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plate refinishing

  • 1.  plate refinishing

    Posted 02-10-2014 22:27
    Having switched to waterborne lacquers/urethanes about 20 years ago for case parts, I have nevertheless not found a suitable substitute when rebronzing plates than suspending bronze powder in lacquer.  Given the advent of the insidious Polar Vortex, and the seemingly unending run of far-below normal temps (with no end in sight), I am looking for alternative ways for a professional level finish on a quarter grand Chickering plate.  I have waited long enough for more humane (normal) temps to arrive, but alas, it appears that it is merely a pipedream of mine.  I think hell just might freeze over before spring arrives, and I've got a piano to finish.

    Without going into the multitude of inherent problems (there are many!) associated with spraying lacquer in these conditions, I am wondering if any of you have experienced similar conditions and found an 'end-around' solution? If anyone has a 'rattle can' success story I'd love to hear it, but I am extremely leary of resorting to that method of delivery.

    Here is what I am considering:  after proper cleaning/preparing the plate  -  suspend the bronze power in dewaxed shellac and spray the plate to create the color by this vehicle.  Then, attach decals.  And then..... spray medium gloss water-based urethane.  I can easily make this regimen happen, but have never tried this on a plate before.

    Has anyone out there dealt with this situation successfuly?  Has anyone tried my considered approach? 

    Input greatly appreciated!

    Mark Potter   

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    Mark Potter
    Piano Technician
    Potter Piano Service
    West Jefferson OH
    614-879-5005
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  • 2.  RE:plate refinishing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 23:01



    This is a rattle can finish.  Wurdack Steinway Gold followed by their clear coat (semi gloss).  I prepped the plate with a soft wire brush followed by lacquer wash, sand to 220.  Fill nicks, chips and scratches with polyester fillers, sand to 220, spray primer coat of rattle can Bull's Eye Shellac, sand with 400 followed by 600 (use open coat paper, expensive but better).  Spray several light coats of Gold, carefully and lightly sand with 600, spray more light coats, sand with 600, spray final coats, spray with clear coat, lightly sand with 600, spray final sealer.  

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 3.  RE:plate refinishing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-10-2014 23:06
    That last line should read ...spray final clear coat.  I wrote sealer but it's the same clear coat that goes on at the end.  

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------








  • 4.  RE:plate refinishing

    Posted 02-11-2014 00:54
    David,

    Very nice description and picture of results. Tks for posting.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 5.  RE:plate refinishing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 06:08


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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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    This is what I have been using for a primer, at the urging of the paint guru at the local auto parts store.  SEM High Build Primer Surfacer. 

    http://www.semproducts.com/high-build-primer-surfacer/


    It is far and away the best thing I have used.  Even though I spray my top coats with a gun, I have been buying the 16 oz. rattle cans.  Joe Red Cloud has told me that it can be used as a primer under pretty much anything.  For anyone considering the use, spray a sample on a spray card and follow it with top coats of choice for compatibility before jumping off the cliff.  The auto touch up guys love it for spot repairs because it is so easy and quick to use.

    The advantages are there:  It builds rapidly and levels very nicely.  It sands out to a very level surface better than anything else I have used. 

    OR METAL & ALUMINUM:Clean surface thoroughly with 3837( ) SEM SOLVE. Apply per directions. Sand surface with 180-320 grit sandpaper and clean again with 3837( ).

    APPLICATION

    Coats: 2-3 medium wet coats

    Flash time: 5-10 minutes between coats

    Dry time: 1 hour

    Sand: 320-400 grit sandpaper


    After a good build, I chase the sanding with 600 grit, and it will be smooth as a baby's bottom.  Dry sanding, it does not clog your paper.  It is so easy to sand generally (far easier than the top coats that follow) that you should pay most of your money up front.  If you spend most of your time in prepping at this stage, you will have a beautifully level surface that will greatly reduce the amount of sanding required in the gold or clear coats and give you a better job while reducing your overall investment of time.

    It is a fairly common item, and likely available at auto paint stores near you. 

    I have a plate to spray in the next few days. I have been so pleased with the Mirka Abranet sanding screen that I plan on using it with this primer.  It levels so quickly, refuses to clog, and does such a nice job that I will be trying it on just about anything

    http://www.woodcraft.com/search2/search.aspx?query=mirka%20abranet

    Abrasives are incredibly good right now, and we should expose ourselves to new ones more often. 

