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Steinway D key dip

  • 1.  Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 18:34
    I am servicing a Steinway D in an extremely humid large church sanctuary. Each July the keydip becomes so shallow it almost will not "let off". Awfully out of regulation. 
         If I correctly regulate it do you think it will better deal with these humidity changes to the point it would would play better.

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    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 18:44
    Those long flexible keys are quite the problem in a D. Make them less flexible, and or get the humidity under control. 
    Good luck.
    -chris





  • 3.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 19:19
    How do you make the keys less flexible AND I've had this same problem on an M. Do you think the back rail cloth or is swelling or maybe the balance rail is moving. Little knocking in bass and treble but solid in mid section.

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 4.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 19:50
    Balance Rail knocking? Turn the glides down to increase dip temporarily.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
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  • 5.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2018 20:02
    Sounds to me like the keybed is moving/warping. Perhaps a dehumidifier system including one (or two) under the keybed could assist in stabilizing it. 

    Scott Jones once had a device to screw to the bottom of the keybed for that purpose. Discontinued. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-18-2018 20:03
    Mr. Black,
    with all due respect to Mr. Chernobieff (for whom I have a great deal of respect) the flexibility of the keys isn't the issue here. The flexibility of the keybed is. When exposed to high levels of humidity the keybed of a Steinway piano frequently bows substantially. If the instrument has been regulated such that the glide studs are being used to produce increased key depth (don't do this on purpose) the keybed bowing downward will produce the condition you are experiencing by removing support from the glide studs. I have worked on a Steinway where the opposite has happened and the attending technician placed 1/8th" shims under the cheeks so that the resulting increase in key height didn't cause the keys to hit the bottom of the fallboard. Sadly, the fallboard no longer closed. But at least he got paid for installing the shims.
      The quick solution is to turn down the studs until they contact the keybed again enough to restore proper depth. Probably just the center 3 as the sides don't change all that much.You will of course need to reverse this process in late September or early October. At that time you can properly regulate the action and add sufficient humidity control to keep the problem from returning next Summer.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 7.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 20:30
    Karl,
    The mid section isn’t knocking where the dip is the most shallow. Do I still turn down the glides even if it isn’t knocking at that section. It’s knocking in bass and high treble. Thanks

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 8.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 21:35
    A quick seasonal fix for a knocking front rail is a piece of paper between the rail and the key bed. It is removed once the humidity changes. Just because the center glides are not producing a knock, doesn't mean they are touching the keybed. Press down on a glide and notice if the keys
    lower in front of the glide, if the keys move, the glide is not seated.

    Turn the glides down to develop the key dip required for after touch, if the front rail develops a knock, place a paper shim underneath. This is an emergency procedure to maintain playability. Plan on bedding the keyframe in better weather.

    Uprights have an slightly different problem from humidity and the action. Sometimes, the jacks lift the hammers off the rail. In this case, a piece of firm felt under the rail at each bracket raises the rail to the shanks and reestablishes the minimal lost motion. Come winter, the felt shims are removed. I store them between the rail felt and the rail for the next season change. Every vertical at a school I tune for has them.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-18-2018 22:27
    Jon,
    Thank you for this info. There’s all kinds of strange things going on with this beast.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 10.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 01:01

    Thomas -
    The information provided is minimal.  How old is the piano? New or rebuilt? When last regulated?  By you?  How humid is "extremely humid".  What's the average humidity at the driest time of year?  What is the measurement of key dip at the different extremes?  How much aftertouch (as per 'lost-punching' method) do you have during the 'non-humid' season?  Is sanctuary air-conditioned?   Who's complaining? d

    In answer to your question:
     If I correctly regulate it do you think it will better deal with these humidity changes to the point it would would play better.?
    If you regulate it now, it will play better, now.  If you set it up with minimal after touch now, there's a chance that you'll be within a manageable spec for dip in the dryer period..  For temporary triage, as Jon and Karl said, use glides.



    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2018 01:01
    ​A business card (or 2) under the front rail works well for seasonal knocking, if one isn't too modest to have it there. <grin>

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 12.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-19-2018 08:24
    Those long flexible keys are quite the problem in a D. Make them less flexible, and or get the humidity under control. 
    Good luck.
    -chris





  • 13.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 09:12
    Chris -
    First, as you know, not all Steinway D keys were alike.  As I wrote earlier, Thomas gave no indication of the vintage of this D, nor any other illuminating information.  He did say that he was having the same problem on an M.  If it were, in fact, a function of the flexing key stick, it should present, apart from season.  And he did respond to your earlier suggestion immediately, asking about how you would propose to deal with that flexibility.  Can you describe your processes?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 09:38
    I am inclined to think (now) that the problem is a combination of both of these factors (keybed flex AND long flexible keys).

    I had not thought about the key issue before this, however as the humidity increases, wood becomes increasingly weaker and more flexible (if you want to permanently bend wood you don't dry it out...you make it hot and MOIST with steam...then you can pretty much turn it into a pretzel).  So, with a VERY humid environment (and theorizing that the keys are a bit more on the flexible side than some others of its breed right from the get-go) they could in fact be flexing quite a bit which would cause all kinds of problems especially under vigorous playing. 

