Pianotech

Hello,

As I am reading "Pianos Inside Out", it talks about lubricating the strings at bearing points before tuning with Protek CLP or Prolube "unless the piano (or its strings) is less than a few years old or you live in a consistently dry climate".  See pages 113 and 114.  In 14 years as a piano tech, I have never lubricated string bearings, but I did live in western Nebraska, where it is perpetually dry with very low humidity.  Now that I have moved to Virginia where there is a lot more humidity, I have a few questions about this:

1.  Is this something that piano techs really consistently do?
2.  Do you do it every time you tune each piano?
3.  How would you lubricate the string bearings of the treble bridge in an upright behind the action?
4.  Any tips and tricks on how to do this quickly and effectively?

It seems like lubricating every bearing before a tuning would take a decent amount of time and effort, so I would love to see comments of what people think about this.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
434-841-7735
-------------------------------------------

Hi, David: I think you have to be careful with this. Putting anything on the bridge is a huge red flag for me. I think mainly when we talk about bearing points we're talking about capo bars and pressure bars and any points from the tuning pin to the speaking length. Putting lube on the bridges isn't something I'd want to do, mainly because it's not needed to prevent string breakage there, and I want to make sure the strings are moving the bridge pins and cap, not sliding past them. We want as firm a termination there as possible. To prevent breakage from rust, putting a small drop of lube on the pressure bar and/or upper point in an upright piano can't hurt (unless you go overboard and spray it all over the place). But, removing the action and lubing the bridges and pins isn't a good idea in my opinion. Long ago we had a tech who put oil there, and it softened the bridge caps and killed the tone, in addition to getting into dampers and hammer felt. There's more to that story, but anyway, even if you just let the tension down slightly to break any rust bonds it will help. I remember a very reputable technician used to use Liquid Wrench on rusty strings at the terminations, but you'd have to be very careful with it. It will tend to creep and it smells bad too. I sometimes use Protek, myself. YMMV Paul McCloud San Diego
Original Message ----- From: "David Pritchard" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:43:29 AM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points Hello, As I am reading "Pianos Inside Out", it talks about lubricating the strings at bearing points before tuning with Protek CLP or Prolube "unless the piano (or its strings) is less than a few years old or you live in a consistently dry climate". See pages 113 and 114. In 14 years as a piano tech, I have never lubricated string bearings, but I did live in western Nebraska, where it is perpetually dry with very low humidity. Now that I have moved to Virginia where there is a lot more humidity, I have a few questions about this: 1. Is this something that piano techs really consistently do? 2. Do you do it every time you tune each piano? 3. How would you lubricate the string bearings of the treble bridge in an upright behind the action? 4. Any tips and tricks on how to do this quickly and effectively? It seems like lubricating every bearing before a tuning would take a decent amount of time and effort, so I would love to see comments of what people think about this. Thanks! ------------------------------------------- David Pritchard Forest VA 434-841-7735 -------------------------------------------

My dad, who was also a piano tech, would take the cap of a wd-40 spray can, spray some wd into it and then use small paint brush to brush over the v-bar...especially if there was evidence of rust.    Protech is probably more advanced that wd-40.


-------------------------------------------
BD,RPT....FWA
Fort Wayne IN
260-417-1298
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2013 11:43
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hello,

As I am reading "Pianos Inside Out", it talks about lubricating the strings at bearing points before tuning with Protek CLP or Prolube "unless the piano (or its strings) is less than a few years old or you live in a consistently dry climate".  See pages 113 and 114.  In 14 years as a piano tech, I have never lubricated string bearings, but I did live in western Nebraska, where it is perpetually dry with very low humidity.  Now that I have moved to Virginia where there is a lot more humidity, I have a few questions about this:

1.  Is this something that piano techs really consistently do?
2.  Do you do it every time you tune each piano?
3.  How would you lubricate the string bearings of the treble bridge in an upright behind the action?
4.  Any tips and tricks on how to do this quickly and effectively?

It seems like lubricating every bearing before a tuning would take a decent amount of time and effort, so I would love to see comments of what people think about this.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
434-841-7735
-------------------------------------------

On 11/7/2013 10:43 AM, David Pritchard wrote: > > Hello, > > > 1. Is this something that piano techs really consistently do? I don't. It isn't necessary. A quick tick back on the tuning lever will break the friction, and it will tune normally. The exception is that yard of cloth between the agraffes and tuning pins in the low tenor. In extreme cases you literally can't tune the piano without doing something about the drag. Protek is the thing there, and only on that under string cloth. I've only found it necessary (very rarely) to lubricate metallic bearing points when the string creaked or jumped as it was moved after the initial movement. Never lubricate a bridge. Ron N

I agree with Ron on this. Lubricating bearing points should be viewed as a repair and only done when really necessary (which isn't very often). "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Moreover, everything that becomes a routine part of a service call must ultimately be reflected in the price we charge. It is only fair to our customers, therefore, that we don't ad extras that are not demonstrably beneficial.  

-------------------------------------------
Gerry Johnston
Haverhill, MA
gj@gjpianotuner.com
www.gjpianotuner.com
(978) 372-2250
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-08-2013 08:18
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/7/2013 10:43 AM, David Pritchard wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
> 1. Is this something that piano techs really consistently do?

I don't. It isn't necessary. A quick tick back on the tuning lever will
break the friction, and it will tune normally. The exception is that
yard of cloth between the agraffes and tuning pins in the low tenor. In
extreme cases you literally can't tune the piano without doing something
about the drag. Protek is the thing there, and only on that under string
cloth. I've only found it necessary (very rarely) to lubricate metallic
bearing points when the string creaked or jumped as it was moved after
the initial movement. Never lubricate a bridge.
Ron N

On 11/8/2013 6:40 PM, Gerry Johnston wrote: > > I agree with Ron on this. Lubricating bearing points should be viewed > as a repair and only done when really necessary (which isn't very > often). "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Moreover, everything that > becomes a routine part of a service call must ultimately be reflected > in the price we charge. It is only fair to our customers, therefore, > that we don't ad extras that are not demonstrably beneficial. A refreshing and welcome change from the too standard "anything to milk an extra buck from a service call" attitude. Thank you. Ron N

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11/7/2013 11:43:29 AM
From: david@davidpritchard.com
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hello, As I am reading "Pianos Inside Out", it talks about lubricating the strings at bearing points before tuning with Protek CLP or Prolube "unless the piano (or its strings) is less than a few years old or you live in a consistently dry climate".  See pages 113 and 114.  In 14 years as a piano tech, I have never lubricated string bearings, but I did live in western Nebraska, where it is perpetually dry with very low humidity.  Now that I have moved to Virginia where there is a lot more humidity, I have a few questions about this: 1.  Is this something that piano techs really consistently do? 2.  Do you do it every time you tune each piano? 3.  How would you lubricate the string bearings of the treble bridge in an upright behind the action? 4.  Any tips and tricks on how to do this quickly and effectively? It seems like lubricating every bearing before a tuning would take a decent amount of time and effort, so I would love to see comments of what people think about this. Thanks! ------------------------------------------- David Pritchard Forest VA 434-841-7735 -------------------------------------------

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Yikes! Yes, yes Jeffery. I assumed it is clearly understood to NOT use WD-40! As I said I only use Protek CLP (Clean, Lubricate & Protect). 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Dear Scott,

    I posted rather forcefully...I admit it...because it has been a real trial to me out here. I had to edit that post several times to remove my true feelings about the ....gentleman....who does this as a regular practice. It is the brew of WD-40, and the amazing amount of creep that never ends from Water-Displacement Formula 40 that gets my ire. I am less worried about Protec, or such non-petroleum products, but I'll forever remain extremely cautious about 'lubing' strings from my experience.

