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Brahms Temperament

  • 1.  Brahms Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2013 21:08
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussions: Piano History and Fine Aural Tuning .
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    Does anyone have any knowledge of what temperament use for Brahms' pianos?  I am familiar with several pre-1800 temperaments, but do not know much about the later taste in tuning.  (And don't cop out and tell me Equal Temperament.)

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    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Safety Harbor FL
    727-539-9602
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  • 2.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2013 21:49
    Not a cop out, an informed historical opinion: equal temperament.

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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  • 3.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 06-16-2013 19:45
    Hi!

    Whilst searching videos this evening I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9vHGQm0UY which is a great example of the colour that an unequal temperament demonstrates in Beethoven.

    The reason specifically for opening up this thread again, however, is that we had a rather surprising performance - of Brahms in Meantone. . . .

    This was on an organ of 1856 with pipework bearing signs of being ancient. To play Brahms on meantone is laughable . . . but many audience were most moved by this piece in particular and were raving about it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFErBGuB26o

    I hope you might enjoy it also.

    Incidentally at the very beginning of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lbNdHBtbvw you can hear the cellist tuning. On the bottom two strings aren't the harmonic overtones beautiful? It's when overtones such as this line up within a piano tuning that great beauty shines through and adds selectively in keys tuned with an unequal temperament, very often with near pure thirds singing beating slowly against the Tierce overtone of a lower harmonic note. This particular recording of the Beethoven Sonata for piano and cello in G minor is an example of an instrumentalist adapting to a piano not tuned to equal temperament.

    (On that recording I'd much appreciate comments on which microphone /.recorder gives the most natural rendition. Many thanks!)

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar
    Curator and house tuner
    East Grinstead

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  • 4.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 06-17-2013 00:50
    In response to your request for comments, David.
    Using Apple earbuds connected to a Bose system connected to a Mac Pro, I have to go with the  JVC M201 stereo mic without reservation.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 5.  Brahms Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-13-2013 22:35
    Greeetings, ET does one thing, the palette of a well temperament does another. Listen to both and decide for yourself. My preference for Brahms would be something other than ET. I would suggest keeping the M3's maximum width below 18 cents. The Coleman 11 tuning is basically an idealized representation of some late 19th century non-ET values that would do this, and do it very well. Regards, Ed Foote RPT


  • 6.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 04-14-2013 10:15
    I've heard some nice  recordings of a Mason & Hamlin
    recently that was tuned to Bill Bremer's EBVT III which
    has color and yet is mild enough. It is a "Well Temperament"
    but not ET. The offsets are at his website. You might
    find this to be acceptable.
    http:/www.billbremer.com

    I intend to start using this WT.

    Incidently, there is one murky recording
    of Brahms playing, but I doubt that
    you can hear a temperament effect
    from it, it is so scratchy.


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    Richard Adkins
    Coe College
    Piano Technician
    Cedar Rapids IA
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  • 7.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 04-14-2013 13:29
    The DiVeroli (Almost Equal) is a good replacement for ET.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 8.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 04-14-2013 18:06

    Fred Sturm is absolutely right. The historical literature leaves no room for doubt that equal temperament was universally prescribed in 19th century German literature on piano and organ tuning, music theory, composition, and acoustics. ET had already essential become the recommended temperament from about 1750 onwards, although undoubtedly some continued to prefer slight differences in key color. However, as the century draws to a close, references to such a preference become increasingly rare, and ET is ever more roundly praised as being the most perfect of all temperaments. That's not including Kirnberger, of course, whose crude Just/Pythagorean mix was so far outside of the mainstream of prevailing theory and practice that it cannot be considered anything other than an historical curiosity, which as Marpurg said, was "praised by many, used by no one".