    Now, COUPLED with an unstable keybed...need I say more?

    What would I do if faced with this situation?

    1) Determine if key flex is an issue by coating both sides of ONE (maybe two) key(s) with thin epoxy...let it cure completely and compare the feel (seesaw on the BR with pressure) and then the real-time action of it with its untreated neighbors. If significant, I would discuss the matter with the client and hopefully they would agree to make this improvement globally. (BTW this treatment can take a somewhat mediocre instrument and turn it into a powerhouse in some cases).

    2) I would resolve to bed the keyframe FROM SCRATCH every time I see it (or at the very least check each stud and adjust accordingly). The process really takes no more than 5 minutes if you get into the habit. If this is necessary it simply is a reflection of the idiosyncrasies of this instrument (pianos are like people...alot).

    3) Definitely pursue some humidity control. Owners need to know that they are accelerating the demise of their piano if they fail to address this issue responsibly.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 10:04
    Peter -
    The reason I'm less inclined to attribute the problem to key flex, in this instance, is that it seems to be a measurable problem, regardless of the actual key acceleration.  Even with the minimal information provided, I think it's fair to look elsewhere.  
    If you were to employ the epoxy-coating method, would your objective be to stiffen the key or to seal out moisture, or, of course, both?  You claimed that excessive moisture would increase the flexibility of the wood, so, from a sealing perspective, it would seem to make sense to dry the keys down, before epoxy application.  (I don't know how thoroughly key would have to be coated to act as such a seal.).  
    Also, if you did have that "VERY humid environment" you cited, one would think that it would be showing up in all the other aspects of the piano.  As I mentioned, Thomas does not cite actual RH%'s, either for this 'tropical' period or the 'dry' season.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 11:51
    David,

    I hear you. Sealing against moisture is not the objective as this would be essentially impossible anyway. Stiffening the key(s) IS the objective. I don't think that the actual RH at the time of application would matter much (if any).  Initially this would be a simple "process of elimination", since it is not uncommon for multiple factors to be involved in a complicated machine such as a piano action at al. 

    If this were to make ZERO DIFFERENCE on one or two keys, then I would not waste my time doing the entire set  and concentrate on other things.

    If Chris has a good or even better suggestion for stiffening the keys, I'm in...i want to hear it. Even better would be more elaboration on how this might be affecting the situation at hand.

    I learned from Charles Rempel at DC that their research shows a sweet spot for strength/flexibility at about 42%-45% (obviously explains their system settings). Above this proportionally reduces strength and increases flexibility...below, the exact opposite.  Perhaps he could chime in here to elaborate.

    Anyway this is the primary reasoning.  I believe Chris has a valid point.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 12:08
    Peter -
    Appreciate the info, truly.  We're caught up, once more, in theorizing with limited information.  You skipped over my point that the problem, as Thomas has presented it, exists as a measurement (the key dip has changed) apart from affecting dynamic function. As the former, it has NOTHING to do with key flex.  Otherwise, sure.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-19-2018 12:19
    The idea of changing the glides every season would not be appealing to me. I never suggested that key flex was the sole problem. 
    I always look at pianos from a If it were mine point of view.
    So if the D was mine and it was exhibiting that problem, I would stiffen the keys, in the past I used fiberglass resin, and if that is not enough, the more labor intensive maple veneer onto the sides next. Then if the key bed were flexing, I would probably be leaning towards a piece of angle iron for support. Then I'd keep my D in a climate controlled room.
    I just don't know how the church would feel about those things
    -Chris 





  • 19.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 13:08
    Hi Chris -
    Actually, I suspect you DO know how the church would feel about those things, unless it's a Mega, in which case, we should just push for a total climate control system for the space, but they'd probably already have that.
    I am curious as to your fiberglass resin method.  You seem to have some data, or at least an empirical sense that the maple veneer is more effective than the fiberglass resin.  But if, as you posit, this was your D, would you consider dispensing with the (presumed) half-round balance bearing, replacing with a flat punching, and installing over-length key buttons, of a wood-type and grain orientation that would maximize stiffness?  Obviously more labor intensive than the first two, but would it be more effective?  All should be easy enough to measure - deflection.

    On the other hand, if periodically resetting the glides solved the problem, I'm not sure what the lack of appeal would be.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 14:09
    It was mentioned by an instructor at Lancaster (I forget who) that there are quite a few "well known, high level" techs that use the glides to adjust key dip (yes, I know the factory says not to...blah, blah, blah), but they do it anyway (within reason) for just this sort of thing.

    Stuff happens...are you going to re-level the keys and re-set dip every 6 months?  I don't think so. They're adjustable for a reason. As long as you don't exceed the design/performance parameters...just like nose bolts. We know what the factory SAYS, but we also know what they DO!

    If Tom is the only one dealing with this piano he can control the situation. It could get complicated if others were involved with competing ideas. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2018 12:30
    The earlier question as to the vintage of the "D" was a good one. Not all pianos have the same type of keyframe. Yamahas are rather flexible and Yamaha techs routinely make small keydip adjustments with the glides. S&S keyframes were historically rather stiffer and, I think, less susceptible to the same procedure. I understand that S&S keyframes became more flexible when Kluge started making them. I serviced a 1950 "D" with Pratt-Read keys a few years ago. I could hold down the back of the key and easily depress the front quite a bit. It had 2" long key buttons and, with the introduction of the wonderful half-rounds, there was no shoe.