    I do, rarely and with much questioning and outright panic, find that I HAVE to do something about extreme rendering issues on grands with too much pressure on the understring felt or super-long understring felt/string interface...in such a case I will use a hypo-oiler and apply as little as I can; Protec by choice, too. It is an effective and prudent response to an issue, but (for me) will not be a 'regular practice'.

    No worries, sir!
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:58
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Yikes! Yes, yes Jeffery. I assumed it is clearly understood to NOT use WD-40! As I said I only use Protek CLP (Clean, Lubricate & Protect). 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

There was a guy down here that used to oil every piano he touched. It wasn't just WD-40, it was Slick-50, Tributech, any engine treatment-du-jour. And vaseline on the tuning pins. We had a pinblock in our shop that was so much soaked with oil that the label we taped to it got soaked with. His initials were D.R. God love him, he ruined thousands of pianos. He told me personally that to break a string was the worst thing you could do on a piano. I'd see a church piano and notice the fuzzies on the strings near the agraffes. There was always a business card glued under the music desk or upright lid, and also under the bench top. And he kept notes of each tuning printed on the top hammers. I could spot one of his pianos a mile away. HOwever, I don't remember seeing any broken strings. Something worked.. Except the pianos often wouldn't hold a tune, and had no sustain or good tone. Another piano I worked on had been thoroughly sprayed and soaked with what must have been WD40. The wood was so soft, in the flanges and wippens, that they were almost worthless. Many broke. Did I mention, oil and wood don't mix? Paul McCloud San Diego
Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Hickey" To: "Paul McCloud" Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2013 11:33:34 AM Subject: [PTG Pianotech]: RE:Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points Dear Scott, I posted rather forcefully...I admit it...because it has been a real trial to me out here. I had to edit that post several times to remove my true feelings about the ....gentleman....who does this as a regular practice. It is the brew of WD-40, and the amazing amount of creep that never ends from Water-Displacement Formula 40 that gets my ire. I am less worried about Protec, or such non-petroleum products, but I'll forever remain extremely cautious about 'lubing' strings from my experience. I do, rarely and with much questioning and outright panic, find that I HAVE to do something about extreme rendering issues on grands with too much pressure on the understring felt or super-long understring felt/string interface...in such a case I will use a hypo-oiler and apply as little as I can; Protec by choice, too. It is an effective and prudent response to an issue, but (for me) will not be a 'regular practice'. No worries, sir! ------------------------------------------- Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT North Bend OR tunerjeff@aol.com Portland Chapter #972 -------------------------------------------

I am working on an action where an oily substance ended up on the keys. Feels and smells like WD-40 residue. Fortunately it didn't penetrate too deeply and the wood feels good. It got on capstans, and now there are dark stains on some wippen heel felts. I am with you on keeping WD-40 away from wood, especially the pinblock. The only time I've used it, and been criticized for it, is on agraffes. I still think it can be helpful when fitting agraffes if kept away from wood. 

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 14:33
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Scott,

    I posted rather forcefully...I admit it...because it has been a real trial to me out here. I had to edit that post several times to remove my true feelings about the ....gentleman....who does this as a regular practice. It is the brew of WD-40, and the amazing amount of creep that never ends from Water-Displacement Formula 40 that gets my ire. I am less worried about Protec, or such non-petroleum products, but I'll forever remain extremely cautious about 'lubing' strings from my experience.

    I do, rarely and with much questioning and outright panic, find that I HAVE to do something about extreme rendering issues on grands with too much pressure on the understring felt or super-long understring felt/string interface...in such a case I will use a hypo-oiler and apply as little as I can; Protec by choice, too. It is an effective and prudent response to an issue, but (for me) will not be a 'regular practice'.

    No worries, sir!
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------

Hi Mario,

You use WD-40 on the agraffe threads, or some place else? And you have not found that it migrates to places you don't want it to be?

-------------------------------------------
Alan Eder
Valencia CA
661-904-6483
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2013 10:10
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

I am working on an action where an oily substance ended up on the keys. Feels and smells like WD-40 residue. Fortunately it didn't penetrate too deeply and the wood feels good. It got on capstans, and now there are dark stains on some wippen heel felts. I am with you on keeping WD-40 away from wood, especially the pinblock. The only time I've used it, and been criticized for it, is on agraffes. I still think it can be helpful when fitting agraffes if kept away from wood. 

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 14:33
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Scott,

    I posted rather forcefully...I admit it...because it has been a real trial to me out here. I had to edit that post several times to remove my true feelings about the ....gentleman....who does this as a regular practice. It is the brew of WD-40, and the amazing amount of creep that never ends from Water-Displacement Formula 40 that gets my ire. I am less worried about Protec, or such non-petroleum products, but I'll forever remain extremely cautious about 'lubing' strings from my experience.

    I do, rarely and with much questioning and outright panic, find that I HAVE to do something about extreme rendering issues on grands with too much pressure on the understring felt or super-long understring felt/string interface...in such a case I will use a hypo-oiler and apply as little as I can; Protec by choice, too. It is an effective and prudent response to an issue, but (for me) will not be a 'regular practice'.

    No worries, sir!
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------

I've used it mainly to flush the threads inside plate holes, with the plate out of the piano. I've cleaned excess with alcohol (or solvent if regilding the plate). If I was removing an agraffe with the plate in the piano, I'd prop a cloth against the bottom of the hole to collect excess of whatever I applied inside the hole. 

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2013 11:11
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi Mario,

You use WD-40 on the agraffe threads, or some place else? And you have not found that it migrates to places you don't want it to be?

-------------------------------------------
Alan Eder
Valencia CA
661-904-6483
-------------------------------------------

Never never ever use LSP LSD or anything containing oil stuffs on any piano.  It will cause a lot of gathering of dust and grime and stuffs.  You just don't want that!  DAHIK. Clean stuff, or repin.    that it all.

Paul


-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 14:54
From: Paul Williams
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Never never ever use LSP LSD or anything containing oil stuffs on any piano.  It will cause a lot of gathering of dust and grime and stuffs.  You just don't want that!  DAHIK. Clean stuff, or repin.    that it all.

Paul


-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

The only piano that needs oil on its "tuning pins" is a screw stringer. They do require it to keep from rusting and breaking.

hello,Jeffrey
How are you?
i own a hailun grand.

well something bad occurs to my hailun grand piano.
yesterday,i noticed there are  a few rusty spots on my bass strings,which locate at the end  and the top (near the tunning pins) of the strings.

i rush to use the WD40 on a cotton swab,and apply it on the area where those spots are.

unfortunately , 1 drop of the WD40 slides down along the pin to the wood pin bushing.

then i searched online and started to know the stragging fact that Wd40 is a killer for piano.

so how,serious is this case,will my piano be unable to tune in 1 orv2 years after?

