Discussion: View Thread

Mason BB capo friction

  • 1.  Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2013 12:52
    BBs tend to have rending issues, especially in the capo area, that we attribute to the high angle from capo to the aliquot bars in front of the tuning pins. I was just removing strings to restring the capo section of a BB and noticed that the strings had an extra bend to them, about 1 cm behind the termination bend. Turns out they were bearing against more of the capo than the sharp-ish termination edge.

    I investigated and found that the person who re-strung the instrument before had installed those aliquot bars using contact cement to hold them in place, which added a good 1 mm to their height (lots of contact cement). Also, the plate had been refinished, and the paint was rather thick. So I scraped away the contact cement, scraped the paint down where the bars lie on the plate, and also filed a bit on the back side of the capo. Result is that the strings will now bear only at the termination edge.

    This is a late M & H (70s I think), so it could well be that there were manufacturing issues as well as problems caused by the previous rebuilder. Anyway, something to watch out for. This instrument was a bear to tune solidly in the high treble, really impossible. Now I know why.


    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-25-2013 13:44
    Fred,

    I mentioned this a long time ago about rendering the strings on a BB (I have two side by side in a church). I customarily do a return visit within two weeks to catch the the ones that didn't stay put.

    More-so, I especially remember someone giving me flak (who's name I won't mention) for doing that return trip as a courtesy follow-up call without charging. (Account is only 1/2 mile away from where I live and has been serviced by me since 1980)

    To heck with that person and their flagrant comments. I defy anyone to say that can stabilize a BB in one visit  :-)

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 3.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2013 21:44
    Keith,

    In regards to your "courtesy trip", Bravo! I know this isn't the topic of this thread, but I've never been taken advantage of when I do the occasional courtesy visit. On the contrary. I've received countless referrals, nice tips, hugs, homemade jelly and numerous other goodies, and someone even gave me a quarter beef and some nice elk steaks. Keep on being courteous and let the naysayers stand on their side of the fence and bark all they want.

    Best,
    Jim

    -------------------------------------------
    James Busby
    Mt Pleasant UT
    801-422-3400
    -------------------------------------------








  • 4.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2013 18:53
    Fred,

    I would say that "manufacturing issues" were quite likely. I restrung a BB here at SF State a few years ago - and when the strings were off, I found several agraffes in the tenor really loose. So I tightened them down (no, couldn't find matching replacement agraffes, so left the old ones in) proceeded to restring the beast, and when the strings were up to tension, it turned out that the strings that went through the loose agraffes were buzzing against the plate. It appears that the stringer at the factory instead of fixing the problem simply turned the agraffes up enough turns to get the strings up above the plate... I ended up grinding enough metal off that plate so that the strings could clear it with the agraffes fully tightened down...

    I am never surprised any more by what I find in pianos that came out of East Rochester in the 70's and 80's... There was that AA in Sudbury, MA with a pinblock that...  Never mind, I have to get some work done (I could fill up the rest of the day with Aeolian nightmares...)

    -------------------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    A-Major Piano Services
    Albany, CA 94706
    510-558-0777
    custos3@comcast.net

    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2013 21:33
    I really don't know if it was an original condition or one caused by the previous rebuilder, in this case. One thing that seems clear is that the profile of the capo is such that it is quite sharp at the front termination (close to a 90 degree angle), and the back of the capo profile is at a considerably lesser angle to compensate - to give it enough metal to hold up, not just a sharp, unsupported razor edge. So it could be partly design, where with any care being taken, the back side of the capo might be dressed a bit if there was danger of the strings contacting it. In this case, the strings really contacted it, enough to leave a second bend in the wire. Part of it was, as I said, build up of the aliquot bars (contact cement - completely unnecessary - and extra paint. Removing that cement, some paint, and dressing the back of the capo, and there is plenty of clearance. I don't know if I needed to dress the back of the capo, but I did for extra insurance.

