Voicing

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Voicing .
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I'm tuning at a recording studio tomorrow morning with an old Steinway Bre-bellied about 30-40 years ago and re-actioned about 5 years ago with (I believe) Abel hammers. The piano has always had a pretty severe damper-oink with the shift pedal in full position, right at the top of the agraffe section. Recently, I was able to reduce this pretty significantly by tipping the damper heads very slightly so the rear damper pad begins to lift before the front pad. I tipped them as far as possible without degrading damping. In the past I had tried adjusting the shift stop screw such that the hammers didn't clear the left-hand strings, but the artists didn't like the resultant loss of tone color that the shift had provided. In addition, as the action rebuilder thinned the new hammers quite a bit, there's really not a lot of room for needling between the string cuts. Am I missing something? Are there any other techniques for minimizing this phenomenon?

- Mark

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Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
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Perhaps you could space just the offending section (half octave?) so that it doesn't miss the left string.

I don't know what you mean by not having enough room to voice between the string cuts. Doesn't matter how thin the hammer is, the amount of space between will be the same (the strings haven't moved). If shift is minimized, so that the hammers are shifted only half the distance between strings, there should be enough space to do shift voicing between strings and to the left of the left string, unless the hammers are so narrow there isn't that much felt outside the three strings - which would be extreme. Using finer needles helps with this, as the coarser ones (#5, #6, or whatever) we use for shoulders don't do crown work really well. #10 and #12 penetrate that dense felt without just tearing holes, so they make a pretty significant and controllable tonal change. In fact, I occasionally have had complaints of too much contrast.

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Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 14:40
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Voicing .
-------------------------------------------
I'm tuning at a recording studio tomorrow morning with an old Steinway Bre-bellied about 30-40 years ago and re-actioned about 5 years ago with (I believe) Abel hammers. The piano has always had a pretty severe damper-oink with the shift pedal in full position, right at the top of the agraffe section. Recently, I was able to reduce this pretty significantly by tipping the damper heads very slightly so the rear damper pad begins to lift before the front pad. I tipped them as far as possible without degrading damping. In the past I had tried adjusting the shift stop screw such that the hammers didn't clear the left-hand strings, but the artists didn't like the resultant loss of tone color that the shift had provided. In addition, as the action rebuilder thinned the new hammers quite a bit, there's really not a lot of room for needling between the string cuts. Am I missing something? Are there any other techniques for minimizing this phenomenon?

- Mark

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Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
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Thanks, Fred. You know, it never even occurred to me to respace only the offending hammers. Brilliant!

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Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 15:11
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

Perhaps you could space just the offending section (half octave?) so that it doesn't miss the left string.

I don't know what you mean by not having enough room to voice between the string cuts. Doesn't matter how thin the hammer is, the amount of space between will be the same (the strings haven't moved). If shift is minimized, so that the hammers are shifted only half the distance between strings, there should be enough space to do shift voicing between strings and to the left of the left string, unless the hammers are so narrow there isn't that much felt outside the three strings - which would be extreme. Using finer needles helps with this, as the coarser ones (#5, #6, or whatever) we use for shoulders don't do crown work really well. #10 and #12 penetrate that dense felt without just tearing holes, so they make a pretty significant and controllable tonal change. In fact, I occasionally have had complaints of too much contrast.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 14:40
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Voicing .
-------------------------------------------
I'm tuning at a recording studio tomorrow morning with an old Steinway Bre-bellied about 30-40 years ago and re-actioned about 5 years ago with (I believe) Abel hammers. The piano has always had a pretty severe damper-oink with the shift pedal in full position, right at the top of the agraffe section. Recently, I was able to reduce this pretty significantly by tipping the damper heads very slightly so the rear damper pad begins to lift before the front pad. I tipped them as far as possible without degrading damping. In the past I had tried adjusting the shift stop screw such that the hammers didn't clear the left-hand strings, but the artists didn't like the resultant loss of tone color that the shift had provided. In addition, as the action rebuilder thinned the new hammers quite a bit, there's really not a lot of room for needling between the string cuts. Am I missing something? Are there any other techniques for minimizing this phenomenon?

- Mark

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Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
-------------------------------------------

Hi Mark,

What kind of damper felt is on it? Steinway felt is cut so that it is layered horizontally and most other felt is layered vertically. The Steinway felt seems to oink less than other felt, IMO. I've had luck fixing oinks with it. Granted, it tears much easier and you need to be more cautious about muting, etc. but you might try it. One sample might tell.