    Will Truitt







  • 6.  RE:plate refinishing

    Posted 02-11-2014 18:13
    I want to thank everyone who weighed in with their responses/suggestions/new ideas. Lots of great suggestions, for sure!  A special shout-out to Jim I. for his introducing top-shelf materials that I was unaware of that are water-based and very forgiving of 'less-than-desirable' spraying conditions.

    FWIW, I have ordered 2 metallic powders (mica) from the blue pearl mettalic line that Jim I. provided links to.  I ordered their gold (#300) and bronze/copper (#500) powders, which I will mix to the color I desire, dispersed in my water-based finish of choice these past several years:  Enduro's Pre-Cat Urethane. 

    Will report my results sometime next week.

    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Potter
    Piano Technician
    Potter Piano Service
    West Jefferson OH
    614-879-5005
    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:plate refinishing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 19:19


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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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    I should have mentioned in my previous post that I have tried mixing metallic powders with waterbased lacquers and did not have success - the lacquer developed a greenish tinge.  I mixed it straight with the lacquer.  You are mixing it with shellac, and then clear coating with the clear waterbased lacquer.  Whether or not it will have the same reaction is anybody's guess.  I suggest that you spray a sample piece, taking it all the way through before you commit to the whole process for the plate.  That might save you some grief.

    Will Truitt





  • 8.  RE: plate refinishing

    Posted 23 days ago
    I realize that this topic is seven years old but I am approaching the point where I will be refinishing the plate of Chickering that I am rebuilding and I came upon this thread. I see that you had posted photos of a plate that you had redone with Wurdack Steinway Gold. It seems the photos are gone from the post. Would it be too much to ask for you to repost them? I actually live in the St. Louis area so if I like the way the product looks, I have easy access to it.


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    Daniel Brown
    piano tuner
    O'Fallon MO
    314-494-5926
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  • 9.  RE:plate refinishing

    Member
    Posted 02-10-2014 23:02
    Not the scenario you are considering. 

    However, regarding the water-based scenario you mention at the beginning, I am experimenting with pearlescent acrylics which derive their "mettalic" sheen using mica, not bronzing powers. These "mettalic" paints are used extensively by "faux" finishers.

    blue pearl metallic paint

    This to be undercoated with

    stix waterborne bonding primer

    top coated with waterborne acrylic of your choice.  I'm using it on my next quarter grand, but will not be spraying that until April or so.  

    Jim Ialeggio

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 10.  RE:plate refinishing

    Posted 02-11-2014 07:05
    Jim -
    the blue pearl metallic paint you refer to sounds great!  Have you seen any of the gold colors applied to anything large enough to get a sense of what color of gold you would be using on a plate?  From the small on-screen sample my first guess would be the bronzed gold.

    The primer looks like a good choice, too, and I am assuming you could tint it darker for use.  Don't think I'd wanna apply a white primer.

    Thanks for your input.
    Mark



    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Potter
    Piano Technician
    Potter Piano Service
    West Jefferson OH
    614-879-5005
    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:plate refinishing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 08:28


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    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
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    Don't count on the color that you see on the computer screen being close to what you think it is.  Not a dig on the Blue Pearl, it is just that computer screens can be notoriously bad at representing "true" colors.  The wet color of the sprayed material will not be the same as the dried finished product.  Bottom line is that you have to order what you think will be the color you see in your mind, spray a sample, and hope that the two are close. 

    For example, I ordered a "Goldmine Pearl" spray can paint from House of Kolor as a possible plate color.  It looked to be a subtle and gold on screen.  But the sprayed sample has more orange in it than the screen sample shows, and is too garish for my tastes.  It sits on the shelf unused. 

    Will Truitt







  • 12.  RE:plate refinishing

    Member
    Posted 02-11-2014 12:08
    Mark,

    I agree with Will regarding picky color difference on the screen. As well even an in-person chip color is very difficult to read in varying lights and varying sqft of coverage.  They have an actual color swatch of all the blue pearl paints you can purchase for $10 or so, an it is made using the actual paints, not a secondary printing process.

    Even so, if you are picky you have to learn to move the color yourself or with pigments...but only if you're are really picky. Moving the color is doable with these paints, because unlike bronzing powders in lacquer, these paints are pigmented in addition to the addition of the mica. This coloring technique is also used in Automotive style metallic paints, where the metal powders, or mica powders are suspended in a pigment base.

    SInce I don't aim to copy anything original mostly, I'm not aiming for the original gold paint colors (which I actually find to be pretty tacky). I favor a copper-ish hue, so I chase that.  

    Jim Ialeggio

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------











  • 13.  RE:plate refinishing

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-11-2014 00:48


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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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