    Still, such a thing could have happened even in the "good old days" of M & S quality. I guess Aeolian or American bought them in the 20s if memory serves. I know rendering problems are pretty common in pianos of that vintage as well. I've always just ascribed them to age of strings, rust, and the high angle. But I am wondering. I haven't had the opportunity to restring any over the years, myself.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2013 22:20
    Mason & Hamlin has a long and checkered history of being sold and resold, acquired and re-acquired. Let's start in the 20's (by which time it has already gone through about 5 ownerships)  American Piano Co. got control of it through some financial shenanigans in 1922, and then sold it to Aeolian just before Aeolian acquired American in 1932 - which is when the Boston factory was closed and the manufacture moved to the East Rochester, NY campus. From what I know, quality kept pretty good through the 30's and 40's, but then started sliding and by the 70's they were manufacturing crap that somewhat resembled Mason & Hamlin. In 1985 CitiBank seized the assets of Aeolian, and PrattReed/Sohmer ended up with M&H - moving manufacture to Ivoriton, CT. They actually built some M&H's there - but never finished them before Sohmer/PR went under in 1988 - Camilleri Rebuilders did, from what I hear. I saw a few of those in Boston when I was at North Bennet Street School - they were virtually unplayable. In 1989, Falcone acquired Sohmer/Mason & Hamlin, changed its name from "Falcone" to "Mason & Hamlin" and resumed production in Haverhill, MA (by then Bud Greer - who poured $18,000,000 into the venture - kicked Santi Falconi back to Sicily and took over himself). In 1995 Bud pulled the plug on the venture (they never did get any sort of systematic production going) and went into Chapter 7 (liquidation). A couple local piano hustlers playing at piano rebuilding - Pete Murphy and Wolf (forget his last name - he actually had a pet wolf) talked Bud into signing the assets over to them, successfully petitioned for chapter 11 (reorganization) moved their rebuilding operation into the factory building and restarted new M&H piano production on a shoestring. I actually worked there for 3 weeks as the action floor foreman (the regular foreman went on a cruise with one of their CC's)  - which meant that I got to regulate and voice two BB's and one A. It was supposed to be my training for being their tech representative in California (I was in the process of moving there - so why not?) The pianos weren't all that bad - a bit sloppy in places, but sounded and played pretty well. They were using Renner action parts and Kluge keyboards. Soon after  I got to California, PianoDisc offered some money to the bankruptcy court for creditors - and so ended the saga of a couple second-rate piano rebuilders from Watertown, MA playing at piano manufacturing (and my corporate piano career). The instruments PianoDisc have been putting out that I have seen are pretty decent, if you like very bright tone...

    Anyway, that's a gross oversimplification - but just because it has the Mason & Hamlin name on it, and it has 88 keys, doesn't mean anything, really...


    -------------------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    A-Major Piano Services
    Albany, CA 94706
    510-558-0777
    custos3@comcast.net

    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-26-2013 08:39
    One of my customers has a 1970s "B." It's seven feet long. Quality control was such that they only stamped one "B" on the plate! With exceptional humidity control, it stays in tune rather well...most of the time. The action is so irregular that only the owner can really play it, and she's a piano teacher. The plate finishing is very rough, and the aliquot plates jut out toward the capo, making for very poor rendering. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 8.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2013 08:51
    We have a very old M&H "B" that's barely 5' long.  I haven't dated it as I never really wanted to know all that bad.  I 'could' be a nice piano if we rebuilt it, but it's pretty shot right now.  It's in our dance theatre classroom and gets severe treatment.

    Israel, Do you know much about the model B?

    Thanks
    Paul


    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2013 01:52
    Paul,

    I haven't done any extensive work on any of those - just tuned about a dozen or so over the span of my career (some regularly). Typically from the 30's - usually quite badly worn. I'm have been servicing one from 1948 for about 10 years now  that had been rebuilt sometime in the 90's by one of the more conscientious rebuilders around here. It's pretty mediocre, but I never did anything with it but tune it (it's at a community center - no budget, it was a donation and I discount the tunings...) so I really have no specifics to share about it.  So I really don't have much I could tell you about the the model B. My impression is that they didn't build a whole lot of them...