    In terms of actual practice, it's quite likely that many musicians/tuners continued to use slightly unequal circulating temperaments up through the first decades of the 19th century, either by choice or by accident, but by the times of Brahms birth, ET would have been expected of any competent tuner, even if were imperfectly implemented. Even with Sorge's method (c. 1750), if you are careful and demanding, you can get so close that any deviation is musically inconsequential, especially if you use a well-constructed monochord as guidance, as he recommended. Any technical limitation in terms of implementation disappears completely with the publication of Scheibler's method in 1834. With the various further explications and elaborations published soon thereafter, most notably those of Loehr (1836) and Töpfer (1842), it became quite easy to tune an absolutely-perfect ET, even without the aide of Scheibler's forks. His methodology was referred to and highly-praised over and over again in all manner of subsequent publications, such as articles in the AMZ, books on acoustics, piano making, etc, so any German tuner during the second half of the 19th c. who didn't know about it would have simply been incompetent.



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    Paul Poletti
    Builder/restorer historic keyboard instruments
    Poletti Pianos
    Barcelona


  • 9.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 04-15-2013 01:27
    How much of a noticeable difference is achieved by slightly unequal temperaments? Is the difference aurally obvious or simply emotional/psychological? Is equal temperament sterile in terms of key color when compared to unequal temperaments? Because variety is often desirable in composition it seems that variation in temperaments and key color would further enhance music, making key changes etc more interesting. Opinions? Comments? ------------------------------------------- Jason Leininger Las Vegas NM 412-874-6992 -------------------------------------------


  • 10.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-15-2013 08:24
    I graduated from New England Conservatory (classical guitar major - not piano) and never heard any discussion of various temperaments except within the early music department. Dan Pinkam was head of early music at the time and there there was a beginning movement toward "historically accurate" performance. Since graduating from N.E.C. I've always kept "one foot" in the professional music world and have never heard any mention from musicians (classical or jazz) of various temperaments. After 35 + years in the piano service business, I've never been asked to tune anything other than equal temperament. My point is that this may be a topic of conversation among the early music community and some musical academics - but it seems (to me at least) to be primarily an esoteric conversation among piano technicians.  No question that with the advance of electronic instruments there will continue to be more widespread use of "microtonal" music, but this is really a separate issue from "temperament".
    Guitarists often use alternate tuning schemes (not the same as alternate temperaments) but there are only 6 strings to deal with and all guitarists must learn how to tune their own instruments - it only takes a few minutes anyway. Since it is highly impractical to retune a piano between pieces (I'm not talking about tuning between performances) we should probably all just plan to stick with E.T.
    I.M.H.O.
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    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill MA
    978-372-2250
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  • 11.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 04-20-2013 15:50
    Does scale design have any influence on temperament? For example do modern scale designs assume ET, and if so, does this have any effect on how a piano will sound under a given temperament? Or is the difference so small that it is negligible? Also can someone post a list of primary source readings related to various tuning methods? Thanks. ------------------------------------------- Jason Leininger Las Vegas NM 412-874-6992 -------------------------------------------


  • 12.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Posted 04-20-2013 18:11
    I am not aware of any historical string keyboard instruments in which the scaling is made to express unequal temperaments. Perhaps fretted clavichords could be contrrived to be seen that way. A few early harpsicchords included a monochord for tuning, expressing, I believe, meantone temperament. For reading, begin with Fred Sturm's temperament series. See his Montal series for a reproduction of Montal's partition (temperament pattern). Montal's partition is fairly easy to reproduce. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 13.  RE:Brahms Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2013 19:00
    Scaling is independent of temperament. I guess you could say that all scaling is more or less based on ET, as the string lengths are in a consistent logarithmic curve. This is true of harpsichords as well as pianos. You will see vestiges of different tuning in organ pipe lengths, and sometimes in fretted clavichords.

    If you want to read primary source materials about tuning, you need to be capable of reading Italian, French, German, and possibly Latin. There are some that have been translated, but not not that many. If you have a specific area of interest, I could point you in a direction. Eg., Germany, 1700-1750 or France, 1650-1700. A very thorough text, generally quite reliable (though one can argue with some of the details and interpretations) is Claudio Di Veroli's Unequal Temperaments (e-book). It gives a pretty good account of the major source materials, and has important excerpts in original and/or translation. http://temper.braybaroque.ie/

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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