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/5/2020 10:00:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

hello,Jeffrey
How are you?
i own a hailun grand.

well something bad occurs to my hailun grand piano.
yesterday,i noticed there are  a few rusty spots on my bass strings,which locate at the end  and the top (near the tunning pins) of the strings.

i rush to use the WD40 on a cotton swab,and apply it on the area where those spots are.

unfortunately , 1 drop of the WD40 slides down along the pin to the wood pin bushing.

then i searched online and started to know the stragging fact that Wd40 is a killer for piano.

so how,serious is this case,will my piano be unable to tune in 1 orv2 years after?

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

Phew!  This is an ancient thread!

I tested many different materials as string preservatives (rust inhibitors) and found Marvel Mystery Oil to be one of the best at preventing corrosion.  I add a very few drops of Marvel Mystery Oil in CLP and apply to the strings.  After several years there has been no migration and minimal dust collection and (it seems to me) there are fewer broken strings.
My grandfather used 3 in 1 oil and I once used that regularly, but then I noticed that I was having a lot of sticking strings and I quit 3 in 1.  I found that Liquid Wrench worked well as a string lubricant and used that until they changed their formula and the new version didn't work as well (and stank badly).
Tuning technique is more important than string lubricant IMHO and I use a string lubricant more as CYA, and NEVER on bass strings!

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2020 05:52
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

A couple of decades ago I used drops of 3-in-1 oil on the agraffes of the 1885 Bechstein at Hammerwood with no discernible disbenefit but since, to prevent rust as the place is unheated and very damp in the winter (80%RH), I've used a cloth with silicone oil wiping it over the steel strings, not bass.

WD40 is such a seductive product it's good to have confirmation in practical terms of just how bad it can be.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/5/2020 10:00:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

hello,Jeffrey
How are you?
i own a hailun grand.

well something bad occurs to my hailun grand piano.
yesterday,i noticed there are  a few rusty spots on my bass strings,which locate at the end  and the top (near the tunning pins) of the strings.

i rush to use the WD40 on a cotton swab,and apply it on the area where those spots are.

unfortunately , 1 drop of the WD40 slides down along the pin to the wood pin bushing.

then i searched online and started to know the stragging fact that Wd40 is a killer for piano.

so how,serious is this case,will my piano be unable to tune in 1 orv2 years after?

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 13:40
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Dear Folks,

    One of the horrors I regularly face in my neck of the woods are pianos that a non-PTG member douses with WD-40. For whatever reason; he uses a cotton swab and wipes the tuning pins with the oil. Preventing string breakage? Stopping rust? It is as dangerous as it seems. Within a year or two the piano becomes untunable, and I write another death certificate. Putting penetrating lubricants within a 1/4-inch of the plate and bushing is just not a good idea. None of you has suggested such a thing, I'm just laying the groundwork for my observations about lubricating string bearings, ok?

    It  has taught me (over 20 years of seeing this practice) how FAR the WD-40 can travel and the effects it will have over the course of decades. The stuff just doesn't stop moving. It moves from the tuning pins into the pinblock. It moves down the strings into the coils of the bass strings and kills them; upright and grand both. It loosens the coils on the tuning pins and creates further instability in tuning (....a lesser evil than the slipping pins, but noticeable). It's just not a good idea, ok? I look inside these pianos and see wandering coils, a dark edge on the first two or three wraps of the bass strings that have gone dead, and know it will NOT be a good tuning day. All this from 'careful' application of a mere 'dab' of WD-40 on the tuning pins. Bleagh.

    I work on the Oregon Coast. I see rust. I also see no good longterm gain from using WD-40 anywhere NEAR the pins and strings. Rusty string pitch raises usually have a 'tick' as the string frees, and then no further noise if regularly tuned. I drop tension slightly, then tune the strings as usual. Recently tuned an orange/brown-stringed Winter spinet that had not been tuned since the 50's....raised it more than a third with NO broken strings. Lots of 'ticks' along the way, but nothing snapped. Have since tuned again (30 days) with no 'ticks' or broken strings.

    I will use Protek on the understring felt in problem pianos,  I certainly will NOT do it as a general practice and will never use petroleum-lubricants near pins or strings. Please learn from my hair-tearing experiences with the 'benefits' of applying WD-40 to tuning pins.

Banging my head against the wall,
Hairless,
I am,
-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972

Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

This is something I always do when tuning an unknown (new to me) piano with rusted or even apparently non-rusted strings. It doesn't matter whether the piano is being pitch-raised or not. I use a 'hypo' filled with CLP and apply to all string-to-bearing points - particularly Agraffes. The next thing I do is to slacken off each string before attempting to bring up the tension. Here I do not mean slacken off all the strings at once, but individually before bringing up to tension. I am sure this procedure  has saved me from many broken strings and you can count the number of blessings heaped upon you as the strings are relaxed with a 'ping' or a 'click' as the natural tension in the speaking length of the strings parts itself from a position it has been in for yonks. This is just one of those tips to new tuners which bears fruit.   Michael - from a very blue skied UK (at the moment) 

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

I can forsee lots of problems arising from the use of WD-40. The fact that this stuff 'travels' to unsuitable parts of the piano - such as the Wrest-Pin Block - must be born in mind IF one uses the stuff. Only use it on pedals myself. However I am wondering whether a piano in which WD-40 has had an effect on the wrest pins and their adherent quality (stiffness) in the pin block, can be resurrected (?) by a suitable use of CA.???. Worth a try before condemning it to the scrap heap?  Michael (UK)

-------------------------------------------
Michael Gamble
semi retired
Brighton
01273813612
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-09-2013 09:23
From: Scott Kerns
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hi David,

This is something I regularly do. I'm in eastern Nebraska and, as you may know, we can have lots of humidity here. I began doing it a couple of years ago when doing a pitch raise and found it very helpful. (I did a pitch raise yesterday on an old Schmoller & Mueller Spinet with rusty stings and none of them broke.) I've been using it more regularly than just pitch raises now. I use CLP with a needle point applicator and go over the bearing points pretty quickly over the top of the pressure bar and under. It's a very quick process and I don't charge extra for it. I don't use it on the bridge so there's no need to get behind the strings. I also loosen the string slightly before tightening to help things move better.

It's worked well for me although it's hard to measure these things. Would I have broken more strings if I hadn't done this? Who knows? I think it helps and even if it doesn't I haven't seen that it hurts anything. The CLP is safe for wood and felt. Give it a try!

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------

<< However I am wondering whether a piano in which WD-40 has had an effect on the wrest pins and their adherent quality (stiffness) in the pin block, can be resurrected (?) by a suitable use of CA.???. Worth a try before condemning it to the scrap heap?  Michael (UK)>>

Dear Michael,

    Sadly...every attempt to 'fix' these WD'd pianos has failed. I have used Dryburgh CA, off the shelf CA, tried pulling pins swabbing and installing larger pins. Acetone and alcohol wiping of the pins...not a darn thing actually cures the issue. I have extended the life of a couple by using CA, they hold a little better, but the 'fix' only lasts a little while...maybe another year or two...and then the pins start slipping again. I offer the CA treatment on the untunable instruments, but am careful to state that it may only delay the death, not cure it.

