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Voicing Out Metallic Noise

  • 1.  Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 21:08
    Hello all,

    Any suggestions / advice about voicing out metallic noise out of hammers?

    My subject in question is a Steinway M, original hammers (or at least Steinway hammers). The owner called complaining about a metallic noise for about an octave around middle C. I tried to break up the hard spots in the hammers (there were various hard pouches, both sides), but wasn't overly pleased with the results. The metallic sound was much less noticeable, and maybe the owner forgot about it shortly afterwards - I haven't heard back since....

    Any suggestions on dealing with this in the future (for S & S hammers and ‘normal’ hammers)? And maybe a faster method (it took about an hour to do)....

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2018 23:14
    First, were there any grooves to speak of? Did the mettalic sound change with the shift?
    Sounds like you are on the right track, but with Steinway hams having laquer in them, many times the "traditional" approaches may not yield the best results. 

    Big question: are you familiar with the David Stanwood technique of using a compas needle chucked in a pin vise, followed by striking the surface with a tiny (like 1.5 oz) ball pein hammer? The compass needle does not penetrate deeply but really "rearranges" the packed down felt fibers just below the surface. Then the ball pein sort of "packs down" the suface and kind of rounds out the sound. 
    I have had tremendous success with this on quite a few occasions (and many of them very critical performance venues! It is definitely something to have in your bag! Then acetone or similar may be the next step.......Kevin 



    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 11:36
    Hi Kevin,

    Thanks for the response. No, I don't believe the metallic sound changed with the una corda pedal. 

    Ive heard of the compass needle technique you describe, but haven't tried it yet. How far do you insert the compass needle? And, does one insert it straight down, pointed at the molding, or at an angle, etc.?

    I do remember (this was the other month) that sugar coating the crown with a bit of a longer needle (approx. 2 to 2.5 mm) did have a bit more of an affect. No negative effects I recall or have heard of since.

    Thanks,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:19
    I recently saw posted a link for a source for compass needles.  Anyone remember where that was?

    ------------------------------
    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 5.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:22
    From David Himself:



    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:29
    That's it, thanks!

    ------------------------------
    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 7.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:50
    You bet sir! By the way, Kent Swafford recently posted that he now refers to this as "the holy grail of voicing". So now I usually call it "holy grail" voicing. My piano professors now know what I mean by it. They LOVE it in the right situation. And, it's very forgiving. If it does not do the trick, you have still basically "refurbished" the string grooves/surface of the hammers & only good/great improvement has been made. Then just go deeper, use other methods if it isn't enough.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:34
    My replacement small ball pein hammer just came in today. Ordered from Amazon but it's from Commando Products Inc. 

    Brass Hammer

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:44
    Just straight into the crown. It's pretty shallow voicing as the needle is basically "blunt". It has a point on it but it doesn't penetrate very deep which is what you want for this. SO...you have to stab it pretty firmly with it in the pin vise in order to begin to see & hear the change. You can start off slow with about 6 stabs per hammer & then experiment from there. I have found that most hammers end up taking about 15 to 20 stabs all over the crown to really get the effect I am looking for-but it depends on you, how hard you are stabbling, the hammers you are working with, etc etc. And you need to follow up with about 10 to 15 whacks with the ball pein to really see where you are. 
    If I am making this sound difficult or tricky, my bad! It's not! As with any technique it takes a little practice. Hope this helps.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 12:59
    By the way, you can get this nifty brush from that same website.  I use it for brushing the dust off a grand keybed.  

    https://www.draftingsteals.com/20476.html

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    Zeno Wood
    Brooklyn, NY
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  • 11.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 13:48
    Thanks Kevin! One last question. Do you needle it into the string groves, between the string groves? Or just all over the place?

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 13:52
    All over the place works best. Watching David do it has helped tremendously. It really "pops" the packed down felt back up a bit. Also, as always-swipe over the hammers with a few quick strokes with very fine sandpaper strips. 1,000 or 1500 grit are me "go to" grits for final voicing.

