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Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

  • 1.  Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-19-2021 19:40
    Hi all,

    I recently bought a 2005 GP-193 Boston piano. A couple weeks after it was delivered I had it tuned. Not long after, I found it to be badly out of tune again. I brought in another technician who tuned it beautifully. A week later it was again badly out of tune. I mentioned this to the last technician, Pete, and he graciously swung by to have a look. Turns out that a number of the tuning pegs are loose. He counted at least 20. I have a 10-year warranty on this piano, and the seller is proposing to come by and fix it with CA glue. I'm feeling pretty wary of this remedy. It's a fairly young piano. I feel like using shims or CA glue shouldn't be necessary. Pete, my technician, has expressed concern about the integrity of the pin block, but he didn't find any cracks or noticeable defects in the wood. There were some odd marks on the bottom of the block, but we're thinking they're from machining. Anyways, I would greatly appreciate your guidance in navigating this situation. Is there a reason that CA glue is a reasonable solution in this case? If yes, why? If no, what is the right solution? Thanks in advance!


    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 20:17
    Hi Joshua:
    Using shims is a possible cure, as is CA glue. Both have worked over long periods of time IF the pinblock is still viable and not split. Sometimes the pins can be driven further into the block by a mm or two, but not more. If the block is splitting, that will only widen the cracks in the pinblock. A 15 year old piano should not have splitting unless there are some abnormal conditions around the piano, like a very strong source of heat to dry out the pinblock. The Boston is a good quality piano, so it is certainly surprising that it has got some problems. Since this isn't a factory warranty, you'll have to either accept the repairs by the seller, or perhaps return the piano if that is an option. I would personally allow him/her to try a pin or two and see if the CA glue makes it tunable. It has worked in many cases for many years without failure in all areas of the country. Shims were the cure in the past before the use of CA glue, and I've used them before. They do work, except in cases of a very old piano with a failed pinblock.
    Ultimately you'll have to make your own decision whether to trust the seller or not. It's understandable that you are reluctant to accept a piano that is defective and won't hold a tune. But the proposed fixes are tried and proven within limits, and knowing that the piano and pinblock aren't terribly old, I wouldn't hesitate to allow the repair if otherwise you like the piano.
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    San Diego


    Joshua Fialkoff
    Hi all,

    I recently bought a 2005 GP-193 Boston piano. A couple weeks after it was delivered I had it tuned. Not long after, I found it to be badly out of tune again. I brought in another technician who tuned it beautifully. A week later it was again badly out of tune. I mentioned this to the last technician, Pete, and he graciously swung by to have a look. Turns out that a number of the tuning pegs are loose. He counted at least 20. I have a 10-year warranty on this piano, and the seller is proposing to come by and fix it with CA glue. I'm feeling pretty wary of this remedy. It's a fairly young piano. I feel like using shims or CA glue shouldn't be necessary. Pete, my technician, has expressed concern about the integrity of the pin block, but he didn't find any cracks or noticeable defects in the wood. There were some odd marks on the bottom of the block, but we're thinking they're from machining. Anyways, I would greatly appreciate your guidance in navigating this situation. Is there a reason that CA glue is a reasonable solution in this case? If yes, why? If no, what is the right solution? Thanks in advance!