    I think that the contamination just gets back into the pin/block and lubes everything again. There is oil trapped in the coils of the pins that you just can't swab away. There is contamination under the plate. There is contamination soaked into the plate bushings...so it appears to me that the only fix is a new pinblock and restringing to get everything right again. AND carefully swabbing the plate before you replace the pinblock, too. It is a nightmare...and this from just a dab with a Q-tip swab on the tuning pin coils.

    If anyone has a 'cure' for this, I'd love to hear it. I have many, many, many pianos out here that could use it. Did I mention that I first encountered this on a Steinway Centennial Grand from the 50's? The little old lady just can't afford to rebuild the piano...but I can't tune it to hold for more than a day..actually I can't even get some strings to hold at all...(sigh). Welding??? Oh...the piano might just catch on fire, eh?


-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------
ps; The welding of the pins is something a technician out here actually encountered. Guy thought he could just call the tuner, and then tack each pin to the plate, and never have to call the tuner again! Did not work out like he hoped....

Wow! Wielding the pins to the plate. Why didn't I think of that ; )

You have some very "creative" people out in your neck o' the woods! 

-------------------------------------------
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-10-2013 13:12
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

<< However I am wondering whether a piano in which WD-40 has had an effect on the wrest pins and their adherent quality (stiffness) in the pin block, can be resurrected (?) by a suitable use of CA.???. Worth a try before condemning it to the scrap heap?  Michael (UK)>>

Dear Michael,

    Sadly...every attempt to 'fix' these WD'd pianos has failed. I have used Dryburgh CA, off the shelf CA, tried pulling pins swabbing and installing larger pins. Acetone and alcohol wiping of the pins...not a darn thing actually cures the issue. I have extended the life of a couple by using CA, they hold a little better, but the 'fix' only lasts a little while...maybe another year or two...and then the pins start slipping again. I offer the CA treatment on the untunable instruments, but am careful to state that it may only delay the death, not cure it.

    I think that the contamination just gets back into the pin/block and lubes everything again. There is oil trapped in the coils of the pins that you just can't swab away. There is contamination under the plate. There is contamination soaked into the plate bushings...so it appears to me that the only fix is a new pinblock and restringing to get everything right again. AND carefully swabbing the plate before you replace the pinblock, too. It is a nightmare...and this from just a dab with a Q-tip swab on the tuning pin coils.

    If anyone has a 'cure' for this, I'd love to hear it. I have many, many, many pianos out here that could use it. Did I mention that I first encountered this on a Steinway Centennial Grand from the 50's? The little old lady just can't afford to rebuild the piano...but I can't tune it to hold for more than a day..actually I can't even get some strings to hold at all...(sigh). Welding??? Oh...the piano might just catch on fire, eh?


-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------
ps; The welding of the pins is something a technician out here actually encountered. Guy thought he could just call the tuner, and then tack each pin to the plate, and never have to call the tuner again! Did not work out like he hoped....

Hey, Scott,
Continue sticking around, and you'll eventually learn how the real pros do piano repair work.
Just teasin'.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-10-2013 18:38
From: Scott Kerns
... Wow! Wielding the pins to the plate. Why didn't I think of that ; ) ...

Dear Scott,

    Oh? You want another?

    Similar situation; owner does not want to pay a tuner for another visit. Solution? Pour a gallon of epoxy into the webbing around the tuning pins to hold them in place forever. Epic FAIL. Required a lot of work to get the stuff clear.......another tuner (not me!) but in the area. Endless creativity is the mark of humanity. Yes/No? Alomost as cool as the guy who wanted to 'save the strings' for his daughter, who was going off to college. Solution? Grab a socket and take ALL the tension off every string in the piano. Got that one myself; owner called for a 'tuning'. Wheeeeee! 3 passes...and why did it cost more than a 'regular' tuning??? Uh.....because it was more work? Funny thing; this was only a couple months after she left for college....but was coming home for Spring Break. Duh!
;>)

Making lemonade,
I am,

-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
North Bend OR
tunerjeff@aol.com
Portland Chapter #972
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-10-2013 20:46
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hey, Scott,
Continue sticking around, and you'll eventually learn how the real pros do piano repair work.
Just teasin'.

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
tune-repair@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 11-10-2013 18:38
From: Scott Kerns
... Wow! Wielding the pins to the plate. Why didn't I think of that ; ) ...

Scott I do not believe that lubricating strings at the bearing points will help alleviate the danger of breaking strings during tuning. It seems to me that proper hammer technique prior to raising the pitch is helpful. During my 45 year tenure as a piano technician I have found that the only liquid that is helpful to me in piano work is Protec in conjunction with Garfield Center pin lubricant on sluggish action parts and a little mold release own front and balance rail pins. Most importantly I have learned over the years not to believe everything that I read concerning proper Piano repair technique.

-------------------------------------------
Thomas Black
Decatur AL
256-350-9315
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11/10/2013 6:38:38 PM
From: thattuningguy@gmail.com
Subject: RE:Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Wow! Wielding the pins to the plate. Why didn't I think of that ; ) You have some very "creative" people out in your neck o' the woods!  ------------------------------------------- Scott Kerns "That Tuning Guy" Lincoln, NE www.thattuningguy.com -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 11-10-2013 13:12 From: Jeffrey Hickey Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points << However I am wondering whether a piano in which WD-40 has had an effect on the wrest pins and their adherent quality (stiffness) in the pin block, can be resurrected (?) by a suitable use of CA.???. Worth a try before condemning it to the scrap heap?  Michael (UK)>> Dear Michael,     Sadly...every attempt to 'fix' these WD'd pianos has failed. I have used Dryburgh CA, off the shelf CA, tried pulling pins swabbing and installing larger pins. Acetone and alcohol wiping of the pins...not a darn thing actually cures the issue. I have extended the life of a couple by using CA, they hold a little better, but the 'fix' only lasts a little while...maybe another year or two...and then the pins start slipping again. I offer the CA treatment on the untunable instruments, but am careful to state that it may only delay the death, not cure it.     I think that the contamination just gets back into the pin/block and lubes everything again. There is oil trapped in the coils of the pins that you just can't swab away. There is contamination under the plate. There is contamination soaked into the plate bushings...so it appears to me that the only fix is a new pinblock and restringing to get everything right again. AND carefully swabbing the plate before you replace the pinblock, too. It is a nightmare...and this from just a dab with a Q-tip swab on the tuning pin coils.     If anyone has a 'cure' for this, I'd love to hear it. I have many, many, many pianos out here that could use it. Did I mention that I first encountered this on a Steinway Centennial Grand from the 50's? The little old lady just can't afford to rebuild the piano...but I can't tune it to hold for more than a day..actually I can't even get some strings to hold at all...(sigh). Welding??? Oh...the piano might just catch on fire, eh? ------------------------------------------- Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT North Bend OR tunerjeff@aol.com Portland Chapter #972 ------------------------------------------- ps; The welding of the pins is something a technician out here actually encountered. Guy thought he could just call the tuner, and then tack each pin to the plate, and never have to call the tuner again! Did not work out like he hoped....

