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CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

Delwin Fandrich

Delwin Fandrich04-29-2009 18:01

From "Delwin D Fandrich"

  • 1.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-29-2009 18:38 
    From "RON MAY, RPT" <ronmay_rpt@bellsouth.net>

Surprisingly, in our little piece of paradise known as Vero Beach, FL We have a Symphonic Association for which I am proud to be the tuner.

Since January 1 we have had seven (7) world class symphony orchestras and 5 terrific pianist. These symphonies consisted of the Dublin Philharmonic, The Czech Symphony, The Munich Symphony, The Estonian National Symphony, The National Philharmonic of Russia and two concerts with our own Bervard Symphony of which we are very proud. this is very much like all of the programs put on by our association annually.

All symphonies and artists coming from Europe requested A442 which at the associations direction I produced. That is until about two years ago.  I understand that Hamburg Steinway also demands or at least suggests 442. The problem is that our piano is used in a large church where it is played with a great pipe organ. There are also numerous recitals, concerts, etc using the piano weekly and other than our symphonic association and the European concerts, the piano is and was maintained at 440.  This meant that every ttime the piano was tuned to 442, I had to go back in and bring it back down to 440 which even with this small difference, required a couple tunings because of stability problems.

I had questioned this with the association prior to every concert.  Fortunately, a member of the association has a PHD in piano performance and is in total agreement with me but we tried to keep everyone happy ---that is until a well known European symphony came to town with a really great pianist. As usual, I went up prior to the concert and met with the director and the artist to check on any possible problems with the piano. While talking, I asked them, "Why do we need 442 instead of 440"? to which the director started stamering around about the violins, the horns, the this, the that. The 1st violinest overheard the conversation and came running up all excited-and in broken english -Piano at 442 right - right. I answered yes, Its 442,  I would just like to know WHY'  

The concert went on, It became time for the pianist to take his place at the piano, The violinist came forth to tune the orchestra to the piano.  She struck A4 on the piano, walked away from the piano and 5 or 10 seconds later strumed what she thought she heard and tuned the orchestra she thought to the piano. I heard a beautiful Beethoven Concerto played on a beautiful piano tuned to A442 ----with an orchestra that was closer to 435.  I was upset.

I thank sombody on this list that made this suggestion some time ago  which we now use.

I wrote a form letter from the Symphonic Association Piano Technician that merely states that, "We will be happy to tune the piano to A442 for you, however, This fine piano is maintained at A440 to satisfy the  majority of the artists as well as the church. If you wish the piano tuned to A442 we will be happy to do so, however, it will require that the piano be retuned back to A440 immediately after the concert and we will have no choice but to charge you $500.00 for the several tunings it will take to bring it back to 440..

Since then we have had no problems---that is until about 2 weeks ago.  We had an orchestra,(no pianist) coming in demanding a piano and for it to be tuned A442. When we informed them of our situation they said fine, we will bring our own piano which they did.  It was some kind of an electric keyboard that I would bet was maybe 439.

Ron May
Vero Beach


  • 2.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2009 18:01 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich"


  • 3.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-29-2009 18:04 
    From "David Ilvedson" <ilvey@sbcglobal.net>

I am beginning to like the idea of leaving the piano at 441.  Close enough to 440 and 442...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 4.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2009 19:07 
    From "Delwin D Fandrich"


  • 5.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-29-2009 20:34 
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

Delwin D Fandrich wrote:
> Or do what a visually impaired friend of mine did. Have a few forks made up with
> identical pitches (A=440 Hz) but marked A=440, A=441, A=442, etc. I seem to
> recall they went up to A=445. Then ask the person making the request to pick out
> the appropriate fork. Claimed he never had a problem.
> 
> ddf

Sounds like a Newton sort of move.
Ron N


  • 6.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-30-2009 02:28 
    From "David Nereson" <da88ve@gmail.com>

Somebody else recently suggested tuning to A=440, then if there's a 
complaint about wanting 442, just go re-tune A4 to 442.  They'll probably 
never check any of the other keys.  After they've checked, put the one A 
back on 440.
    --David Nereson, RPT


  • 7.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-30-2009 02:31 
    From "David Nereson" <da88ve@gmail.com>

Somebody else recently suggested tuning to A=440, then if there's a 
complaint about wanting 442, just go re-tune A4 to 442.  They'll probably 
never check any of the other keys.  After they've checked, put the one A 
back on 440.
    --David Nereson, RPT


  • 8.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2009 21:49 
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>

How interesting that this should come up as I just had a call from a regular
concert venue I do where the pianist playing next week insisted that the
piano be tuned to A441 (it's currently and regularly kept at A440).  I do
like the multiple tuning fork idea with different markings on each but tuned
to the same pitch.  Anyway, after being presented with the anticipated bill
for moving the pitch up to 441 and then back down to 440 (each requiring a
preliminary pitch raise or lowering before the fine tuning) they decided
that they could live with 440.    