    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY





  • 3.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 20:23
    If the tuning pin torque is very low, the seller should offer to take it back (refund!), or at the very least restring it with oversized tuning pins. I find Boston grands of that age are extremely reactive to changes in relative humidity (I.e., winter heating season). And some have very low torque, as your technician indicates. CA glue is an effective "in the field"repair, but not as a warranty response.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Member
    Posted 03-19-2021 20:39
    The best thing to do is test the looser tuning pins with a torque wrench to get inch lb readings and also record which notes they are. Are the loose pins close to each other or scattered throughout the piano ? On the top side of the piano how high are the tuning pins in relation to neighbors and are the coils on the tuning pins close to our touching the plate ? This would indicate they have been tapped in to tighten them . The little chips/splinters are from drilling the block. The pins look like they may have been tapped down but it could be the camera angle. You mentioned a 10 year warranty . Who is giving the warranty since it is a 16 year old piano and an original warranty is expired. CA glue works very effectively but it would not be the only option. Shims or a bigger tuning pin are probably a better option though it is more work. CA glue needs to be applied very carefully so as not to pool on the plate and discolor the guilding. CA is also the fastest fix.  I would try to determine why there are 20 loose pins- maybe the drill bit was dulled and the hole was overdrilled ? Its hard to see cracks between tuning pin holes in the block but a strong light an magnification can help. I suggest looking at the block using an inspection scope and taking pictures with an ipad with the camera facing up. The images can then be magnified and examined. In treating a pinblock with CA if the glue comes up in other holes there is a crack in the block. Someone tapping in tuning pins that does not support the pinblock properly can crack it.  One final thing- treating the block with CA is likely to void any warranty...

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-19-2021 20:50
    Part of me doubts this is due to loose tuning pins. Have the technician find one or two of the loosest. Bring them into unison on their note and then play the note loudly for an extended period of time. If they loose their unison then it's the pins. If they hold it's the piano reacting to temperature humidity changes.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-19-2021 21:20
    Thanks Larry. Shortly after tuning, the notes have lost their unison. We haven't done the test exactly as you specified. However, my technician could actually feel the tuning pegs move out of place after he set them. They are most certainly loose.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Member
    Posted 03-19-2021 21:39
    Please take some pictures from the top so we can look at pin height, coil clearance or any indicators. From your latest post it is a loose fit so a torque wrench will give you some hard measurements to work from. I tuned a C7 today and detected about half dozen looser tuning pins on bass strings. The strings held but pins definitely had low torque

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-20-2021 08:41
    Joshua, hello.  You have gotten a good summary here about your piano.  Let me do my own summary and probably add a couple of items.

    a) If you don't already have a humidity gauge, you need to get one.  Make sure of its accuracy rating.  You can get a good digital gauge that has a memory for less than 15 dollars.

    b) Two technicians tuned it and the piano sounded good.  I always immediately advise my customer if I think the tuning is in jeopardy due to tuning pins whose tightness if questionable.  I'm surprised, if I read it correctly, that your second tuner had to come back to tell you that.  Perhaps your home humidity fluctuates widely.  The tuning pins will get looser with a decrease in the humidity.

    c) Your next steps could depend  on the status of the pin block and the location of the loose pins, as you have heard.  My guess would be you have a concentration of loose pins in the central area and with the block still being structurally sound.  We could speculate on the cause of the looseness, as you have noticed in the comments. 

    d) My personal suggestion for a good quality fix is not shimming and not CA glue.  I suggest (under the warranty hopefully) re-pinning all, at least around the area with loose pins.  Unscrew the old pins by hand, screw the new pins in by hand -- no driving in of the new pins, regardless of whether you brace the underside of the block.  And be sure to only go up one pin size -- not more -- if presumably you have 2/0 now, only go to 3/0.

    Good luck.

    ------------------------------
    Norman Brickman
    Potomac Piano Service
    Potomac, Maryland
    potomacpiano@verizon.net
    https://potomacpiano.com
    (301) 983.9321
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-21-2021 20:20
    Thank you Norman. This was super helpful. I'm going to get the humidity gauge, as you suggested, and also have the tensions mapped.

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    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
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  • 10.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-29-2021 20:04
    Okay, low humidity may be a real issue. Currently, humidity in the room the piano is in fluctuates between around 30% and 40%. I gather this is too low. I put some humidifiers in the room. Gonna hold off on anything more until I have a stable 50%.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-21-2021 20:26
    Thanks James. Here you are. Honestly, everything looks really good.