What we encounter at bearing or termination angles of a piano string are vector products, or cross products. E.g., see attached diagram. The question is not to be seen in one direction, but is perpendicular in scope. Force is taking place in two directions at string bearing angles, not one. On a grand, those advocating lubricants are seeing this question as horizontal, against, vertical. Piano string, old and new, stays bent when you bend it. Lubricating to shift the vector product requires rebending the string at a different bearing angle. Inevitably, this will initially destablize the tuning. The question is what I gain from tuning the non-speaking length of the string. ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 11-10-2013 22:01 From: Thomas Black Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points Scott I do not believe that lubricating strings at the bearing points will help alleviate the danger of breaking strings during tuning. It seems to me that proper hammer technique prior to raising the pitch is helpful. During my 45 year tenure as a piano technician I have found that the only liquid that is helpful to me in piano work is Protec in conjunction with Garfield Center pin lubricant on sluggish action parts and a little mold release own front and balance rail pins. Most importantly I have learned over the years not to believe everything that I read concerning proper Piano repair technique. ------------------------------------------- Thomas Black Decatur AL 256-350-9315 -------------------------------------------

Wherever strings and metal bearings dull over time, lubrication should help. Dull = oxidized = greater friction = greater wear. So, by lubricating the bearings not only do strings render more responsively, but may eat less into the bearings. I don't have proof for this, but I picture a slick string cutting into the V bar less than an abrasive cord.

I'll never forget the first time I lubricated the front bearings in a piano with particularly poor string rendering. The strings had been binding terribly and felt "stretchy," but suddenly they were rendering smoothly and responding normally. The improvement was dramatic, and I started lubricating bearings in almost all pianos I tune. Tunings have been much more pleasant and take less time. I've had very few broken strings since. 

A lubrication can last several tunings, so you don't have to do it every time--string rendering will tell you. I find it especially important to lubricate counterbearing felts. Vacuum them first.

I focus on the V bar, counterbearing or pressure bar, and counterbearing felts. So far as applying the lubricant at bridge pins, I do it mostly in grands with oxidized strings that need a pitch raise. I'll apply CLP or Prolube with a moist but not dripping felt wedge from mid-tenor up, dabbing the wedge onto the strings from the speaking length side against the front bridge pins. I'll do the same from the rear duplex against the rear pins. I've looked at the pins with a magnifier and don't see the lubricant dripping or flowing into the wood. If it does, it does so in very small quantities, certainly much less than when applied to center pin bushings, and I haven't observed an appreciable change in the wood of hammer shanks and wippens treated with CLP. I haven't observed any increase in false beats or issues of any kind related to bridge pins or bridge caps. If someone has, I'd like to know.

Someone else in this thread said they apply the CLP with a hypo needle applicator. That seems a bit risky as those tiny drops have a way of leaving the needle when you least need them to. A felt wedge is my preferred medium. The only downside is that it gets dirty, but it can be washed with alcohol.

I place a mover's blanket and/or drop cloth next to the piano (I often put the bench on the blanket) and apply the lubricant to the tip of the felt wedge with a hypo oiler over the cloth. If the wedge is dry, I saturate the felt, and excess gets wicked away. While I have most of the lubricant concentrated at the tip, I'll insert the tip between the dampers and the capo bar, and dab where the strings meet the V car. Next, I'll do the same from the other side, then in the upper treble section, and then dab against the agraffes from both sides. Careful not to get close to the coils on bass strings or tuning pins. In verticals I dab where the strings meet the pressure bar except where tuning pins are so close to the pressure bar that the lubricant might get onto them. Next, I'll rub the strings over the counterbearings and felts. This is where I reapply the lubricant to the wedge more frequently. I store the wedge in a closable lunch bag and douse it with alocohol to clean the dirt it picks up.

Hope this helps and thank you for your interest in the book.

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2013 11:43
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hello,

As I am reading "Pianos Inside Out", it talks about lubricating the strings at bearing points before tuning with Protek CLP or Prolube "unless the piano (or its strings) is less than a few years old or you live in a consistently dry climate".  See pages 113 and 114.  In 14 years as a piano tech, I have never lubricated string bearings, but I did live in western Nebraska, where it is perpetually dry with very low humidity.  Now that I have moved to Virginia where there is a lot more humidity, I have a few questions about this:

1.  Is this something that piano techs really consistently do?
2.  Do you do it every time you tune each piano?
3.  How would you lubricate the string bearings of the treble bridge in an upright behind the action?
4.  Any tips and tricks on how to do this quickly and effectively?

It seems like lubricating every bearing before a tuning would take a decent amount of time and effort, so I would love to see comments of what people think about this.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
434-841-7735
-------------------------------------------

On 11/11/2013 9:10 AM, Mario Igrec wrote: > > I am with you on > keeping WD-40 away from wood, especially the pinblock. The only time > I've used it, and been criticized for it, is on agraffes. I still > think it can be helpful when fitting agraffes if kept away from > wood. Ballistol, Protek, any light oil, a smear of anti-seize compound, or nothing at all would be just as effective with no down side. Maybe even K-Y. I've replaced agraffes with no lubricant at all for years, with no problem. I do run a tap in to clean the threads first, which takes more time than I'd like but makes more difference than I expected. I consider WD-40 to be inappropriate for use anywhere near a piano in any capacity. There are better choices. This is not a universal attitude. Ron N

As I said, I have been criticized for it. I would add McLube 444 to your list. 

What makes WD-40 so unsuitable for metal parts in the piano? Does it migrate too much? Wherever I apply it (for example on bicyle bearings, shovels, hacksaw blades), I wipe it and don't see it invading surrounding surfaces. I would hate to see it on wood, though. Same with any other oil.

Outside pianos, I've looked for alternatives to WD-40 for rust protection and light lubrication, but whatever I tried is either too slippery and transfers and can't be removed from hands and clothing easily, or doesn't lubricate well. Someone suggested LPS 1. Any suggestions?

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2013 12:57
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/11/2013 9:10 AM, Mario Igrec wrote:
>
> I am with you on
> keeping WD-40 away from wood, especially the pinblock. The only time
> I've used it, and been criticized for it, is on agraffes. I still
> think it can be helpful when fitting agraffes if kept away from
> wood.

Ballistol, Protek, any light oil, a smear of anti-seize compound, or
nothing at all would be just as effective with no down side. Maybe even
K-Y. I've replaced agraffes with no lubricant at all for years, with no
problem. I do run a tap in to clean the threads first, which takes more
time than I'd like but makes more difference than I expected.

I consider WD-40 to be inappropriate for use anywhere near a piano in
any capacity. There are better choices. This is not a universal attitude.
Ron N

Mario;

I was taught from the get go studying with Steve Brady, to keep anything oil based in any form far away from pianos.  Oil will collect dust and debris and cause a lot of grief in the long run.  Especially around anything wood.  It will creep and destroy anything wood it gets into. 

Mc Lube 444, CLP is all fine if careful.  It can and does creep too.  Somebody issued a comment about applying with a hunk of thick felt.  I like that. I've used either the hypo oilers very carefully, or even little kid watercolor paint brushes in certain cases.  On rare occasions, my use can let out a drop "somewhere".m, but this is very rare and I'll look into it and clear it out if needed.

All in all, creepiing lubes can and will ruin your day, if not today, in the long run if it creeps to a bad place.

