Hi Benjamin,
I was referring to our past discussion of whether two separate passes for a pitch raise and tuning, or one combined pitch raise / tuning. (Think CyberTuner's Smart Tune Mode or Verituner's equivalent.)Okay, I understand. When considering using something like Verituner's Fine Tune Plus Overpull, or what I presume is CyberTuner's equivalent (Smart Tune), for a one pass pitch raise and tune, I think it is the role of the piano technician to evaluate - as is reasonably possible - the client in several ways: playing level (beginner, intermediate, etc.); ear sensitivity (are they aware that the piano was even out of tune - could they tell?); piano quality/state of wear; and even general financial status. I'm not suggesting that the tech needs to interrogate a client, but let's set up an example of extremes. In one case you have a 7-foot Kawai RX series nearly new excellent condition grand in a million dollar home and the pianist is some level of professional. If the piano were five cents or less flat, I might have a discussion about doing a one-pass pitch raise and tune. Any more flat and we don't have that discussion - but rather I tell the client that we need to do a separate pitch raise and then a fine tuning. And in this sort of case, depending on how flat the piano had been, I might well have a discussion about another tuning in a couple months. At the other extreme we have a little old lady (and hey, I LOVE little old ladies!!!) who couldn't hear you knocking at the door (I've had this happen - after arriving on my loud-piped motorcycle!), lives in a small, shabby, house in a run-down neighborhood, has a 1948 Gulbransen spinet with 847,000 miles on it (but still miraculously functions), and mentions that the only reason she called you - she thought the piano sounded fine - was because her son was over the other day and told her "mom, you really need to get this piano tuned because it is way flat and way out of tune!" In this latter case, if the piano was maybe even 10 to 20 cents flat, I wouldn't even have a discussion about pitch raising and just do a one-pass raise/tune for my regular tuning fee. If it were more flat, I would try to explain the situation to her and let her decide. If she told me that finances were tight - now no nasty notes to me - I have only done this maybe two or three times in 20 years - I might consider doing as much as a 50-cent pitch raise and "fine" tuning in one pass while using my Vertuner's Fine Tune Plus Overpull. This latter example may sound pretty extreme, but the client can't hear well, has significant financial constraints, and darn if three or four passes on that miserable little piano will ever make it sound good with the glass-hard hammers, the extreme false beats from F4 to C88, the tubby bass strings, the horrible bass/tenor break, the zinging dampers, etc., etc., etc!
Of course, most situations fall somewhere between these two extremes. I guess you just need to use your best judgement. Use your experience to have a pretty good idea of what you'll end up with in any given situation with the one-pass raise/tune.
Regardless of which method you choose for this situation, would you recommend a follow up tuning within a short time (say two or three weeks), or not? From your post I gather you would recommend a follow up tuning within a short period, yes?I do not specifically usually recommend a followup tuning within a short period. Like David Love explained, whenever I had raise the pitch of a piano five cents or more, I explain to them that because of the pitch raise the piano will be less stable and the piano will go out of tune more quickly that it might had it been tuned on a regular basis for the past number of years. I tell the client that they may want to tune the piano sooner than the normal tuning interval this first time because of the pitch raise, but when they want to tune is up to them. If they don't hear it going out of tune and they would rather not spend the money, then wait until the normal tuning interval. If their ears tell them that it is going out of tune after a month or two and they are willing to spend the money, then call me. I also have a discussion with them about how long piano tunings last. I explain about how a stable or unstable environment affects the tuning & pitch. I explain to them that most average beginner/intermediate players in a modern air-conditioned private home here in Central Florida are happy tuning once per year. I tell them that I tune my piano at home every few months as I hear notes going out. At the other extreme I tell them about the $150,000 concert grand and Ruth Eckert Hall that the Florida Orchestra uses is tuned every afternoon before every performance AND touched up at intermission! "Now what is wrong with that instrument? Nothing! It is just that the orchestra folks are that picky about the tuning being as perfect as is possible. Notes will start to wander a bit within a day!" THAT usually opens up their eyes! Sometimes I'll also mention "what does one do every time they pick up a violin or a guitar to play it? They tune it!" I then explain that all the same factors that make a guitar or violin go out of tune are at work on the piano, making it go out of tune. I do mention that the piano generally is more stable than those two other instruments because of the large very stiff cast iron plate, but otherwise they are subject to the same influences that throw an instrument out of tune.
Well, I could go on, but my fingers are getting tired! I hope some of this might help. No two situations are the same and you just have to rely on your experience, education, and best judgement to give the client best value.
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Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com813-684-3505
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2018 22:46
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
Hi Terry,
I was referring to our past discussion of whether two separate passes for a pitch raise and tuning, or one combined pitch raise / tuning. (Think CyberTuner's Smart Tune Mode or Verituner's equivalent.)
Regardless of which method you choose for this situation, would you recommend a follow up tuning within a short time (say two or three weeks), or not?
From your post I gather you would recommend a follow up tuning within a short period, yes?
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Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2018 18:43
From: Terrence Farrell
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
I'm having a bit of trouble following exactly what you are doing. Like most have stated, I do a pitch raise and tuning in one sitting and then tell the customer that the piano will tend to be a bit unstable and that the piano will likely go out of tune more quickly this time because of the pitch raise, but that next time we tune it should be more stable.
Here's the conditions of our theoretical situation. You find the piano at -40 cents and there about. After two passes, the piano is as stable as you can make it on that trip. (As far as its flat, take as many passes as you need to get it to 440.)