    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-20-2021 06:28
    As Jim K. suggested, it is very difficult to say much here without data. For any chance to get any reasonable input from us, we absolutely need tuning pin torque data. A map of tuning pins and their torques. Your statement that "...my technician could actually feel the tuning pegs move out of place after he set them" is difficult to critically understand. Are you saying that after setting the pin as well as possible, the pin actually turned on its own - if so, one usually hears a "pop" and the pitch of the string drops significantly - is that what happened? If that is actually happening, I guess even I would have to admit that you probably don't need torque info - at least not on pins that are doing that.

    We really do need pin torque data though. If many other pins are tunable, but very low torque, and other pins are popping loose - you're really getting into the area where the only suitable remedy is pinblock replacement - considering the youth of an otherwise very nice piano.


    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-20-2021 09:21
    This is what I see here:

    1) The piano is used. We do not know what it was subjected to prior to this sale.

    2) The piano may be designed by SS but it is made by Kawai. Kawai has had some problems with pinblock longevity (i.e. chronic loose tuning pins). I have seen some of it and had to do warranty re-pinning work to fix (authorized by Kawai).

    3) The standard warranty remedy for this kind of thing is re-pinning with larger and/or longer pins. However, this is not a factory warranty situation.

    4) CA, PROPERLY APPLIED is a neat and effective remedy. It can be very long lasting. Usually not much needs to be applied. 

    5) However, with the above being said, the resale value MIGHT be negatively affected (with #4) due to anti-CA propaganda on internet forums.

    This is not a "cut and dried" situation and inappropriate for any of us to say absolutely how it should be handled. The owner and seller will need to come to an agreement con​sidering all the factors involved. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-20-2021 12:26

    So did I miss something ? Was this 2005  piano purchased  from a 'dealer' or a private party, I kind of assume the former as you say "I have a  10 year warranty on the piano"  but it's not clear,  you say  a CA glue  repair would void  the warranty but this is not a Kawai Corp. warranty which would have  expired in 2015 but rather a subsequent  extended warranty from the 'dealer/seller'. If it's 'his' warranty' then get it in a signed agreement  to approve the CA repair or a restring and if it's still a problem you can return the piano , my two cents is after 40 years as piano tech. but also piano store owner of restored  and used pianos is if you're not totally happy with the piano and/or not confident in future work  then suggest the 'dealer ' take it back and  identify a substitute  piano  for you in similar price point.   

    www.snowpianos.com​​​



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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
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  • 15.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-21-2021 20:31
    Thanks Martin. Someone else mentioned that the warranty would be voided. That is not a concern for me. The dealer provided the warranty, and is also the one suggesting the work.


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    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-27-2021 15:28
    I agree with Martin here . . . 

    I'd return this instrument to the dealer. For a 16 year old instrument to have such problems at this stage is bad news. It's a load of trouble. What's it going to be like in 30 years time? You want a 16 year old instrument to last you at least the next 50 years without trouble. 

    The likelihood is that it's been really dried out. I had an instrument like this that got dried out with central heating at a school and really it was never the same again and eventually went on a bonfire. It was a 1920s instrument admittedly - but my world is one in which a century is merely the blink of an eye and instruments are allowed the privilege of special care only approaching two. . . . Paying good money on an instrument that won't last a century isn't on. That instrument needs to go back . . . and have a new pin-block. I hate tuning oversize pins: they are an indication of a crass shortcut. In terms of a blink of an eye I'd expect a 16 year old instrument to be nearly what I'd expect out of a showroom new, but played-in nicely. 

    Apologies for having what might be seen as unreasonable expectations. Were it a 30 year old instrument I might be more forgiving.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 17.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-21-2021 20:27
    Thanks Terrence. I'm going to get the torque data and come back with that information.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-27-2021 11:54

    Hi , 2nd tech here
     a little clarification, none of the pins actually pull the tuning wrench to any significant degree. That being said there is no measurable resistance to lowering pitch when using the torque wrench. There are no pins that are significantly looser than the others. 