If time and reasonably accessable, I'll take the offending thing out, flitz polish and replace.  It works every time, but sometime time consuming or not realistic.  Or just replace the offender.  It all depends...

On strings, I really don't do anything other than making all clean, even wiping down during installation. ream agraffe holes if needed, replace bridge pins if you have to and on old pianos, will put a tiny drop of 444 or CLP on the understring felts or capo/Vbars if I desire. 

I don't do this on restringing jobs. lube wise, since everything is shiney and clean.  They didn't do it at factory (that I know), and lasted for decades.

Do what you wish to do.

Best,



-------------------------------------------
Paul T. Williams RPT
Piano Technician
Glenn Korff School of Music
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
pwilliams4@unl.edu

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-12-2013 14:41
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

As I said, I have been criticized for it. I would add McLube 444 to your list. 

What makes WD-40 so unsuitable for metal parts in the piano? Does it migrate too much? Wherever I apply it (for example on bicyle bearings, shovels, hacksaw blades), I wipe it and don't see it invading surrounding surfaces. I would hate to see it on wood, though. Same with any other oil.

Outside pianos, I've looked for alternatives to WD-40 for rust protection and light lubrication, but whatever I tried is either too slippery and transfers and can't be removed from hands and clothing easily, or doesn't lubricate well. Someone suggested LPS 1. Any suggestions?

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2013 12:57
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/11/2013 9:10 AM, Mario Igrec wrote:
>
> I am with you on
> keeping WD-40 away from wood, especially the pinblock. The only time
> I've used it, and been criticized for it, is on agraffes. I still
> think it can be helpful when fitting agraffes if kept away from
> wood.

Ballistol, Protek, any light oil, a smear of anti-seize compound, or
nothing at all would be just as effective with no down side. Maybe even
K-Y. I've replaced agraffes with no lubricant at all for years, with no
problem. I do run a tap in to clean the threads first, which takes more
time than I'd like but makes more difference than I expected.

I consider WD-40 to be inappropriate for use anywhere near a piano in
any capacity. There are better choices. This is not a universal attitude.
Ron N

Have you tried Tri-Flow? I like it for metal to metal (not my bicycle though). Actually I like WD-40 too, but I don't use either for piano work.

-------------------------------------------
Alan McCoy
Spokane WA
ahm2352@gmail.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-12-2013 14:41
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

As I said, I have been criticized for it. I would add McLube 444 to your list. 

What makes WD-40 so unsuitable for metal parts in the piano? Does it migrate too much? Wherever I apply it (for example on bicyle bearings, shovels, hacksaw blades), I wipe it and don't see it invading surrounding surfaces. I would hate to see it on wood, though. Same with any other oil.

Outside pianos, I've looked for alternatives to WD-40 for rust protection and light lubrication, but whatever I tried is either too slippery and transfers and can't be removed from hands and clothing easily, or doesn't lubricate well. Someone suggested LPS 1. Any suggestions?

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 11-11-2013 12:57
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/11/2013 9:10 AM, Mario Igrec wrote:
>
> I am with you on
> keeping WD-40 away from wood, especially the pinblock. The only time
> I've used it, and been criticized for it, is on agraffes. I still
> think it can be helpful when fitting agraffes if kept away from
> wood.

Ballistol, Protek, any light oil, a smear of anti-seize compound, or
nothing at all would be just as effective with no down side. Maybe even
K-Y. I've replaced agraffes with no lubricant at all for years, with no
problem. I do run a tap in to clean the threads first, which takes more
time than I'd like but makes more difference than I expected.

I consider WD-40 to be inappropriate for use anywhere near a piano in
any capacity. There are better choices. This is not a universal attitude.
Ron N

No. I'll check it out.

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-13-2013 12:01
From: Alan McCoy
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Have you tried Tri-Flow? I like it for metal to metal (not my bicycle though). Actually I like WD-40 too, but I don't use either for piano work.

-------------------------------------------
Alan McCoy
Spokane WA
ahm2352@gmail.com
-------------------------------------------

Sorry for the message here but for some reason, my computer will not let me start a new message. I need the hinges for the music rack for a Baldwin SD-10.  Schaff does not have them. Does the Gibson run Baldwin have them?

Thanks

-------------------------------------------
Ken Gerler, RPT

Gerler Piano & Organ Service
Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
314-355-2339
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2013 09:58
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

No. I'll check it out.

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-13-2013 12:01
From: Alan McCoy
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Have you tried Tri-Flow? I like it for metal to metal (not my bicycle though). Actually I like WD-40 too, but I don't use either for piano work.

-------------------------------------------
Alan McCoy
Spokane WA
ahm2352@gmail.com
-------------------------------------------

On 11/12/2013 1:41 PM, Mario Igrec wrote: > > As I said, I have been criticized for it. Welcome to the club. > I would add McLube 444 to your list. Fine, whatever. > What makes WD-40 so unsuitable for metal parts in the piano? Does it > migrate too much? Unlike the rest of the tech community, I'm not concerned with it migrating. It attracts dust, gets thick and gummy fairly quickly, and people don't seem to know where to stop with it. We've all seen instances where someone has hosed a piano down with the stuff and destroyed it. What metal parts on a piano need oiled? There seems to be a perceived, or at least imagined need to lubricate things that don't really need it. Metal on metal string bearing points don't really need oiled, and neither do agraffes for installation. There's Protek for felt/metal, or VJ, either of which are more benign than WD-40 and just as effective. I haven't used it, but Ballistol is reported to be pretty good stuff. As a light paraffin oil, it apparently doesn't get gummy or collect dust as obnoxiously as WD-40. What's wrong with it? What does WD-40 do for you that it won't do? > Outside pianos, I've looked for alternatives to WD-40 for rust > protection and light lubrication, but whatever I tried is either too > slippery and transfers and can't be removed from hands and clothing > easily, or doesn't lubricate well. Someone suggested LPS 1. Any > suggestions? I don't care about outside pianos. We're talking about inside pianos, last time I managed to pay attention. What anyone uses outside pianos is irrelevant. Ron N

I am not advocating WD-40. I used to flush agraffe hole threads (in the plate) with it because it was convenient and under pressure and I didn't have to remove it. 

Yes, it gets thick and is a dust/dirt magnet. But it also protects metal from rusting in my garage. That's why I asked about alternatives for non-piano uses. 

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-12-2013 15:13
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/12/2013 1:41 PM, Mario Igrec wrote:
>
> As I said, I have been criticized for it.

Welcome to the club.


> I would add McLube 444 to your list.

Fine, whatever.


> What makes WD-40 so unsuitable for metal parts in the piano? Does it
> migrate too much?

Unlike the rest of the tech community, I'm not concerned with it
migrating. It attracts dust, gets thick and gummy fairly quickly, and
people don't seem to know where to stop with it. We've all seen
instances where someone has hosed a piano down with the stuff and
destroyed it.

What metal parts on a piano need oiled? There seems to be a perceived,
or at least imagined need to lubricate things that don't really need it.
Metal on metal string bearing points don't really need oiled, and
neither do agraffes for installation. There's Protek for felt/metal, or
VJ, either of which are more benign than WD-40 and just as effective. I
haven't used it, but Ballistol is reported to be pretty good stuff. As a
light paraffin oil, it apparently doesn't get gummy or collect dust as
obnoxiously as WD-40. What's wrong with it? What does WD-40 do for you
that it won't do?