David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 9.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-30-2009 05:25 
    From "Pianoman" <pianoman@accessus.net>

tricky, tricky, tricky
James
James Grebe
Since 1962
Piano Tuning & Repair
Creator of Handsome Hardwood Products(
314) 608-4137   1526 Raspberry Lane   Arnold, MO 63010
Researcher of St. Louis Theatre History
BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
www.grebepiano.com

    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 10.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-30-2009 11:09 
    From Richard Brekne <ricb@pianostemmer.no>

I've been doing this for several years now... but am slowly but surely 
being pushed to leaning heavily towards 442.  The internationally 
recognized pitch thing is a defacto non-thing.  Even Jazz players from 
the states are accepting 442 over here now... mainly because they end up 
having  to pay for the pitch drop and raise. True enough... there is 
some piece of paper signed by some international standards committee 
back in 1930 something.... but todays pitch ranges from 440 to 445.  
Vienna symphony is at 445 now I understand after being at 444 for many 
years.

Its just another one of those facts of life I've given up getting all 
bent out of shape about.

Cheers
RicB


    I am beginning to like the idea of leaving the piano at 441.  Close
    enough to 440 and 442...

    David Ilvedson, RPT
    Pacifica, CA  94044


  • 11.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-29-2009 20:40 
    From "PianoCare2" <pianocare2@bigpond.com>

May I add a little more to this thread

Concert Pitch here in Australia is A=440. The orchestra I work with asks for
440. Air con off is 440 and then it gets tuned later with a/c on and it is 2
cents sharp.  We have an agreement that it is as close to 440 as possible,
and if the piano goes over 441 I just let the oboist know. I would rather
have stability than perfect 440hz. Overseas string players seem to want to
always be at 442.. they believe it sounds better. (A Japanese violinist who
lives 6 months in Australia and 6 months working with an European orchestra
hates 440. and always tells me that we are flat compared to Japan and
Europe)  I have to add that the orchestras want the piano perfect... Is the
orchestra always perfect ???

 

The Australian Chamber Orchestra publish in their programs that they tune at
441hz. I believe the reason is that concert halls are never at 20 degrees
Celsius at 441 at 24 degrees ( the recommended temperature stated by the
electricity companies)is close to 440hz.

Mainland European orchestras want at least 442 and the Berlin Phil can be
higher . I have a recording at 445. I am sure that it is 440 in England
however they have a bit of fun when a mainland orchestra tours...good story
was Daniel Barrenboim playing the Beethoven 32 in London and in between
these recitals he played a concerto in Paris. the piano was left at 442

Steinway Hamburg recommend 443.. it's on the website

 

The artistic dept of my orchestra always tells me in advance re pitch or
requirements of the performer. There is always more to piano preparation.

 

Ron, I am envious of your touring orchestras.. However I am surprised you
have only one piano in the hall...would make it a little easier for you
there was at least two pianos to choose from.

Regards

Brian Wilson

 

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of RON MAY, RPT
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2009 10:38 AM
To: Pianotech
Subject: [pianotech] CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

 

Surprisingly, in our little piece of paradise known as Vero Beach, FL We
have a Symphonic Association for which I am proud to be the tuner.

 

Since January 1 we have had seven (7) world class symphony orchestras and 5
terrific pianist. These symphonies consisted of the Dublin Philharmonic, The
Czech Symphony, The Munich Symphony, The Estonian National Symphony, The
National Philharmonic of Russia and two concerts with our own Bervard
Symphony of which we are very proud. this is very much like all of the
programs put on by our association annually.

 

All symphonies and artists coming from Europe requested A442 which at the
associations direction I produced. That is until about two years ago.  I
understand that Hamburg Steinway also demands or at least suggests 442. The
problem is that our piano is used in a large church where it is played with
a great pipe organ. There are also numerous recitals, concerts, etc using
the piano weekly and other than our symphonic association and the European
concerts, the piano is and was maintained at 440.  This meant that every
ttime the piano was tuned to 442, I had to go back in and bring it back down
to 440 which even with this small difference, required a couple tunings
because of stability problems.

 

I had questioned this with the association prior to every concert.
Fortunately, a member of the association has a PHD in piano performance and
is in total agreement with me but we tried to keep everyone happy ---that is
until a well known European symphony came to town with a really great
pianist. As usual, I went up prior to the concert and met with the director
and the artist to check on any possible problems with the piano. While
talking, I asked them, "Why do we need 442 instead of 440"? to which the
director started stamering around about the violins, the horns, the this,
the that. The 1st violinest overheard the conversation and came running up
all excited-and in broken english -Piano at 442 right - right. I answered
yes, Its 442,  I would just like to know WHY'  

 

The concert went on, It became time for the pianist to take his place at the
piano, The violinist came forth to tune the orchestra to the piano.  She
struck A4 on the piano, walked away from the piano and 5 or 10 seconds later
strumed what she thought she heard and tuned the orchestra she thought to
the piano. I heard a beautiful Beethoven Concerto played on a beautiful
piano tuned to A442 ----with an orchestra that was closer to 435.  I was
upset.

 

I thank sombody on this list that made this suggestion some time ago  which
we now use.

 

I wrote a form letter from the Symphonic Association Piano Technician that
merely states that, "We will be happy to tune the piano to A442 for you,
however, This fine piano is maintained at A440 to satisfy the  majority of
the artists as well as the church. If you wish the piano tuned to A442 we
will be happy to do so, however, it will require that the piano be retuned
back to A440 immediately after the concert and we will have no choice but to
charge you $500.00 for the several tunings it will take to bring it back to
440..

 

Since then we have had no problems---that is until about 2 weeks ago.  We
had an orchestra,(no pianist) coming in demanding a piano and for it to be
tuned A442. When we informed them of our situation they said fine, we will
bring our own piano which they did.  It was some kind of an electric
keyboard that I would bet was maybe 439.

 

Ron May

Vero Beach

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  • 12.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-29-2009 21:20 
    From wimblees@aol.com

It is interesting that orchestras are so concerned about the pitch of the piano, but no one ever notices the pitch of the percussion instruments. The ones at UA were all pitched at 442. I presume that's standard for all percussion instruments. Same for the harps. 


I like the idea of having four or five tuning forks tuned to 440, but marked at different pitches. Let's see if a violinist can pick out the correct one. 

Wim 


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 13.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-29-2009 22:07 
    From "PianoCare2" <pianocare2@bigpond.com>

I wanted to say that but thought it might be politically incorrect.. Yep the
percussion is all standard to 442hz.. And they tell me that the rest of the
orchestra is out of tune anyway..(how to win friends)

The harpist uses a korg electronic tuner to tune the whole instrument. and I
want to tell her that the treble is off..(how not to win friends)

To be honest I have a number of forks.. 440hz, 440 plus 2 cents, 441 and
442. usually use 441 in houses when temperature is over 25 degrees Celsius .
which is most of year and 442 in summer. I tried the technique of having the
fork in a pocket but didn't work for me.. Silly me kept dropping it..

I was one told this about pitch.. The higher the pitch is the perception is
that it is brighter. and if a pianist is selecting a bright instrument,
he/she will pick the one that is sharper.. Haven't tried that one out...but
it came from an European concert tech..

Brian

 

  _____  

From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
Of wimblees@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2009 1:20 PM
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

 

It is interesting that orchestras are so concerned about the pitch of the
piano, but no one ever notices the pitch of the percussion instruments. The
ones at UA were all pitched at 442. I presume that's standard for all
percussion instruments. Same for the harps. 

I like the idea of having four or five tuning forks tuned to 440, but marked
at different pitches. Let's see if a violinist can pick out the correct one.


Wim 


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 14.  CONCERT PITCH 440/442?

    Posted 04-30-2009 03:49 
    From St?phane Collin <collin.s@mobistar.be>

Hello all.

 

In an orchestra, playing right has little to do with producing notes with
frequencies in the right theoretical proportion with the reference one (was
it 440 or 442).  The musicians always alter the pitch of one particular note
regarding many criteria.  The process is completely intuitive, and based on
the aim for everything sounding as good as possible.  When one musician
plays the fifth of a chord, he will intuitively alter the pitch (when
possible) so the fifth is perfect, because that is where his note sounds
best at that moment; another moment, the same written note can happen to be
the tenth of the chord, and then he will alter the pitch to make this tenth
sound best.  More than that, if he plays an expressive melodic line, he will
intuitively make some ascending half steps with slightly higher pitch than
the others, and descending ones with lower pitch, as this is a well known
efficient trick to make the melody expressive.  All this is done according
to what the other musicians do (they too may have altered their pitch,
sometimes in quite large proportions; for example, when playing fortissimo
the lowest note on a cello or a double bass, the pitch of the note raises
quite a lot because of the extra tension in the string, and the musician can
not correct this as it is an open string), so it is all about tweaking, all
the time.

Exactly like when we stretch the high treble of a piano in order to make the
treble notes sound better, all those pitch alterations are musically
desirable.  The problem is when we reach the limits of what is physically
feasible.  Problems are multiple, but I heard that one of the worse comes
from the brass instruments who are very sensitive to temperature.  The
instrument?s temperature will raise a lot from the beginning to the end of
the concert (the player continuously blows warm and wet air in the
instrument); of course, there are devices on the instrument and techniques
from the player to counter the bad effect of the temperature on the pitch,
but voila, here is a severe physical limitation.

When tuned to 440 Hz, the brass of an orchestra playing repertoire with busy
brass parts will be objectionably out of tune at the end of the concert.

 

Of course, when there is a piano involved, everybody gets crazy.
Nonetheless, when tweaking stays in the non objectionable domain, the music
will sound good, if god will.  There may be differences of a few cents
between instruments without real problems.  Anyway, the difference between
an equally tempered third on a piano and a ?just? one like those played
intuitively by the strings lies inside this domain. Or ?

 

St?phane Collin.

 

 

 

The 1st violinest overheard the conversation and came running up all
excited-and in broken english -Piano at 442 right - right. I answered yes,
Its 442,  I would just like to know WHY'