll say "oh look; Karl Roeder just tuned my piano!"
      With a month or two of hard work you can train yourself to do fast pass tunings. You also live in an area with some of the best teacher/mentors on the planet. A little time spent (be prepared to compensate them for the time) with one or more of them might get you there even quicker.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-24-2018 12:20

    Steve Fairchild set the world record for fastest tuning (5 minutes of so)
    Karl Roeder,  06-24-2018 10:49
    So, I saw this mentioned in another thread maybe a year ago, and I did a search for it but couldn't find anything about. Where's the documentation or equivalent on this? I'd be interested to know the parameters of this tuning. Did every pin need to be touched by the tuning hammer? How far off pitch was the piano before the tuning? Was the tuning checked afterwards? What kind of piano was it? Etc...

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 15:42
    Mr. Kerns,
    It used to be in the Guiness Book of World Records. I had a copy when I was a kid back in the 1970's. Don't know if it's still listed and their website's no use at all.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-24-2018 15:44
    "Steve Fairchild set the world record for fastest tuning (5 minutes of so)"

    This story has been passed along for about 40 years now, details missing.
    Five minutes would be 2.66 seconds per tuning pin if all had to be corrected.
    It would be helpful to hear from a witness to this legendary event.
    I could offer a third hand report, but can't support it.



    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-24-2018 16:35

    Steve Fairchild set the world record for fastest tuning (5 minutes of so) he didn't do it as a prank but rather as way to show how much could be accomplished in a single service call.
    Karl Roeder,  06-24-2018 10:49
    Ya know, I'm sure we've all encountered pianos that we could fix about a half dozen unisons on and it would sound just fine. Probably take longer to get my tools out than to tune the piano...😏😜😉

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & Easy Piano Tuner user
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 17:16
    My recollection of the Fairchild record was a pitch raise and tuning together somewhere in the 15-20 minute range, and that it would pass at better than 80% on the PTG tuning test.

    I believe I remember the figure of around 9 minutes or so to accomplish just a regular tuning. 

    I once got a really nice compliment from Steve in one of his classes. He said: "You must have ears like Newton Hunt". This was due to the fact that I isolated a slightly errant M3rd in a temperament he had just (proudly) tuned with his souped up Sight-o-Tuner, and (through aural tests) figured out which note was off, in which direction, and was pretty close to how much. He was suitably impressed. I was happy that I got it right. It was not guesswork...simply analysis and testing.

    He was fast! No doubt about it.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 17:40
    Soooo........

     from Wikipedia

    Verifying existing records

    Guinness World Records website publishes selected records and is not supposed to be used for the record verification purposes, as it explains: "There are more than 40,000 current records in our database and we try our best to feature as many as possible online. We currently include over 15,000 records online which we update every week, so make sure to check the site regularly!" The book printed annually contains only 4,000 records. The only way to verify a record is to contact Guinness, and the average response time is twelve weeks.

    I guess I'll have to go searching in the used book stores until I find a copy with the entry and get back to everyone when I find it.

    My point that in general one can do more in a single service call than is commonly believed seems to be lost in the noise surrounding my apparently ill advised mention of Mr. Fairchild and his record.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2018 21:00
    I agree that it is quite possible to accomplish more than usual.

    Electronics MAY help reduce mental fatigue, but I have never found it to be faster than aural tuning (once one learns the ropes). When i use a machine I spend half my time waiting for the machine to register the note. Not my style.

    There are also efficiency tips that can peel several minutes off here and there. Benjamin, you have catalogued some of these.

    I still feel that every tuner should actively work at tuning aurally even if he/she normally uses a device.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Posted 06-25-2018 08:23

    A general guideline that I have followed for nearly 40 years after Chris Robinson put it in my ear is "Three times fast is better than one time slow."  This works for tuning, key leveling, after touch, hammer line, voicing and lots of other stuff we do everyday. I have accomplished pretty stable tunings at A440 with a 100 cent pitch correction with three passes. First one no more than 10 cents above 440 (don't want to break those poorly scaled bass strings), then second a  PC overpull with an AccuTuner, finally a fine tuning at pitch with maybe a fourth touch up in the high treble. I did one the other day in slightly less than two hours. I charged my flat rate for tuning plus one hour of time for the pitch corrections.

     Recommended that the next service happen in 3 months and the customer, after reading PTG Tech bulletin and discussing it with me actually scheduled it for 3 months. Based on past experience I expect to do a fine tuning at pitch with maybe a couple of passes in the high treble. With regular service the piano should be stable enough until they open the window in the summer or move it over next to the radiator in the winter.

    Chris Solliday






  • 33.  RE: Follow Up Tunings

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2018 02:11
    Which reminds me of that Woody Allen bit:  I took the Evelyn Wood speed reading course and read War and Peace in an hour. It's about Russia."

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------