> Outside pianos, I've looked for alternatives to WD-40 for rust
> protection and light lubrication, but whatever I tried is either too
> slippery and transfers and can't be removed from hands and clothing
> easily, or doesn't lubricate well. Someone suggested LPS 1. Any
> suggestions?

I don't care about outside pianos. We're talking about inside pianos,
last time I managed to pay attention. What anyone uses outside pianos is
irrelevant.
Ron N

On 11/13/2013 9:14 AM, Mario Igrec wrote: > > I am not advocating WD-40. That's precisely what you're doing, and defending it. > I used to flush agraffe hole threads (in > the plate) with it because it was convenient and under pressure and I > didn't have to remove it. Used to? As in past tense? If you no longer do, why are you defending it? > Yes, it gets thick and is a dust/dirt magnet. But it also protects > metal from rusting in my garage. That's why I asked about > alternatives for non-piano uses. Which I answered. For non piano uses, I have no suggestions. I don't in any way condone it's use anywhere in pianos, however, handy or not. Ron N

> That's precisely what you're doing, and defending it.
Advocating, no; defending, yes because what I hear is that it will "damage the piano." That hasn't been my experience. Having said that, please nobody allow it to get anywhere near wood, and yes, it will gunk up and attract dust and dirt. It will also protect metal from corrosion, but there may be better alternatives.

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-13-2013 11:52
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/13/2013 9:14 AM, Mario Igrec wrote:
>
> I am not advocating WD-40.

That's precisely what you're doing, and defending it.


> I used to flush agraffe hole threads (in
> the plate) with it because it was convenient and under pressure and I
> didn't have to remove it.

Used to? As in past tense? If you no longer do, why are you defending it?


> Yes, it gets thick and is a dust/dirt magnet. But it also protects
> metal from rusting in my garage. That's why I asked about
> alternatives for non-piano uses.

Which I answered. For non piano uses, I have no suggestions. I don't in
any way condone it's use anywhere in pianos, however, handy or not.
Ron N

On 11/13/2013 11:01 AM, Alan McCoy wrote: > > Have you tried Tri-Flow? I like it for metal to metal (not my bicycle > though). Actually I like WD-40 too, but I don't use either for piano > work. I have, and use WD-40 for various things. A fine product for other than pianos. Ron N

In theory the best lubricant for the string to plate contact point would be graphite.  I have considered applying a thin DAG to bearing points before a pitch raise or on sticking strings, but the thought of the mess and risk of splashes and accidents is too great.  Molybdenum disulphide might also work, but again, probably too messy, unless applied to the bar before stringing.

I use CLP with a few drops of Marvel Mystery oil in the theory that the methyl salicylate might inhibit further rust.  It seems to help slightly with tuning, but a slight improvement is very hard to prove.

-------------------------------------------
Blaine Hebert
Duarte CA
626-795-5170
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-13-2013 12:14
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/13/2013 11:01 AM, Alan McCoy wrote:
>
> Have you tried Tri-Flow? I like it for metal to metal (not my bicycle
> though). Actually I like WD-40 too, but I don't use either for piano
> work.

I have, and use WD-40 for various things. A fine product for other than
pianos.
Ron N

On 11/14/2013 2:06 AM, Blaine Hebert wrote: > > I use CLP with a few drops of Marvel Mystery oil in the theory that > the methyl salicylate might inhibit further rust. It seems to help > slightly with tuning, but a slight improvement is very hard to > prove. My point exactly. It's faith based. The only clear improvement comes when you lubricate under string cloth to lessen drag. Lubing metallic bearing points is mostly unnecessary. Ron N

On 11/14/2013 9:25 AM, Mario Igrec wrote: > Advocating, no; defending, yes because what I hear is that it will > "damage the piano." That hasn't been my experience. Having said that, > please nobody allow it to get anywhere near wood, and yes, it will > gunk up and attract dust and dirt. It will also protect metal from > corrosion, but there may be better alternatives. Okay. A good illustration of the problem. I've never heard anyone say it will "damage the piano". They say it creeps, gums up, screws up wood, etc, and that there are better alternatives (already noted). Any number of details and caveats spoken on the use of WD-40 in pianos (or any other topic, in my experience) gets immediately reduced to a binary yes/no, good/bad, no matter what was actually said. As in, "damage the piano", where using it in agraffe installation, though unnecessary, is harmless if it's sensibly controlled. What is retained is, it's okay to use it in pianos. So and so said so. When, in fact, so and so extended all sorts of dire warnings and cautions, with specific conditions for the use mentioned. But that doesn't fit in the binary judgement plan, so everything but "it's okay" is stripped off and, hey, we can use it on everything! The ONLY safe approach is a general discouragement to using WD-40 in pianos in any manner whatsoever. It fits the binary assessment, and doesn't require the understanding of finer points, such as differentiating between metals, wood, felt, finish, or whatever. Also, there are better choices that have proven over time to be less potentially harmful in the hands of the binary assessment techs without fine point understanding (who are legion). It's like the global drive to eradicate smallpox. The only way to be rid of it is to make it extinct. I know, there are cans of WD-40 in the freezers of the CDC next to the smallpox, awaiting their chance to escape back into the wild, but we can at least make an attempt to minimize the damage by discouraging use of the product in pianos. I use the same criteria in determining my own usage of specific products. Instead of approaching it as, this should be okay if.. if.. if.., and/or if.., I start with down sides. If I can see no potential disasters, either in what I'm doing, or in what someone watching will hallucinate, I'm probably fine except that I can't possibly anticipate what the other guy will make of it, or anything else. It's about minimizing losses. Ron N

I agree with Ron. WD-40 should simply be discouraged/banned from piano work, as almost any use will cause more harm than good, or at least has that potential. I have had the joy of working on pianos where it was applied to actions, to "free them up." A gummy mess, where the only real solution is replacement of parts. I have one I continue to free up notes on every six months.

WD-40 has an interesting history. Water displacement is the key phrase. I guess you can apply it to a metal that is wet and it will get between the metal and the water. Its purpose was as an anticorrosive. It lubricates sort of OK, at least temporarily, then gums up. It was intended to provide a coating, so presumably the "gumming up" was intentional, like linseed oil. I knew someone from the military, in the physical logistics side of things, who told me the army had purchased drums of WD-40 to coat guns and whatnot to keep them from rusting. They found that when they actually wanted to use the equipment, it hadn't rusted but the WD-40 was so gummy it had to be painstakingly washed off. Not a good thing.

WD-40 seems to be made of "mineral oil" thinned with "mineral spirits" with a propellant added. Both the terms in parentheses are imprecise (petroleum products of a range of actual chemical content), and it is in the precise substances involved that the "secret formula" resides. In any case, I do have a can that I use occasionally for something, but there is almost always a better alternative. I don't think I have ever applied any to a piano (maybe once or twice to a squeaking pedal years ago, to provide full disclosure). I don't intend to start.

-------------------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
"When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2013 11:10
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/14/2013 9:25 AM, Mario Igrec wrote:

> Advocating, no; defending, yes because what I hear is that it will
> "damage the piano." That hasn't been my experience. Having said that,
> please nobody allow it to get anywhere near wood, and yes, it will
> gunk up and attract dust and dirt. It will also protect metal from
> corrosion, but there may be better alternatives.