     The majority of the pins only take about 10ft/lbs to sharpen and as I said, unmeasurable when flattening. 

     just does not seem like a good situation for a less than 20 year old piano



    ------------------------------
    Peter OHearn
    Albany NY
    518-435-5488
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-27-2021 13:07
    I juat remembered something about this situation. When I was at the University of Alabama we bought 2 new Kawai grands. The first time I tuned one of them I found there were about a dozen pins that were very loose. I asked Don M. what to do and he sent me two dozen 3/0 pins. I repinned the ones that were loose and they felt fine. No more problem. 

    He didn't say why, and I don't know why, either, but apparently this happens on occasions. So I would suggest you have your piano tech replace the loose pins with 3/0 pins and let it go at that.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Member
    Posted 03-27-2021 13:23

     I am not sure a ft/lb torque wrench is the proper tool to use. I have an inch lb torque wrench that is very accurate . I typically measure all of the A's, C's, F,s and random other notes throughout the pinblock . if there are pins that stand out or in a cluster I measure and record the values. On rare occasions I take torque readings on every pin. I also examine the underside of grand pinblocks using an inspection scope and the camera on my ipad.

    What would explain loose pins on a 20 year old piano ? perhaps the wrong bit used at the factory; dull or overheated bits, double drilling , some problem with the environment or some problem in kiln drying ;drilling the block too soon

    3.0 may be the only way to go ....the idea of using CA on a newer piano- not so much. hold the dudes to the warranty or get a replacement piano.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2021 01:10

    I agree with Martin, David Pinnegar  and  James Kelly.  Presuming that the tuning pins are, in fact loose. the piano should be returned, but the situation gets more complicated on each reread:

    Joshua, you are a good singer and pianist, based upon your web presence.  Presumably you played and liked this instrument.  Wondering what you were coming from, previously, but:

    • Two tuners came to tune and left, without mentioning anything about loose pins. Why? Do either (or both) have any relationship with the dealer?
    • Did you hire someone (independent) to inspect the piano for you, before purchase?
    • Since you're familiar enough with the PTG to be communicating to this list, you should, try getting additional referrals in your area.  If you forego getting solid expertise to confirm your conditions, You will not be in a strong position to advocate .
    • Is the dealer a technician or do they have technicians on staff? Either way, they ought to have been aware of loose pins, or, for that matter,  any other structural problems.
    • As already suggested, a 10 year warrantee on a used piano of this sort is highly unusual. Further, it depends significantly on the terms.  What exactly does it say (assuming you have this in writing).


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-29-2021 20:00
    Thanks David. The last piano I had was a Yamaha U1. That thing lived in the basement and never went out of tune (to my ear). Answers to your questions inline below.

    • Two tuners came to tune and left, without mentioning anything about loose pins. Why? Do either (or both) have any relationship with the dealer? >> No, neither have a relationship with the dealer. My understanding is that the pins are tight enough such that it takes days/weeks to detune. I don't have a better response to your question.
    • Did you hire someone (independent) to inspect the piano for you, before purchase? >> I didn't. Normally, I would. In this case, because of the warranty, I felt comfortable based on my impression.
    • Since you're familiar enough with the PTG to be communicating to this list, you should, try getting additional referrals in your area.  If you forego getting solid expertise to confirm your conditions, You will not be in a strong position to advocate . >> Yes, I'm working on getting the data together. We're still working on pin tensions.
    • Is the dealer a technician or do they have technicians on staff? Either way, they ought to have been aware of loose pins, or, for that matter,  any other structural problems. >> Yes, the dealer is a technician with many years of experience and a number of great reviews. 
    • As already suggested, a 10 year warrantee on a used piano of this sort is highly unusual. Further, it depends significantly on the terms.  What exactly does it say (assuming you have this in writing). >> Here's what we agreed to: This purchase of a 2005 Boston GP-193 comes with a full 10-year warranty from the date of purchase. This warranty covers all major components including the sound board, pin block, bridges, tuning pins, strings and plate. The warranty does not cover cosmetic issues: blemishes, chips, fading. In the case an issue arises that is covered by the warranty, <dealer name removed> agrees to repair the issue at no cost to the owner such that the piano is returned to the condition it was in just prior to the issue arising, including repairing any physical damage that may have been caused to the frame or finish as a result of damage. If the cost of the repair is beyond the value of the piano, <dealer name removed> has the option of reimbursing the owner for the cost of the piano minus depreciation of 3% annually.