I ask why two passes? You should be able to get it up to pitch in one pass.
I'm not talking about putting off trying to do a fine tuning after the pitch adjustment; I think that's a given. I'm referring mostly to stability. Should we accept any slight shift out of tune as our fault or that of the piano's drastic change in tension?
Here it sounds like you have given the piano a pitch raise and a fine tuning in one sitting. Strings will start to go out of tune pretty darn quickly - not the piano tuner's fault.
Or, should we give it an extra pass (even after it was moved less than a half cent in the last pass) at the same appointment for more stability, then call it good?
No extra pass. Call it good - or at least as good as it will reasonably be. Up to about 100 cents flat, I will do a single pass pitch raise and then a tuning pass and call it done. I am aware that, especially for a large pitch raise, that the final tuning will be a good bit short of the best that could be done. IMHO, for most common situations, it is not worth doing extra passes (and charging for them!) to try to get the piano more stable or give it a better tuning. The darn thing is going to be unstable and will go out of tune more quickly than had it been tuned regularly. I suggest (nicely) that they basically just bear with the slightly unstable piano for a short period of time - a retraining period, if you will. This is what I would do in most common situations. This is NOT what I might do for a professional/accomplished pianist who wants their piano as well tuned and stable as possible. THAT could be multiple passes and perhaps a short-time return trip for retuning.
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Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
Brandon, Florida
terry@farrellpiano.com
813-684-3505
Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2018 23:54
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
Thanks for the input all! Much appreciated.
Here's the conditions of our theoretical situation. You find the piano at -40 cents and there about. After two passes, the piano is as stable as you can make it on that trip. (As far as its flat, take as many passes as you need to get it to 440.)
I'm not talking about putting off trying to do a fine tuning after the pitch adjustment; I think that's a given. I'm referring mostly to stability. Should we accept any slight shift out of tune as our fault or that of the piano's drastic change in tension?
Or, should we give it an extra pass (even after it was moved less than a half cent in the last pass) at the same appointment for more stability, then call it good?
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Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2018 22:56
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
I, too, agree with what David has said. Pitch raise or no, leave the piano at pitch and in tune when you leave.
What is missing from this conversation is how big a pitch adjustment is being considered. If it's only 20< or 30< then a pitch raise immediately followed with a fine tuning should hold just fine. If it's, say, 60< to 100< then I feel a pitch raise, or two, followed immediately with a fine tuning would be my call with an explanation to the customer, (before work is even started), that this tuning will not hold for as long as they might want due to the extreme change in tension. It will likely require a followup tuning in less than the normal six months.
The only time I would go back at no charge would be if the tuning had actually slipped. Like if I did a poor job of setting the pin. And even then I would only feel responsible for a no charge visit if the customer contacts me within a day or two of the original tuning. After that it's a combination of what the piano is doing all by itself and the environment in which it lives. Neither of which are my fault.
It's important that the customer understands what the situation is and what can be expected before you begin work. It is also important to remind the customer what to expect from the work you just completed when you are done. Don't leave room for the customer to blame you for a normal situation.
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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2018 17:20
From: David Bauguess
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
My preference is to leave the piano sounding very good after one visit, with the expectation that stability will be reasonably good considering the big pitch change and that it will, with subsequent regular tunings, get even better. I explain to the customer that I with go through the piano as much as I need to until it is ready to fine tune. I like to have it within 2 or 3 cents when I do that last pass. For larger pitch preparations (pitch raises), I'll do two passes (occasionally 3)- whatever is necessary to end up within ±2-3< for the fine tuning.
I simply don't know if there is an advantage to getting the tuning "close enough, i.e. A440" and then doing a finer tuning in say a month.I prefer to do it all in one visit, and I recommend the next tuning at about 6 months. I believe it is a more efficient use of my time, plus I think I leave the piano in a better state that makes a better customer impression of the work I've done. I think I get the job done more efficiently, save the customer some money vs. two trips, and I don't take the chance of them not following through with the tuning a month later. Of course they pay more at once than it divided payments. I always make the point that what I'm doing is remedying the result of the piano not having been tuned for (often) many years or even decades. "We're making up for lost time!"
I don't say this is the best approach but it's simply what I do.
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David Bauguess
Grand Junction CO
970-257-1750
Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2018 15:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
After a pitch adjustment, I tell the owner that the piano is now in a position to be tuned. I say it's like you can't wax a dirty floor, we just swept/washed it. It is an appreciable tuning but the polish comes from a re-application in a week or so. Even If it were tuned again that day, it would still shift a little from the structure reacting to the added compression over the next few days. How much would depend on the amount of change. I also use 'you can't wax a dirty car'.
Those two analogies seem to clarify the point of the affect of tension change on the whole piano. I also explain the over-pull I used and where the pitch is at present from where I pulled it to, adding that each section requires a different amount of o/p. Then I say, "You can't fight Physics"
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Regards,
Jon Page
Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2018 14:19
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: Follow Up Tunings
Hello All,
Situation: You just raised the pitch on a piano. Aurally or electronically, it doesn't matter. The piano is now at 440. Do you recommend a follow up tuning? If so, do you do it then, or wait a few weeks?
I've heard arguments from both sides before. One says, it's holding pitch at 440, so if it falls out of tune, it's the tuner's fault, and it's unethical to charge for a return trip. The other side says, the piano's tension was just shifted so dramatically. There's no way in the real world that one could expect the piano to remain in perfect tune until it settles a week or more, then is retuned.
Thoughts?
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Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
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