Okay. A good illustration of the problem. I've never heard anyone say it
will "damage the piano". They say it creeps, gums up, screws up wood,
etc, and that there are better alternatives (already noted). Any number
of details and caveats spoken on the use of WD-40 in pianos (or any
other topic, in my experience) gets immediately reduced to a binary
yes/no, good/bad, no matter what was actually said. As in, "damage the
piano", where using it in agraffe installation, though unnecessary, is
harmless if it's sensibly controlled. What is retained is, it's okay to
use it in pianos. So and so said so. When, in fact, so and so extended
all sorts of dire warnings and cautions, with specific conditions for
the use mentioned. But that doesn't fit in the binary judgement plan, so
everything but "it's okay" is stripped off and, hey, we can use it on
everything! The ONLY safe approach is a general discouragement to using
WD-40 in pianos in any manner whatsoever. It fits the binary assessment,
and doesn't require the understanding of finer points, such as
differentiating between metals, wood, felt, finish, or whatever. Also,
there are better choices that have proven over time to be less
potentially harmful in the hands of the binary assessment techs without
fine point understanding (who are legion). It's like the global drive to
eradicate smallpox. The only way to be rid of it is to make it extinct.
I know, there are cans of WD-40 in the freezers of the CDC next to the
smallpox, awaiting their chance to escape back into the wild, but we can
at least make an attempt to minimize the damage by discouraging use of
the product in pianos. I use the same criteria in determining my own
usage of specific products. Instead of approaching it as, this should be
okay if.. if.. if.., and/or if.., I start with down sides. If I can see
no potential disasters, either in what I'm doing, or in what someone
watching will hallucinate, I'm probably fine except that I can't
possibly anticipate what the other guy will make of it, or anything
else. It's about minimizing losses.
Ron N

Valid concern for sure. The 10 Commandments approach tends to work well, except maybe in this case the commandment should be "oily lubricants nowhere where they can reach wood and felt" instead of "WD-40 nowhere near piano"? Because the binary technician could likewise pour CLP down tuning pins, smear tuning pins with Super Lube, dab Super Lube on key bushings, and spread teflon powder all over key tops (seen all of those). 

My perspective is, it's been a long day and they are out there looking around for the first thing to grab to solve the problem. The recommended solution is not available and past experience is used for guidance. If the tech is thinking, "WD-40 has always worked for me on metal, why wouldn't I use it on the plate," a "never ever on the piano" statement is less productive than "never if it can reach wood." If I need to unscrew an agraffe from a rusty plate or unfreeze a stuck caster, and the only thing in sight is WD-40, I'd rather know that a judicious application of it is OK, whereas if a plate screw is stuck, it is not.

-------------------------------------------
Mario Igrec
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2013 11:10
From: Ronald Nossaman
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

On 11/14/2013 9:25 AM, Mario Igrec wrote:

> Advocating, no; defending, yes because what I hear is that it will
> "damage the piano." That hasn't been my experience. Having said that,
> please nobody allow it to get anywhere near wood, and yes, it will
> gunk up and attract dust and dirt. It will also protect metal from
> corrosion, but there may be better alternatives.

Okay. A good illustration of the problem. I've never heard anyone say it
will "damage the piano". They say it creeps, gums up, screws up wood,
etc, and that there are better alternatives (already noted). Any number
of details and caveats spoken on the use of WD-40 in pianos (or any
other topic, in my experience) gets immediately reduced to a binary
yes/no, good/bad, no matter what was actually said. As in, "damage the
piano", where using it in agraffe installation, though unnecessary, is
harmless if it's sensibly controlled. What is retained is, it's okay to
use it in pianos. So and so said so. When, in fact, so and so extended
all sorts of dire warnings and cautions, with specific conditions for
the use mentioned. But that doesn't fit in the binary judgement plan, so
everything but "it's okay" is stripped off and, hey, we can use it on
everything! The ONLY safe approach is a general discouragement to using
WD-40 in pianos in any manner whatsoever. It fits the binary assessment,
and doesn't require the understanding of finer points, such as
differentiating between metals, wood, felt, finish, or whatever. Also,
there are better choices that have proven over time to be less
potentially harmful in the hands of the binary assessment techs without
fine point understanding (who are legion). It's like the global drive to
eradicate smallpox. The only way to be rid of it is to make it extinct.
I know, there are cans of WD-40 in the freezers of the CDC next to the
smallpox, awaiting their chance to escape back into the wild, but we can
at least make an attempt to minimize the damage by discouraging use of
the product in pianos. I use the same criteria in determining my own
usage of specific products. Instead of approaching it as, this should be
okay if.. if.. if.., and/or if.., I start with down sides. If I can see
no potential disasters, either in what I'm doing, or in what someone
watching will hallucinate, I'm probably fine except that I can't
possibly anticipate what the other guy will make of it, or anything
else. It's about minimizing losses.
Ron N

On 11/15/2013 11:42 AM, Mario Igrec wrote: > My perspective is, it's been a long day and they are out there > looking around for the first thing to grab to solve the problem. The > recommended solution is not available and past experience is used for > guidance. If the tech is thinking, "WD-40 has always worked for me on > metal, why wouldn't I use it on the plate," a "never ever on the > piano" statement is less productive than "never if it can reach > wood." If I need to unscrew an agraffe from a rusty plate or unfreeze > a stuck caster, and the only thing in sight is WD-40, I'd rather know > that a judicious application of it is OK, whereas if a plate screw is > stuck, it is not. You'll do what you'll do, regardless. At least consider the perspective of the customer who sees you pull out the WD-40 and use it on her piano. You've just issued carte blanche for it's indiscriminate use. Deaf ears, obviously. You're going to use the stuff on pianos no matter what, so I'll give up now and leave you to it. Ron N

I find a pipe cleaner to be a most effective way to apply CLP, or the lubricant of choice.  It carries very little of the lubricant, and can be applied very precisely without fear of stray "droppings".  Used Garfield center pin lubricant years ago, but I don't think it's made any more.  Protek CLP seems to be in common usage currently.  I too would avoid WD-40.

------------------------------
Timothy Edwards
Beckley WV
740-517-7636
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-07-2013 11:43
From: David Pritchard
Subject: Lubricating Strings at Bearing Points

Hello,

As I am reading "Pianos Inside Out", it talks about lubricating the strings at bearing points before tuning with Protek CLP or Prolube "unless the piano (or its strings) is less than a few years old or you live in a consistently dry climate".  See pages 113 and 114.  In 14 years as a piano tech, I have never lubricated string bearings, but I did live in western Nebraska, where it is perpetually dry with very low humidity.  Now that I have moved to Virginia where there is a lot more humidity, I have a few questions about this:

1.  Is this something that piano techs really consistently do?
2.  Do you do it every time you tune each piano?
3.  How would you lubricate the string bearings of the treble bridge in an upright behind the action?
4.  Any tips and tricks on how to do this quickly and effectively?

It seems like lubricating every bearing before a tuning would take a decent amount of time and effort, so I would love to see comments of what people think about this.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
David Pritchard
Forest VA
434-841-7735
-------------------------------------------