Jim 

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James Busby
Mt Pleasant UT
801-422-3400
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 14:40
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Voicing .
-------------------------------------------
I'm tuning at a recording studio tomorrow morning with an old Steinway Bre-bellied about 30-40 years ago and re-actioned about 5 years ago with (I believe) Abel hammers. The piano has always had a pretty severe damper-oink with the shift pedal in full position, right at the top of the agraffe section. Recently, I was able to reduce this pretty significantly by tipping the damper heads very slightly so the rear damper pad begins to lift before the front pad. I tipped them as far as possible without degrading damping. In the past I had tried adjusting the shift stop screw such that the hammers didn't clear the left-hand strings, but the artists didn't like the resultant loss of tone color that the shift had provided. In addition, as the action rebuilder thinned the new hammers quite a bit, there's really not a lot of room for needling between the string cuts. Am I missing something? Are there any other techniques for minimizing this phenomenon?

- Mark

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Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
-------------------------------------------

Thanks, Jim. Not sure who's damper felt was used on this job, but it may be worth a try changing out some pad felt with current NY stock.

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Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 18:17
From: James Busby
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

Hi Mark,

What kind of damper felt is on it? Steinway felt is cut so that it is layered horizontally and most other felt is layered vertically. The Steinway felt seems to oink less than other felt, IMO. I've had luck fixing oinks with it. Granted, it tears much easier and you need to be more cautious about muting, etc. but you might try it. One sample might tell.

Jim 

-------------------------------------------
James Busby
Mt Pleasant UT
801-422-3400
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 14:40
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Voicing .
-------------------------------------------
I'm tuning at a recording studio tomorrow morning with an old Steinway Bre-bellied about 30-40 years ago and re-actioned about 5 years ago with (I believe) Abel hammers. The piano has always had a pretty severe damper-oink with the shift pedal in full position, right at the top of the agraffe section. Recently, I was able to reduce this pretty significantly by tipping the damper heads very slightly so the rear damper pad begins to lift before the front pad. I tipped them as far as possible without degrading damping. In the past I had tried adjusting the shift stop screw such that the hammers didn't clear the left-hand strings, but the artists didn't like the resultant loss of tone color that the shift had provided. In addition, as the action rebuilder thinned the new hammers quite a bit, there's really not a lot of room for needling between the string cuts. Am I missing something? Are there any other techniques for minimizing this phenomenon?

- Mark

-------------------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
-------------------------------------------

Might be too late to mention unless you're on call for the next few days, but I've had some success with this intractable problem by lightly filing the damper felts.  I've used a nail file with one side taped off so I can put the smooth side to the strings and carefully file with slight pressure on the felt at all the necessary angles.  Doesn't take much, and no, the results are not as permanent as replacing felt, but it seems to help the felt more quietly absorb the contrariness of the sympathetic vibrations in the non-struck string. 
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Mark Roe
Boulder CO
303-581-9693
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-22-2012 14:40
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Damper oink in shift position

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: CAUT and Voicing .
-------------------------------------------
I'm tuning at a recording studio tomorrow morning with an old Steinway Bre-bellied about 30-40 years ago and re-actioned about 5 years ago with (I believe) Abel hammers. The piano has always had a pretty severe damper-oink with the shift pedal in full position, right at the top of the agraffe section. Recently, I was able to reduce this pretty significantly by tipping the damper heads very slightly so the rear damper pad begins to lift before the front pad. I tipped them as far as possible without degrading damping. In the past I had tried adjusting the shift stop screw such that the hammers didn't clear the left-hand strings, but the artists didn't like the resultant loss of tone color that the shift had provided. In addition, as the action rebuilder thinned the new hammers quite a bit, there's really not a lot of room for needling between the string cuts. Am I missing something? Are there any other techniques for minimizing this phenomenon?

- Mark

-------------------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
-------------------------------------------

I usually get around this on the concert stage by using a strip of 320 wet/dry sandpaper. It is about 1 inch wide and maybe 10 inches long,(so I can hold on to it.) I slide it between the felt and the string and with care, pull it out, or sllde it sideways or back and forth. It takes very little pressure on the head of the damper to basically resurface the felt that contacts the string. It leaves the faintest trace of felt on the paper, but is effective for several hours of play. It is also helpful if the strings are clean and polished where the felt contacts them. Even the soft block felt will respond to this treatment, but great care has to be taken not to distort it. Regards, Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
Original Message----- From: Mark Roe To: Edward Foote Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2012 1:58 am Subject: Voicing: RE:Damper oink in shift position Might be too late to mention unless you're on call for the next few days, but I've had some success with this intractable problem by lightly filing the damper felts. I've used a nail file with one side taped off so I can put the smooth side to the strings and carefully file with slight pressure on the felt at all the necessary angles. Doesn't take much, and no, the results are not as permanent as replacing felt, but it seems to help the felt more quietly absorb the contrariness of the sympathetic vibrations in the non-struck string. ------------------------------------------- Mark Roe Boulder CO 303-581-9693 -------------------------------------------