    -------------------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    A-Major Piano Services
    Albany, CA 94706
    510-558-0777
    custos3@comcast.net

    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-28-2013 01:40
    Ed,

    A 7-foot M&H would be a model "BB". The model "B" is much shorter - around 5+ feet. I suppose the quality control might have been so bad that they stamped the wrong model designation on the plate? Or one of the B's on the stamp wore out - and nobody noticed?    :-)

    On the BB that I restrung at SF State, the action geometry was completely screwed up. I did not work ion the action - Margie (the other tech here) and I typically split the rebuilding jobs. But from what she told me, it appears that the bore length was too long  and the hammers were pitched forward (toward the player) by somewhere around 5 degrees. She typically bores hammers herself, so she reduced both the bore length and the angle - and it is now actually possible to regulate that action...

    Another BB I examined soon after moving to California, the key ration was ridiculous - I don't remember the numbers, but it was way off. And the touchweight was above 60 gm. - with really worn and loose action centers. It appears that the weighoff was strictly pattern - but the pattern was probably suited to a much different action geometry. Plus the keys looked like there were cut by a chainsaw...
    -------------------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    A-Major Piano Services
    Albany, CA 94706
    510-558-0777
    custos3@comcast.net

    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-28-2013 06:56
    Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. It is 7' long, to all appearances built as a "BB," but the stamp is just "B," a mistake in the stamping process, or someone just expressing themselves on a Friday afternoon. I don't presume it was a "B" that was accidentally made 2 feet longer, but in that factory...? :-) ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 12.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-01-2013 11:37
    Checking my records, I see that the BB I opened this thread with was made in 1965, not the 70s. It has some issues, but not really major ones. When I compare with, say, Baldwin and Steinway of late 60s through 70s, I don't find the Aeolian Rochester products to be particularly bad, in general - talking about 60s through mid 70s anyway. They aren't what we might consider premium pianos compared to what is available today, but they are better than middle of the road for their time period.

    This BB does have some key issues. Strangely, the key buttons have bushing alignments that vary, sometimes a LOT from key to key. Usually this is not an issue: the button blanks are all machined and bushed at right angles to a long strip of wood, then the strip is glued to a set of keys and cut apart with the keys, yielding the correct angles. I don't get how they manufactured the buttons. No jigs, just eyeballing it badly? Doesn't make sense. Also, the bottoms of the naturals didn't have the mortise cut to miss the sharp felt punchings. I was trying to get enough aftertouch, and removing punchings just wasn't increasing key dip beyond a certain point - and they felt spongy. I took all the keys off and chiseled where you could see the black marks caused by the keys contacting those punchings over the years.

    As it happens, I did a two day prep job on a Mason A from 1975 last week (private customer), and it had no real issues at all, just standard work that came out well. Nice little piano. We have quite a few M & H pianos from the 60s and 70s here, I think due to a piano prof (my own teacher as a masters student) who loved them. His own (probably 20s or earlier) was a BB with the ivory about worn through. He was probably responsible for the fact that the department bought a BB and a 50 upright, and the large performance hall bought a CC (and the large hall at NM Tech in Socorro also bought a CC - he had connections there). And a UNM piano student from the 50s/60s era who became a piano technician and opened a retail store started out with M & H, later switched to Yamaha. So a lot of people here bought them. I have quite a few in my customer base.

