PianoTech Archive

From N&B Brickman <nbb@us.net>

Folks,
	I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C., 
area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or 
Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many 
years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent 
posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about 
the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
		Norman Brickman

----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:17:02 -0800
From: "pianolover 88" <pianolover88@hotmail.com>
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: RE: Used Yamaha U1
Message-ID: <LAW11-F9VofUOKybPZT00077c4e@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Message: 14

the VAST majority of these Imported pianos are indeed "Gray Market", and 
were NOT intended for sale/use in the North American market. While ALL
U1's 
are made in Japan, the pianos sold by authorized Yamaha dealers here are 
"seasoned" for the North American market. Make sure you get the serial 
number of the particular U1 or other yamaha model, then go to the
Official 
yamaka website and input the serial number. It will tell you quickly
what 
you're dealing with. Go here:
http://www.yamaha.com/pianoserials/index.asp

Good luck.

Terry

----Original Message Follows----
From: "marc and tina" <marc_and_tina@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Subject: Used Yamaha U1
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:10:52 -0600

Hello All,

I am in the market for a home piano and the Yamaha U1 floats to the top
of 
my list.  I'm seeing a lot of refurbished U1's on the market that was 
manufactured in the 1970's.  I was wondering if someone could shed some 
light on why there are so many used U1's available from the 1970's? 
Should 
I avoid these or focus on buying a U1 built sometime later?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Christina

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

There is nothing at all inferior about the manufacture of the "grey" market
Yamahas. The only difference is that the "grey" market pianos were
manufactured for consumption in Japan, which has a somewhat humid climate -
and home interiors do not experience the degree of dryness more common in
North American homes (I've also heard reports of something about the manner
in which they tend to heat their homes resulting in less drying). The pianos
made for the Japanese market have wooden components that were dried to a
relatively high moisture content compared to the pianos destined for the
North American market - which are dried to a lower MC.

I have heard many reports of Yamaha grey market pianos literally falling
apart when exposed to very dry climates. I live in Florida, where I have
never seen an indoor humidity dropping below 35% RH, service numerous grey
market Yamahas, and short of a walking center pin or two have never seen a
grey market Yamaha with any discernable humidity-related problem beyond
anything that one might commonly see on any American-made piano.

So, in my book, very little reason to be concerned with a Yamaha grey market
piano if you live in a humid climate and will not be subjecting the piano to
low RHs. Many reasons to be concerned with a Yamaha grey market piano if you
live in a climate that experiences very dry periods and will be subjecting
the piano to low RHs. How low is low and for how long? Not a clue.
Reportedly the 2% RH experienced in Saskatoon is dry enough to make 'em self
destruct, and 35% RH seem to generate no ill effects.

Now you need to be careful about some of these grey market pianos, because I
know that some of them are worn-out university practice-room pianos and the
piano makes an initial stop in Mexico to get new keytops, a fresh coat of
paint and a two-pedal-to-three-pedal conversion to earn the status of
"completely rebuilt"! We have a large importer of these grey market pianos
here in Tampa, and I have seen quite a range in the condition of these
pianos. They get anything from junk to very, very nice pianos. I helped my
son's piano teacher buy a 1983 Yamaha G5 grand from the importer. This piano
is virtually like new, no killer octave, great sound, nice little crown in
the soundboard, excellent action, it looks like new (original finish), she
just loves the piano, and she only paid $7,500 for it. She has had it two or
three years now, still loves it, and it seems to be behaving quite well.

Whereas I would not steer anyone away from a grey market Yamy, I would
suggest to them that the grey market status should earn some reduction in
price.

That's my take on it.