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2018 14:03
    Thanks! I really appreciate your spending the time explaining this technique to me in detail - it'll be worth it soon!

    All the best,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez
    Professional Piano Services
    (805)315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    BenPianoPro@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 09:09
    Hey all,

    I'm grateful that this surface conditioning method is being accepted and more widely used.  It's my most valuable tool trick for blowing the mind of my customers in the nicest way and the effect lasts for years.  Just a couple of comments:  The ball peen does not actually pack down the felt.  One of the beauties of wool fiber is that is is highly resilient.  Age, heat, and lacquer dims it's memory of springing up on the back of the sheep!   The destruction of tone quality from these effects is most noticeable in the pianissimo ranges.

    The ball peen works and flexes the fibers and restores resiliency.  The peen acts to expand wool fibers into the holes left by the spike of the compass needle.  The word "Limber" comes to mind.   

    I personally use a medium sized ball peen hammer the long end of the wooden handle cut off.  It's heavier than what is pictured and additionally handy for hammering out lid pins with the aid of mini vice grip and such.   

    It is possible to break tails.  For fragile tails grasp three hammer together on the backing block and go for the middle hammer with spike and peen. 

    Cheers

    David Stanwood

    ><snip>The compass needle does not penetrate deeply but really "rearranges" the packed down felt fibers just below the surface. Then the >ball peen sort of "packs down" the surface and kind of rounds out the sound.

    >I<snip>..Kevin


  • 15.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 10:04
    David, thank you for clarifying! Would you consider doing a short video of this? Just a thought...

    SO, I think I'm getting the picture finally-little bit heavier ball pein hammer. 
    As I have been replacing my stolen tooks, it has been rather fun trying to figure out exactly what to order/replace things with. So I have ordered a few hammers online (my local suppier continues to be out of stock on tiny ball peins) and it looks like these are going to be a bit light. 
    I really like the quality of the 2oz brass one on the right, but it almost seems like the shape of the pein of the smaller one may be better. I may experiment with just adding weight to it. So 2.5 oz? 3oz?? What do you recommend?



    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 10:08
    Oops...I meant "tools" of course! 😏

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-12-2018 08:00
    Hi Kevin and all,

    Here is a video of John Foy working over a Steinway D with the method.  Pianissimo range was greatly improved in this example. Forte tone improved as well.    https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=I-BazjScJtk

    ------------------------------
    David Stanwood
    Stanwood Piano Innovations Inc.
    West Tisbury MA
    508-693-1583
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2018 09:24
    This link to David's video works better for me: 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BazjScJtk

    That's a lot more effort with the ball peen hammer than I imagined! The crowns really sound crunchy with <g class="gr_ gr_261 gr-alert gr_spell gr_disable_anim_appear ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="261" data-gr-id="261">laquer</g> with the compass needling. Thanks for taking the time to film and post these! Very helpful. It would also be great to edit clips of the sound before and after close together, so I can calibrate my ears.

    --Cy--

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    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2018 09:59
    Cy, one of my most recent examples of success with this Spike & Pein method; In preoaration for our Scholarship concert, I spent about 30 to 40 minutes on one of our older Steinway Ds. About a week later I received this response from one of our top staff pianists:




    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 10:19
    I have a customer with a Yamaha C3 that I recently put new Yamaha hammers on, thinking it would solve the voicing problems with the old, much-played-on hammers.  The piano sounds good up to ff, then acquires a metallic buzz in the attack sound.  I've been needling at the ends of the nascent string grooves, and in the upper shoulders.  Things are a little better, but not there yet.  The customer has shown great patience, but I need to find a solution!

    Would this technique be applicable?

    Thanks in advance,

    -Lawrence


    Lawrence Becker, RPT
    513-257-1477











  • 21.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2018 10:41
    Honestly probably not. This voicing is much more focussed on pianonissamo & improvimng tone gradient, etc. 