    Now the Aeolian Memphis plant is another story. Wow! I visited it (my first piano factory tour) in 1980, and it was a real eye opener about just how shoddily you could build a PSO. But that was the era of the race to the bottom, in terms of quality and price. Thankfully that era seems to have passed a good while ago.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
    -------------------------------------------








  • 13.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-01-2013 12:10
    Fred,

    That's typical of the era - the sort of uneven quality from instrument to instrument, ranging from the sort of sloppiness in the BB you described to action geometry that's pretty much impossible to regulate with anything approaching reasonable specs. And progressively "cheaper" components - both in the actions (e.g. felt, leather) and in the structure (e.g. pinblocks).  Once in a while you do run across a "nice" instrument from that time - accidents will happen...  :-)

    I have come across many M&H pianos in my 11 years in Boston - where they remained popular even after manufacture moved to E. Rochester - and they were quite popular in California too (judging by how many are still kicking around here) and the basic pattern of plunging quality over time is quite apparent in both places. It didn't get back to reasonable standards until the Falcone days, ant their early ones weren't anything to write home about either - but they improved very quickly, from what I remember.

    -------------------------------------------
    Israel Stein RPT
    A-Major Piano Services
    Albany, CA 94706
    510-558-0777
    custos3@comcast.net

    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-02-2013 11:22
    The point I was making is that the unevenness in quality of that era (late 60s through early 80s) was industry wide, at least in the US. Think of Steinway's action parts of the late 70s, where the machinery had got so bad they finally bought parts from Renner for a while. Their short-tailed hammers, that mean long check distance, meaning weaker springs and lower drop to make it function - badly. Not to mention the whole teflon fiasco, plate positioning issues, key leading done with the bushings too tight, etc., etc. And then there was Baldwin, moving to Arkansas to escape the unions of Ohio, and the horrible quality of production for a few years in the 70s while they trained a whole new set of workers, plus the pinblock made of glue with a bit of wood thrown in, and lots of issues. Not to mention Kimball's "Bosie copies," Wurlitzer, etc.

    In that context, the Aeolian Rochester production doesn't look so bad until the very end, early 80s. It's also the situation that set the stage for Yamaha and Kawai to shine: actual quality control! Wow! (Cars, the same thing).

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
    -------------------------------------------








  • 15.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-26-2013 14:43
    Here are some before and after pictures of a M&H BB I rebuilt a couple years ago. The tuning pin webbing is so high relative to the string plane that the string angle between counterbearing bar and agraffe or capo are extreme. The plate is thick in this area so I did some grinding to decrease the angle. It is still difficult to tune this piano, but it is better now.

    Tenor Before: Notice especially the low tenor angle.


    Tenor After: I added the brass half-round as a string rest. The low tenor is much improved. Notice the pinned agraffes - originals that I reconditioned.


    Treble Before: Yikes! That is quite the angle. The top treble broke lots of strings over the years. Tuning was a real treat.


    Treble after: Lot's of grinding and I moved the counterbearing rest forward (toward the tuning pins) to decrease the angle. I judged the decrease in angle to out weigh the possible noise issues that a longer duplex segment might present. 



    Top Treble after grinding and moving the counterbearing bar forward to decrease the angle. Yes the old counterbearings are gone. I used brass half-round pinned in place. The angle is still too great, but it is better.


    Yes, the plate is still rough as a cob, as M&H pianos were in those days. They seem to have made almost no effort to smooth these out before shooting them. 

    And yes that is a Wapin bridge.
    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-26-2013 15:31
    Alan,

    Thank you for sharing these pics and showing your special efforts at attempting to improve that incredible angle. And the comments that accompanied those pics were superb.

    Oh yeah, string breakage, definitely on the main one of the two I service.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv
    -------------------------------------------



  • 17.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2013 16:44
    Hi-

    Not directly about quality of plate grinding or bearing angles, but we have a couple later BB's from WNG before composite parts came out.  I restrung the treble on one, replacing all drill rod string rests with solid brass.  This alone made a huge improvement and I can't wait to do the other.  Never could understand why a manufacturer would miss something like that.  It can't be about cost.  Thanks Israel for the history summary...  I forgot or wasn't clear on the whole time line. 

    best,

    Dennis.