    Bob Anderson
    Tucson, AZ




  • 22.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-19-2018 14:25
    Thanks for all suggestions. Piano is on a spider dolly and not sure if wheel direction. Piano on stage in 1000 seat sanctuary with oversized air unit blowing direct air on instrument. Piano has three damp chaser rods installed under soundboard....too many.! Requires monthly tuning with many pitch lowering tunings. In no hurry to install string cover and undercover ; believe conditions are too horrible for those items to give us much relief.
    Today returned to Piano. Humidity had dropped, so did many of the issues. Keydip closer but In spite of no play in keys while pressing on glides, went ahead and lowered glides 1/2 turn for all notes. Dip back good....some drop, back check reg. And rep. Spring adjustment.
    Keys were bound against key upstop rail. Of course gave it relief.
    The beast is back as a normal beast!
    Thanks again to all of you. Just to add fuel to the fire not only do I have the D problem but Have this same problem with another D, B, M , L and S...but this is the worst. This one acts up every year.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 23.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 17:31
    Wheel direction a non-issue with spider dolly.  (Unless perhaps all the bolts on the device are loose!)
    And perhaps, In the X rated version of this thread, Thomas would actually cite some measured RH values, just for thrills.
    Regarding keys bound against key upstop rail:  was that actually affecting the key level? ?

    So, Thomas... who is it that complains about these conditions?  Who is being made unhappy?  Who would have the leverage to make a case for mitigation?  Does the institution have at least some resources that could be directed at this?



    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-19-2018 17:41
    I do have a Hobo data logger and the Min. Of Music is well aware of the humidity issues but I think finance committee calls the shots.
    I know from measuring RH in other buildings it’s off the charts. I don’t measure because they do seem to care. It’s kinda like some smokers with lung cancer. He ain’t gonna quit! Thanks, I appreciate you.
    I strongly suspect the upstop rail may have been a factor in the key dip problem.
    I again told today the Min. Of Music the issue.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 25.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 18:13
    Well, with glide bolts and key stop rail in our tool box, I think we've alighted upon a rather speedy way of establishing both key level and dip.  I can't wait to try it out.:)

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Posted 07-19-2018 19:05
    Thanks, it plays like a D should play!

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 27.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-19-2018 20:06
    Peter,

    Like you I prefer to bed the keyframe (balance rail studs) from scratch using the WNG tool. Takes about 5 minutes or so.

    With that said.... What's the difference between bedding the keyframe every time vs. changing the studs seasonally? Is there a difference, or is it just the same name for two separate things?

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2018 11:15



    What's the difference between bedding the keyframe every time vs. changing the studs seasonally?

    Benjamin -
    In one way, there's no difference.  Both, as framed, are equally misconceived.  I would hope you wouldn't do either unless there was a significant problem.  I'm not sure what you mean by 'everytime'.  Would this be another step in your full-service approach?  If there is no problem, you're more likely to be making one, no matter what tools or skill level you possess.  

    There's enough variation in the acceptable bedding process that could end up unnecessarily altering regulation. As Peter said, there are "design/performance parameters" within which this particular sub-function will work as intended, and yet the regulation as a whole, being built upon that basic step, can easily be degraded. The theoretical 'minus', or 'too-little' value for keyframe bedding is the absence of any contact... leaving any amount of float. The amount of 'positive' bedding is a function of building in resilience for climate changes (so that it will never go below 0) or, in the case of a collapsed keyframe, creating enough gap to prevent the wood slats from contacting the keybed in vigorous playing, or possibly building in some amount of 'stress', to make frame more rigid. This last one depends upon precise capture of the back rail by the dags; otherwise it would tend to lift the back rail and create noise similar to a floating balance rail. Other manifestations of excessive glide pressure would be unresponsive una-corda shift action.

    Keep in mind that the situation Thomas wrote about was an extreme example of what we all deal with to some extent.  There's nothing wrong with checking frame bedding when at the piano, If you have balance rail knocking, you can (and, I think, should) take the time to determine its source before wholesale screw turning.  The objective would be to disturb as little of the functioning (?) regulation as possible.  Dealing with the symptoms of excessive glide pressure is much more difficult, as turning glides up will certainly reduce key dip and aftertouch.

    It's not a routine adjustment.






    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Steinway D key dip

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-20-2018 14:50
    I'm in agreement with David. All I do is make a quick check (5 seconds) by rapping on each stud with the center of my hand. I am only looking for something NOT in contact with the keybed, which is going to give me a sound. I will then adjust THAT stud...and recheck. I do not "re-set" bedding regularly. I have no pianos that need that.

    A very sensitive pianist can feel when even one stud is not in contact (though they don't know what it is). They know it when you correct it and they now feel the firmness.  Its amazing sometimes what difference you can make on a quarter turn (or less) of a screw.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------