Terry Farrell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "N&B Brickman" <nbb@us.net>


> Folks,
> I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C.,
> area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or
> Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many
> years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent
> posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about
> the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
> Norman Brickman

From Roger Jolly <roger.j@sasktel.net>

At 06:19 AM 1/4/2004, you wrote:
>The



>I have heard many reports of Yamaha grey market pianos literally falling
>apart when exposed to very dry climates. I live in Florida, where I have



>  How low is low and for how long? Not a clue.
>Reportedly the 2% RH experienced in Saskatoon is dry enough to make 'em self
>destruct, and 35% RH seem to generate no ill effects.
>
Hi Terry.
                  Today is Balmy, with lovely sun shine.   Temp -34C with a 
wind chill of -45C.
Warm that air up to your 70F and the moisture content, mmmmmmmmmm RH is 
nothing to worry about..
The gray market pianos around here are a disaster, after a year.  Most are 
sold to very price conscious shoppers,  that seem to care little about 
quality, but solely about brand name.   They get what they deserve.
Even though I am a Yamaha dealer I don't work on them, or take them in on 
trade.
The dealers that carry them, seem to give little, or no service, and hire 
the worst techs in the area to work on them, Snow balling the customer to 
install Damp Chasers,  to solve many of the worn out parts issues,
Have a happy new year all.
Regards Roger 

From J Patrick Draine <draine@comcast.net>

On Jan 4, 2004, at 5:36 AM, N&B Brickman wrote:

> Folks,
> 	I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C.,
> area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or
> Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many
> years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent
> posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about
> the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?

Perhaps the aspect of "seasoning" that occurs which the average piano 
in more northern climes often endures, shoved up against a hot air vent 
or baseboard heat. And periods of time (currently diminishing in my 
neighborhood due to global warming) when the outside temperatures are 
10 above or 10 below zero Farenheit, which really superdries the air 
throughout our customers' homes.

Patrick

From "Phil Bondi" <phil@philbondi.com>

Norman, I concur with what Terry Farrell said about the gray markets
in Florida..I don't see as many as he does up there, but you
definitely take your chances with them considering the corporation
will not honor any warranties, which for the most part, have run out
anyway.

My personal experiences with them is similar to Terry's, with the
exception of finding out the hard way when it came to getting
information from the corporation about a stringing scale.

-Phil Bondi(FL) 
phil@philbondi.com 

From "Richard Strang" <rstrang@pa.inter.net>

The other side of the coin. I live in the Rep. of Panama where the humidity
never dips below 50% and averages around 75%. People here have imported
pianos from the States, thinking they are a better quality and end up with
every action center bound up tight from the humidity. I think the Gray
Market pianos do very nicely down here.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On
Behalf Of Farrell
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 7:20 AM
To: Pianotech
Subject: Re: Yamaha "Gray Market"


There is nothing at all inferior about the manufacture of the "grey" market
Yamahas. The only difference is that the "grey" market pianos were
manufactured for consumption in Japan, which has a somewhat humid climate -
and home interiors do not experience the degree of dryness more common in
North American homes (I've also heard reports of something about the manner
in which they tend to heat their homes resulting in less drying). The pianos
made for the Japanese market have wooden components that were dried to a
relatively high moisture content compared to the pianos destined for the
North American market - which are dried to a lower MC.

I have heard many reports of Yamaha grey market pianos literally falling
apart when exposed to very dry climates. I live in Florida, where I have
never seen an indoor humidity dropping below 35% RH, service numerous grey
market Yamahas, and short of a walking center pin or two have never seen a
grey market Yamaha with any discernable humidity-related problem beyond
anything that one might commonly see on any American-made piano.

So, in my book, very little reason to be concerned with a Yamaha grey market
piano if you live in a humid climate and will not be subjecting the piano to
low RHs. Many reasons to be concerned with a Yamaha grey market piano if you
live in a climate that experiences very dry periods and will be subjecting
the piano to low RHs. How low is low and for how long? Not a clue.
Reportedly the 2% RH experienced in Saskatoon is dry enough to make 'em self
destruct, and 35% RH seem to generate no ill effects.

Now you need to be careful about some of these grey market pianos, because I
know that some of them are worn-out university practice-room pianos and the
piano makes an initial stop in Mexico to get new keytops, a fresh coat of
paint and a two-pedal-to-three-pedal conversion to earn the status of
"completely rebuilt"! We have a large importer of these grey market pianos
here in Tampa, and I have seen quite a range in the condition of these
pianos. They get anything from junk to very, very nice pianos. I helped my
son's piano teacher buy a 1983 Yamaha G5 grand from the importer. This piano
is virtually like new, no killer octave, great sound, nice little crown in
the soundboard, excellent action, it looks like new (original finish), she
just loves the piano, and she only paid $7,500 for it. She has had it two or
three years now, still loves it, and it seems to be behaving quite well.

Whereas I would not steer anyone away from a grey market Yamy, I would
suggest to them that the grey market status should earn some reduction in
price.

That's my take on it.

Terry Farrell

----- Original Message -----
From: "N&B Brickman" <nbb@us.net>


> Folks,
> I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C.,
> area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or
> Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many
> years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent
> posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about
> the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
> Norman Brickman


_______________________________________________
pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech

From Dave Doremus <algiers_piano@bellsouth.net>

Just to add my 2?, I see a number of these in south Louisiana (like 
FL, the driest my shop has ever been is 35%), most have no problems, 
but a few are basically worn out, as Terry said. Recently I looked at 
3 U1s from the 80's, all were in great shape action, bridge and 
soundboard wise but the pin blocks were boarderline at best, very 
difficult to tune solidly because you had no definate feel for the 
pin movement. These may hang on here but if moved to a drier area 
will probably not last. The guy selling them said to a potential 
customer, in my hearing, that Yamahas are always loose because they 
use 1/0 pins, so technicians (me) that point out possible problems 
simply dont know what they are talking about. I took some offense at 
this and feel that this guy is working the shady side of the street, 
if not actually dishonest, at least misleading. A couple of years 
back I was in Vermont and heard from a technician there of several 
gray market pianos he bought in the south, sold in the north, that 
became untunable the first winter in VT, causing him no end of 
headaches. So, let the buyer beware and keep your house humid in the 
winter.....


----Dave


-----------------------------
Dave Doremus, RPT
New Orleans
------------------------------



On 1/4/04, Phil Bondi said:

>Norman, I concur with what Terry Farrell said about the gray markets
>in Florida..I don't see as many as he does up there, but you
>definitely take your chances with them considering the corporation
>will not honor any warranties, which for the most part, have run out
>anyway.
>
>My personal experiences with them is similar to Terry's, with the
>exception of finding out the hard way when it came to getting
>information from the corporation about a stringing scale.
>
>-Phil Bondi(FL)
>phil@philbondi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech


-- 

From Andrew & Rebeca Anderson <anrebe@zianet.com>

Norman,
I occasionally sell imported, used Kawais and Yamahas from Japan.  These 
are great instruments which have been traded in for new instruments.  The 
well-to-do Japanese often change furniture yearly and pianos almost as 
often.  The pianos were not conditioned for the drier climate we experience 
in the interior of the U.S.  Humid coastal climates where, even with 
air-conditioning, the RH doesn't dip below 40% are OK.  Anywhere else a 
Dampp-Chaser Piano Life Saver System is not optional.
If there are other perceived problems, I haven't encountered any in my 
primary work as a technician.  Are there other perceived problems?

Andrew
At 05:36 AM 1/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Folks,
>         I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C.,
>area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or
>Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many
>years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent
>posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about
>the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
>                 Norman Brickman
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:17:02 -0800
>From: "pianolover 88" <pianolover88@hotmail.com>
>To: pianotech@ptg.org
>Subject: RE: Used Yamaha U1
>Message-ID: <LAW11-F9VofUOKybPZT00077c4e@hotmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 14
>
>the VAST majority of these Imported pianos are indeed "Gray Market", and
>were NOT intended for sale/use in the North American market. While ALL
>U1's
>are made in Japan, the pianos sold by authorized Yamaha dealers here are
>"seasoned" for the North American market. Make sure you get the serial
>number of the particular U1 or other yamaha model, then go to the
>Official
>yamaka website and input the serial number. It will tell you quickly
>what
>you're dealing with. Go here:
>http://www.yamaha.com/pianoserials/index.asp
>
>Good luck.
>
>Terry
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: "marc and tina" <marc_and_tina@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
>To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
>Subject: Used Yamaha U1
>Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:10:52 -0600
>
>Hello All,
>
>I am in the market for a home piano and the Yamaha U1 floats to the top
>of
>my list.  I'm seeing a lot of refurbished U1's on the market that was
>manufactured in the 1970's.  I was wondering if someone could shed some
>light on why there are so many used U1's available from the 1970's?
>Should
>I avoid these or focus on buying a U1 built sometime later?
>
>Thanks in advance for your help,
>
>Christina
>
>_______________________________________________
>pianotech list info: http://www.ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech

From Nichols <nicho@zianet.com>

At 05:36 AM 1/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Folks,
>         I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C.,
>area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or
>Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many
>years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent
>posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about
>the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
>                 Norman Brickman

Norman,

    The other responses on this thread pretty much tell the story about 
used imports. They can be, just like any other used piano, quite worn out. 
They will be, like any import, a bit more susceptible to problems from 
extreme dryness.
    There is one rather "major" issue, though. With rare exception, these 
pianos are NOT "Grey Market". That term is mis-used when applied to used 
pianos from anywhere. "Grey Market" actually applies to instruments (or 
other goods) that are sold illegally, by non-authorized vendors.
While I'm not on a crusade to fix nomenclature, this is an area where I 
feel like we should act like we're educated. It does rub against the grain, 
but nowhere near as much as "New-que-ler" !   %^)

Guy Nichols, RPT
Ft. Stinkin' Desert, NM

oh... and Norman.... check back to last... uh... July's Journal.... the 
article titled "Black and White... or Grey?"

From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

"Grey Market" actually applies to instruments (or other goods) that are sold illegally, by non-authorized vendors."

Illegally? I used to own a "grey market" Mercedes that was originally bought in Germany, and after a year was legally brought over to the US. The local Mercedes dealer snubbed his nose and me and my "grey market" Mercedes. I don't think the legality of the situation dictate the use of the term "grey market". In the case of the car it did not have the 5 mph bumpers, air pollution devices and it had a high-beam aiming device that is not permitted on US automobiles - that basically made it a grey market automobile. But I do believe the import was legal. I had a registration. Surely Jeb would not condone anything illegal.... It's not as if I were smuggling clothes into the US without paying duty.......

Terry Farrell


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nichols 
  To: Pianotech 
  Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 4:23 PM
  Subject: Re: Yamaha "Gray Market"


  At 05:36 AM 1/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:

    Folks,
            I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C., 
    area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or 
    Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many 
    years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent 
    posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about 
    the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
                    Norman Brickman

  Norman,

     The other responses on this thread pretty much tell the story about used imports. They can be, just like any other used piano, quite worn out. They will be, like any import, a bit more susceptible to problems from extreme dryness. 
     There is one rather "major" issue, though. With rare exception, these pianos are NOT "Grey Market". That term is mis-used when applied to used pianos from anywhere. "Grey Market" actually applies to instruments (or other goods) that are sold illegally, by non-authorized vendors.
  While I'm not on a crusade to fix nomenclature, this is an area where I feel like we should act like we're educated. It does rub against the grain, but nowhere near as much as "New-que-ler" !   %^)

  Guy Nichols, RPT
  Ft. Stinkin' Desert, NM

  oh... and Norman.... check back to last... uh... July's Journal.... the article titled "Black and White... or Grey?" 

From Ron Nossaman <RNossaman@cox.net>

>  It's not as if I were smuggling clothes into the US without paying 
> duty.......
>
>Terry Farrell


Or paying cash to undeclared illegal immigrants for house and garden work.

I wonder if that's gray labor.

Ron N

From Richard Brekne <Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no>

Ron Nossaman wrote:
> 
> >  It's not as if I were smuggling clothes into the US without paying
> > duty.......
> >
> >Terry Farrell
> 
> Or paying cash to undeclared illegal immigrants for house and garden work.
> 
> I wonder if that's gray labor.
> 
> Ron N
> 

Dunno.. they used to call that black labour... but for some reason that
term fell out of favour. Things used to be pretty much black and white
way back when.... then came colour TV, and for some reason everything
turned to shades of grey.  Go figure :)

Cheers
RicB

From Nichols <nicho@zianet.com>

At 09:17 PM 1/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>"Grey Market" actually applies to instruments (or other goods) that are 
>sold illegally, by non-authorized vendors."
>
>Illegally? I used to own a "grey market" Mercedes that was originally 
>bought in Germany, and after a year was legally brought over to the US.

Terry,
    Don't think it's really worth a lot of discussion, as it is just 
semantics, or nomenclature, or whatever. But, from your statement above, 
I'd have to say your car was not "Grey Market" at all. Just used.(*) My 
understanding of the term goes way back, and if applied to your car, would 
have meant that the car was purchased new from a person or dealer that was 
not authorized to sell the car, at least in your territory. As opposed to 
"Black Market", where the goods are likely stolen. Once the car is "used", 
the term doesn't apply. But, again, each to his own. Call it (your car), or 
them(the pianos) whatever you want. I think everyone has a good idea what 
is meant when we use it on pianos. Used. Imported. There are "authorized" 
dealers that stock and sell both new and used (imported). I doubt that they 
would consider their sales of used imports as "Grey Market".

Best regards,
Guy

*note: there is an exception, I believe, in the works. it has to do with 
used Kabota mini-tractors from Japan. Manufacturers and dealers have 
invested the effort and money to get a ban on used imports. let's hope this 
never happens again, with pianos or anything else!
>  The local Mercedes dealer snubbed his nose and me and my "grey market" 
> Mercedes. I don't think the legality of the situation dictate the use of 
> the term "grey market". In the case of the car it did not have the 5 mph 
> bumpers, air pollution devices and it had a high-beam aiming device that 
> is not permitted on US automobiles - that basically made it a grey market 
> automobile. But I do believe the import was legal. I had a registration.

>  Surely Jeb would not condone anything illegal...

You mean, except election theft?

>. It's not as if I were smuggling clothes into the US without paying 
>duty.......
>
>Terry Farrell
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:nicho@zianet.com>Nichols
>To: <mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>Pianotech
>Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 4:23 PM
>Subject: Re: Yamaha "Gray Market"
>
>At 05:36 AM 1/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>Folks,
>>         I could use a little information.  I am in the Washington, D.C.,
>>area and have a set of customers that have purchased from the Yamaha or
>>Kawai used "Gray Market" and have been enjoying their pianos for many
>>years.  I notice no problems when I service them, and yet the recent
>>posts make them sound inferior.  What specifically am I missing about
>>the "seasoning" that is done for the North American market?
>>                 Norman Brickman
>Norman,
>
>    The other responses on this thread pretty much tell the story about 
> used imports. They can be, just like any other used piano, quite worn 
> out. They will be, like any import, a bit more susceptible to problems 
> from extreme dryness.
>    There is one rather "major" issue, though. With rare exception, these 
> pianos are NOT "Grey Market". That term is mis-used when applied to used 
> pianos from anywhere. "Grey Market" actually applies to instruments (or 
> other goods) that are sold illegally, by non-authorized vendors.
>While I'm not on a crusade to fix nomenclature, this is an area where I 
>feel like we should act like we're educated. It does rub against the 
>grain, but nowhere near as much as "New-que-ler" !   %^)
>
>Guy Nichols, RPT
>Ft. Stinkin' Desert, NM
>
>oh... and Norman.... check back to last... uh... July's Journal.... the 
>article titled "Black and White... or Grey?"