    -------------------------------------------
    Dennis Johnson, R.P.T.
    St. Olaf College
    Music Dept.
    Northfield, MN 55337
    sta2ned@stolaf.edu
    (507) 786-3587
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-26-2013 21:16
    I just checked this discussion and see that, on my computer at least, one of the "after" photos is very distorted (squished side to side) and this makes the string angle even worse than original. Maybe it's not distorted for everyone. Anyone else had an issue with uploaded photos being distorted?

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2013 22:55

    If you "attach" a photo, as in upload it to the library - as opposed to putting it in the text of the message - there is never distortion. I think it is a matter of html formatting of the message. Putting photos "in line" does other things to formatting as well. It's sort of convenient sometimes. Not in this case. It's harder for me to read that message partly because I can't see the whole message in one window, I have to scroll side to side. Not counting the distortion.



    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
    -------------------------------------------








  • 20.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-27-2013 13:48
    Yeah I did a couple annoying things: I didn't trim the messages and I inserted the pics instead of attach the pics. Live and learn.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-26-2013 21:25
    Here's what the tenor really looks like (unless the site distorts the photo again):



    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 22.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-26-2013 22:15
    Alan,

    I just dragged the pic to my desktop, double click on it and distortion is gone.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 23.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-27-2013 10:14
    Question, Alan,
    Script above pic 2 says, " Notice the pinned agraffes - originals that I reconditioned."

    What are pinned agraffes, please?

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 24.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-28-2013 11:37
    If you look closely at the side of the agraffes in the photo, you will see the end of a steel cylinder (a pin) that runs through the agraffe above the holes and perpendicular to the string. The strings bear against this pin instead of bearing against brass. BTW, I am not at all sure that pinned agraffes are any better than plain old agraffes. But on this piano the agraffe sections are easier to tune than especially the first capo section, which still has a very steep angle.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------


    What are pinned agraffes, please?

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 25.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-28-2013 12:45
    Got it, Alan. Subtle activity. Obviously there was enough room in the agraffe to do this operation. Care to share how you actually drilled the holes and what support you used to keep the agraffe stable while drilling. Might as well ask, what diameter are those steel cylinder pins?

    At your convenience,

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 26.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-30-2013 15:50
    Keith,

    These pinned agraffes were original equipment from the factory.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------





  • 27.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 07-01-2013 00:30
    How about that. Thanks, Alan, for that piece of information.

    I'll definitely look at the agraffes on the two BBs' I service next time out. 

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 28.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-28-2013 12:02
      |   view attached
    Keith, Here's a close-up of the pinned agraffe. I forgot that I had taken this. Photo attached.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------






  • 29.  Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-27-2013 14:33
    On 6/27/2013 12:47 PM, Alan McCoy wrote: > > Yeah I did a couple annoying things: I didn't trim the messages and I > inserted the pics instead of attach the pics. Live and learn. Associated perhaps, but I don't think attached really qualifies. FWIW, for anyone reading anything on a HL list by email, there is no indication on the download listing that an association is present. Open the message, and with an associated photo they get no indication there is a photo if the text doesn't indicate so unless they happen to notice the link at the bottom. With embedded pictures, if the text doesn't indicate pictures (not the case here) there is nothing at all to indicate a photo. They are stripped and no link supplied. Ron N


  • 30.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-27-2013 14:49
    To be more precise, anyone reading posts by email, with the setting of "text" rather than "html" will not see an embedded photo. If you attach it, there will be a link to document. 

    If you get posts text only, you can see embedded photos by going to the site, one way being simply to click on the "reply to discussion" link, which will open a "post reply" window - quoting the message you are replying to below. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:Mason BB capo friction

    Posted 06-27-2013 15:03
    Excellent point, Fred.

    That's why I now put the following information preceding each pic I ever insert within a new post:    [image inserted]

    for folks just like Ron N. That way, he and any others in a likewise position aren't in the dark as to what just took place.

    Then those folks can decide what they want to do about it. Go take a look at my.ptg.org, or disregard altogether.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv