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Piano in cold environment

  • 1.  Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-13-2022 17:39

    Hello all,
     I have a customer who wants to move his piano to his cabin in Silverton Colorado (about an hour away), but he only lives there in the summer. The rest of the year the house will not be heated. This place is around 9500 feet elevation and below freezing about half the year. I realize this will wreak havoc on the tuning, but will it otherwise damage the piano?  The temp and humidity will not be swinging because it's always dry here, and even in summer the nights can be in 30s and 40s degrees.

    I'm wondering if I should tell him not to do this. The piano is an old Hornung & Miller spinet, which already has CA on the pins. 
    Any thoughts?  Thanks!



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    Laura Wright, RPT
    Ivory Keys Piano Service
    Durango CO
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  • 2.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Posted 03-13-2022 18:09

    You might try talking to people at the Banff Centre in Alberta. When I was there in 1980 they used to leave uprights in the practice huts all winter, no heat. They seemed all right after the temperatures came back up in the late spring.






  • 3.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Member
    Posted 03-13-2022 18:12
    Regardless of what is going on outside the environment the piano is sitting in will affect it. If its 30 to 40 degrees in the summer they will want to get warm somehow through a fire in a fireplace , electric heaters or central heat. There needs to be a balance between temp and rh but heat tends to dry out the air and lower the humidity. The safety range per Dampp-Chaser is 40-50% rh. It is a good idea to direct them to the website for Dampp-chaser/Piano Life Saver to understand the relationships of temp & humidity as well as the meaning of dew-point.  There probably is a lot of early morning moisture at that elevation regardless of season. I do not think you have a way to predict one way or the other what will happen. The plate in the piano is like a heat sink and sitting in below freezing for half a year may not serve it well. The piano does not sound like it is in great condition however its up to them to decide. I would not recommend the move. Others may disagree but you could be in a bad spot if the piano implodes.

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 4.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Posted 03-13-2022 19:56
    Cold doesn't affect the structure of the piano. It's the heat that gets it. This piano sounds compromised already, but it's probably worth a shot moving it there. He could replace it with another spinet if it doesn't work. They're cheap everywhere around here.

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    John Formsma
    New Albany MS
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  • 5.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Posted 03-13-2022 21:19
    It will make a perfect nesting place for the mice.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 6.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-13-2022 22:54
    Another convo on freezing pianos from a few months ago:
    https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MessageKey=f321619a-76b6-4bf1-bbeb-6db730a0f2c9&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 7.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-14-2022 13:57
    Temperature by itself has only a transitory effect on the piano, as the plate expands and contracts.   However, cold air won't hold much moisture.  People tend forget that "relative" humidity means just that: how much water vapor the air will hold is conditional on the temperature.   A range of 40 to 60% humidity at 20 degrees F is not the equivalent to a similar figure at 80 degrees.  Those winter temperatures leave the air bone dry and can wreck havoc on soundboard, pin block, action rails. . .anything wood really.

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    Cecil Snyder
    Torrance CA
    310-542-7108
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  • 8.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-14-2022 14:45
    Even though cold air won't hold much moisture, it won't necessarily be doing damage.  Air with a relative humidity of 50 percent at just above freezing influences wood structures about the same as air with a relative humidity of 50 percent at 80 F, even though the absolute humidity of the cold air is much lower.  As long as the air is cold, it does not have much appetite for sucking moisture from materials in its environment.  Take that same cold air and heat it up, and its relative humidity plummets, and it sucks up moisture wherever it can find it.  This is why pianos in unheated environments may indeed fare better over the winter than pianos in heated environments, at least when humidity in the heated environments is not deliberately managed.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 9.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-14-2022 19:05
    I'll yield to your practical experience, Floyd.  You're seen a lot more chilly weather than I have.  And what you see as a sultry spring day in Regina would probably send me off in search of a down hoodie and some mittens in L.A.  

    By the way, your remark about the cold sucking the moisture out of the air is what is known in poetry as a "pathetic fallacy."  This is a rhetorical flourish and not meant in any way to be a disparaging comment.  It is when you take a characteristic of nature and impute to it human emotions:  "the angry dawn"  the "brooding clouds" etc.  

    "The dog ate my homework."   That's a whole different sort  of pathetic fallacy.  No, you were being poetic.

    Does anyone out there know if there is a way to calculate the absolute weight/quantity of water that a certain amount of air at a RH of 100% would hold?   This is something that I have always been curious about.   I'd have a lot better understanding of this if I could visualize it. Say you took room full of air and chilled it down to zero and (d)rained all the water out of it.  How many quarts or gallons would you get?  







  • 10.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Posted 03-14-2022 15:15
    If the piano is already in a compromised condition, no. Find a stronger piano to stick in the woods to be neglected.
    Although, placing that spinet out there places it one step closer to a bonfire.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 11.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Posted 03-14-2022 19:03
      |   view attached

    An old spinet, what is there to lose? At least it it the perfect candidate. An interesting experiment, if nothing else. I concur with those saying that dry cold will not kill the piano.  As long as it stays inside the cabin...



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    Jurgen Goering
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  • 12.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-14-2022 20:14

    Wanted to post an update, I talked to the fellow again today for further discussion about pros and cons. It is not a house, it is a bunkhouse at a campground, so no water pipes, no heat in winter. Also no insulation. He just wants it there (he is the owner of the campground) for people to play around with. 
    For those unfamiliar with living in southwest Colorado, it is very dry here. Dry dry dry. The highest it ever gets is around 40% and that's during monsoon season in July. So very cold and dry in winter in Silverton. 
    We also discussed the rodent situation. He says he has some special homemade mouse traps (?) that he uses every year. Supposedly work very well. 😏. Different subject, but has anyone tried putting lavender in a piano?
    I'm going to see the piano this week before he moves it. I think he's determined to do it so I'll just give him information and let him make the choice. 

    Thanks for all your responses!



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    Laura Wright, RPT
    Ivory Keys Piano Service
    Durango CO
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  • 13.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-14-2022 20:43
    By way of clarification, I did not say that cold sucks moisture out of the air.  I said that air at a low relative humidity sucks moisture (yes, that may be an anthropomorphism) out of materials in its environment.  If a body of air and, say, a panel of spruce are in a cold environment, and their moisture levels have reached some kind of equilibrium, and the temperature then rises, the capacity of the air to hold moisture is significantly increased, more so than that of the spruce, and the air begins to absorb moisture from the spruce, such that the amount of moisture in the air increases, and the amount of moisture in the spruce decreases.  If the amount of moisture in the whole system remains constant, and a new equilibrium is achieved, it is one in which the moisture content of the air is now higher, and moisture content of the spruce is now lower.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 14.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-14-2022 23:21
    I've also found in my rural area with many 'summer' homes that (perhaps due to global warming) our weather changes from single digits to 60 degrees on a weekly basis through spring and fall.
    The cold may not due great damage but sudden changes bring condensation and thus rust and corrosion on all metal parts, and plays havoc with wooden flanges.
    Nancy Salmon RPT
    Western Maryland mountains





  • 15.  RE: Piano in cold environment

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-15-2022 10:01
    Laura

    I have been talking care of the pianos at Philmont Scout Ranch for several years. I have several old uprghts that live in buildings that I'm pretty sure get winterized and at best minimal heat. One is in the back country and I know there's no heat in the building at all. The tuning is pretty stable but I do have mouse problems from time to time. I have one that pops ivory keytops periodically but that could just be a bad glue batch from the get go like I've seen on other instruments.  Philmont is pretty close to your neighborhood located in Cimmaron, New Mexico. Hope this helps.