Pianotech

I don't believe Corfam for a minute. I've seen the original stuff, that was tough and fairly stiff but not hard, and I've seen plenty of the post formula change stuff that petrified into concrete. This is entirely different material. Still pliable but sticky and disintegrating into what looks like cobwebs through the years. I've run into it enough times to indicate that a fair number of pianos were made with this stuff. I keep hoping someone out there has some real information. Ron N

Ron N said:
<I don't believe Corfam for a minute.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, I don't much care.  The fact is that the black material that Baldwin used as a substitute for buckskin was Corfam.  I worked for Baldwin for ten years in the 80's and 90's.  While I worked in R & D, I was involved in discussions with Kent Webb, in Tech support, regarding how to deal with the continuing nightmare of dealing with resolution of the problems resulting from Baldwin's use of Corfam in the 60's and 70's.

Before going to work at Baldwin, I had replaced Corfam in dozens of Baldwin Hamilton pianos at Ball State University.  My experience there was common to yours with respect to the black powdery residue, spider web appearance, hardness of the material, and the noise that it produced.  I had not observed the sticky characteristic that you describe.  I can only guess that another substance was introduced, possibly linseed oil or the like, in a futile effort to revitalize the material.

DuPont introduced Corfam in 1964.  After spending millions of dollars promoting it, they eventually abandoned it, for obvious reasons, in 1971.  Others have continued to produce it, primarily for military, police, and other such uniform shoes.  It disappeared from most other applications around 1971.  Today we associate Corfam with high-sheen footware.  In the day that it was used by Baldwin, DuPont customized the surface treatment of the material to Baldwin's specification, more similar to what we would associate with buckskin or suede. 

Ron N said:
<I keep hoping someone out there has some real information.

There is your real information, whether you choose to accept it or not.

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George (Frank) Emerson, RPT
Silver Springs FL
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Hi George
So, the "fake leather" (as I used to call it, until your description) was Corfam - I have seen many hamiltons with this material without the "black" coating. I thought the black coating was an attempt to stop the scraping noise and added after the material turned to rock, and always wondered what the coating was. I thought it was graphite... I am not disagreeing with you in any way, nor am I pretending to know what it is - just curious as to whether the black coating was added, or was the black coating part of the corfam, and... while I'm at it.. what is the black coating if it was added later?
Dave


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David Estey, RPT
www.EsteyPiano.com
Piano Tuners Sales Tips for the week. FREE! Sign up here:
http://coolstuffformusicians.com/fine-tuning-your-salesmanship
Creating Harmony in a World filled with Discord.
1-800-ON A PIANO (662-7426)
dave@esteypiano.com

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Original Message:
Sent: 11-25-2011 01:19
From: George Emerson
Subject: Black Butt Baldwin

Ron N said:
<I don't believe Corfam for a minute.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, I don't much care.  The fact is that the black material that Baldwin used as a substitute for buckskin was Corfam.  I worked for Baldwin for ten years in the 80's and 90's.  While I worked in R & D, I was involved in discussions with Kent Webb, in Tech support, regarding how to deal with the continuing nightmare of dealing with resolution of the problems resulting from Baldwin's use of Corfam in the 60's and 70's.

Before going to work at Baldwin, I had replaced Corfam in dozens of Baldwin Hamilton pianos at Ball State University.  My experience there was common to yours with respect to the black powdery residue, spider web appearance, hardness of the material, and the noise that it produced.  I had not observed the sticky characteristic that you describe.  I can only guess that another substance was introduced, possibly linseed oil or the like, in a futile effort to revitalize the material.

DuPont introduced Corfam in 1964.  After spending millions of dollars promoting it, they eventually abandoned it, for obvious reasons, in 1971.  Others have continued to produce it, primarily for military, police, and other such uniform shoes.  It disappeared from most other applications around 1971.  Today we associate Corfam with high-sheen footware.  In the day that it was used by Baldwin, DuPont customized the surface treatment of the material to Baldwin's specification, more similar to what we would associate with buckskin or suede. 

Ron N said:
<I keep hoping someone out there has some real information.

There is your real information, whether you choose to accept it or not.

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George (Frank) Emerson, RPT
Silver Springs FL
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Dave,

The black stuff was not an added material to a previously used material.  It was an integral part of the manufacturing process to produce Corfam.  It is basically a core fabric, usually polyester, coated with a plastic, usually polyurethane.  That is an oversimplification.  The process is complex enough that DuPont was not concerned about competitors being able to replicate it any time soon.  In 1963, DuPont allied for a patent for this material, which they called poromeric, under the brand name of Corfam.  At the 1964 World Fair, Corfam was the centerpiece of DuPont's exhibit.  In 1966 the patent was issued.  By 1971, they discontinued production of Corfam and sold the rights to it, to some sucker in Poland.  In the meantime many other companies jumped on the bandwagon with "look alike" products.  It was never considered, by DuPont, to be a technical failure, so much as a market analysis failure.  They expected it to make leather obsolete in the footwear industry.  They attributed the failure to consumers rejecting it due to complaints that the shoes never "broke in," and standing in the sun, they would roast the wearer's toes.  Having worn them in military formations, I can attest to both of these complaints.

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George (Frank) Emerson, RPT
Silver Springs FL
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So, the "fake leather" (as I used to call it, until your description) was Corfam - I have seen many hamiltons with this material without the "black" coating. I thought the black coating was an attempt to stop the scraping noise and added after the material turned to rock, and always wondered what the coating was. I thought it was graphite... I am not disagreeing with you in any way, nor am I pretending to know what it is - just curious as to whether the black coating was added, or was the black coating part of the corfam, and... while I'm at it.. what is the black coating if it was added later?
Dave

-------------------------------------------
David Estey, RPT
www.EsteyPiano.com
Piano Tuners Sales Tips for the week. FREE! Sign up here:
http://coolstuffformusicians.com/fine-tuning-your-salesmanship
Creating Harmony in a World filled with Discord.
1-800-ON A PIANO (662-7426)
dave@esteypiano.com
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Emerson: "The fact is that the black material that Baldwin used as a substitute for buckskin was Corfam."

If the black stuff is Corfam, what is the tan stuff? Maybe we have been given the wrong name for the tan stuff - I always assumed that was Corfam. Baldwin would provide warrantee support, at least providing materials, for replacing that stuff with leather, and I thought they were calling it Corfam.

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Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein
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