    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2021 10:00
    Just a thought FWIW,
    most Kawai and Yamaha pianos are made with a pin substantially smaller than 2/0. Using a standard 2/0 in these instruments has given me results on the high side of comfortable tuning pin torque even on a 50 year old instrument. Using 3/0 pins in these instruments is almost always a bad idea. A local dealer here in S Florida restrings nearly all their grey market Yamahas with 3/0 and they are almost impossible to tune even with a 15" Charles Faulk lever.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-28-2021 10:15
    I second this...I always repin a 1/0 pin with a 2/0 and no reaming.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-28-2021 12:04
    Karl, Jim
    That's good information, but, in this case, it doesn't seem that the customer should have to endure the process, not that her ought to have a high degree of confidence in dealer's product.

    Still would love chance to see that 10-year warranty.

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-29-2021 20:02
    Here's a copy of warranty: This purchase of a 2005 Boston GP-193 comes with a full 10-year warranty from the date of purchase. This warranty covers all major components including the sound board, pin block, bridges, tuning pins, strings and plate. The warranty does not cover cosmetic issues: blemishes, chips, fading. In the case an issue arises that is covered by the warranty, <dealer name removed> agrees to repair the issue at no cost to the owner such that the piano is returned to the condition it was in just prior to the issue arising, including repairing any physical damage that may have been caused to the frame or finish as a result of damage. If the cost of the repair is beyond the value of the piano, <dealer name removed> has the option of reimbursing the owner for the cost of the piano minus depreciation of 3% annually.

    ------------------------------
    Joshua Fialkoff
    Albany NY
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-30-2021 09:14
    Hi Joshua,

    Are you a piano technician?  

    Thanks

    ------------------------------
    Gregory Cheng, RPT
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 04-06-2021 02:30
    Forgive me but have you checked other beating points such as bridge pins and hitch pins that may give if cracked or not set properly?
    Cracks in the metal plate?




  • 29.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 04-06-2021 02:46
    * bearing points




  • 30.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Posted 03-29-2021 12:03
    I would have it re-pinned by a qualified technician if its under warranty. Sounds like they may have undersized pins (or oversized holes in the block).  While shimming or CA are great repairs that work, on a piano assuming to be in condition good enough for a 10 year warranty, it shouldn't need a repair but a permanent fix that will last 100 years.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Loose tuning pins on new-ish Boston grand

    Member
    Posted 03-29-2021 22:27
    You need to do the math and find out what the same year and model is going for retail. Your warranty states reimbursement for your cost minus 3% annual depreciation so the longer you keep the piano the less you will get however it does say annual so depreciation should be pro-rated. CA by the dealer is the cheap way out and if you agree they may say they have satisfied their obligation. I had a client here that wanted me to intercede with Petrof on a piano she had moved to a different house. It sounded totally different when it was put into her new home due to furniture , ceiling height, room placement. I explained to her it would need some voicing work and I lined up someone who was in expert in voicing Petrofs. She felt the "dealer" sold her a lemon , claimed it was a Petrof dealer etc. When I probed more closely I found out she bought it out of a barn in North Carolina where someone worked over pianos, put lipstick on them and pawned them off at low ball prices. I found out she also bought one for her daughter it was such a bargain... Her 30 day "warranty" had expired long ago but she ranted and raved and called Petrof wanting them to take it back.  So.... depending who your seller was the warranty may be next to worthless. Bottom line get them to take it back, get a refund and search anew

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------