    I had the SAME issue on a warranty tuning when we were in Central Texas. Cust could not STAND that sound. Most pronounced right innthe middle! I called Yamaha tech support & got the great Greg Frank on the line. He suggested going straiht into the crown, like right in the dab center of each string mark (or thereabouts-new piano it was) with a single needle (not a huge needle) but fairly deep. Again, only like 3 STICHES! Then listen & see. There is rarely a justifiable reason to do this but I did it & it REALLY did the trick! I can explain further if interested but you could even do just one stitch at a time if you need to. I think it was about 1/2 inch or so. Better to go really deep 1 to 3 insertions to really see what it will do rather than screwing around and not going deep enough! Then you MAY have to decide "do I lengthen my needle and go in again??!!?! Aarrggh!!

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-12-2018 10:00
    Mr. Sanchez,
      You can get the same result in less time by using a checkering file and beating on the crown of the hammers. Hold the file backwards with the handle away from you. This will let the teeth of the file work with the natural arc of your arm motion. I've been using this technique on over lacquered Steinway hammers since 1992 or so. Please don't substitute either of these techniques for actually learning to voice properly. Yes, voicing is hard to learn and time consuming and there are almost no techniques that are universal across different hammer brands. But the time spent learning proper spacing, fitting, shaping and needling will pay dividends for years afterward as you progress in ability to assess and manipulate tone produced by the hammers.
      In the case you mention I'll assume you're working on New York hammers. In which case you should be using a single needle 4-5mm long on the contact point of the hammer. listen to the notes in question and use mutes to listen to one string at a time. Needle the contact point of the string that sounds worst 2-5 stitches right in the groove. put the action back in place and listen again. Use blue painters tape and chalk on the key upstop rail and develop a marking system to let you know which strings on which notes need improvement and you can get the number of times you pull and re-insert the action down into double digits.
      No disrespect intended to others who have posted here but in my time spent around a piano factory I have seen the result of a senior operator teaching a new operator a technique of last resort before the younger operator really had a firm grasp of the proper technique. All too often within a short time the technique of last resort became standard. Anyone rebuilding American pianos made in the mid 20th century will know what I mean.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 23.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-12-2018 11:38
    Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that, in fact, the same basic techniques can be applied to both lacquered and denser pressed hammers. I routinely voice Steinway lacquered (not over-lacquered) hammers using 3 needle deep shoulder (10 mm) needling, tapering to shallower insertions close to the crown, the latter angling away from the very apex of the crown. For relatively major maintenance voicing, this will mean 4 - 5 deep, and 2 - 3 shallower on each shoulder. 

    For minor maintenance voicing, I typically use a 5 needle in a straight line tool (from Jurgen), with fine needles (#10 or #12 quilting) protruding 3 mm, usually inserted in line with the grooves (in the grooves for most maintenance - to take off the bright edge that has developed by playing. Between the grooves for una corda).

    Just giving another perspective and approach. This has served me quite well for many years. I find that lacquered hammers respond the same - if they haven't been over-lacquered, meaning the needles can be inserted in the shoulders to their full depth. Lots of folks use FAR too much lacquer, IMO, but that is another discussion.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico






  • 24.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Posted 05-12-2018 23:43
    Here is a compass needle voicing tool I made a few years ago.
    It is made of brass and has a good weight for the needling and the other 
    end  works as a ballpeen.thumbnail image



                      






    ------------------------------
    Jack Houweling
    Piano Technician
    www.Jackspiano.com
    Delta B.C.
    604 970-3371
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-13-2018 00:09
    Very impressive Jack!! 

    (Any idea how many ounces it weighs?)

    ------------------------------
    [Kevin] [Fortenberry] [RPT]
    [Staff Techician]
    [Texas Tech Univ]
    [Lubbock] [TX]
    [8067783962]
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Voicing Out Metallic Noise

    Posted 05-13-2018 00:47
    I don't know exactly, but I used a piece of brass,  L 5" x diameter  1"  which weighs 1.2lbs.
    After it is turned down it will  be under 1lb.

    ------------------------------
    Jack Houweling
    Piano Technician
    www.Jackspiano.com
    Delta B.C.
    604 970-3371
    ------------------------------