Pianotech

Back to discussions
Expand all | Collapse all

Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

  • 1.  Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2021 13:39
    I have a friendly, musically well-credentialed client. After I tune their piano, they regularly note and request improvements as soon as I'm finished. In the past, I've responded to the customer's critiques by attempting to improve whatever notes the customer pointed out. I find that I also hear what the customer hears, but that the tight treble pins make it challenging to get the kind of dead-on unison clarity that the customer is listening for. Not only this; there are dissonant rear duplexes, other imperfections, an unusual tenor scaling compromise, and bichords with unmatched harmonics. The piano is a bit less-common and seems to be an attempt to manufacture a quality piano - but with some lack of complete engineering or design experience when compared to many modern pianos. That said, I'm obviously not an engineer / piano designer.

    I do happen to be the last in a lineup of piano technicians who've tuned for the client. The client has also occasionally complained about the cost of tunings and has some recommended regulation and hammer maintenance that they've deferred for a while. That said, even if I did everything possible to improve the piano, I think there might still be dissatisfaction. Now they've reached out for another tuning visit. Is it time to implement a change? I've worked myself a bit into a corner, and in spite of these challenges, I've gotten along okay with the client, who is also differently-abled (has an impairment). In this case I'm somewhat sensitive to the extent that the customer relies on having a technician they trust and are satisfied with, even in a more difficult arrangement. The customer might suffer more than I, if I do anything to alter the arrangement as it stands; you see, nothing else has quite worked for them so far. A series of rather disappointing experiences in the pursuit of a degree of perfection, after buying an expensive-enough piano.

    ------------------------------
    Tom Wright, RPT
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2021 14:39

    Tom

    When I was in St. Louis I had a Rusian piano teacher who, when I got done tuning her piano, would pluck each string on a note and tell me the right one, or the left one, is out of tune. She wouldn't listen to all three strings and point out a bad unison, but pluck each string and say the right string is flat, or sharp, etc. She did that on all the notes from G4 to the top, and I would have to "correct" at least half the notes. 

    I tuned for her three of four times and I would spend an extra hour working like mad to change the pitch ever so slightly trying to satidfy her. Even when I had not changed the pitch, she said it sounded better.  Then during my 5th tuning I thought I would see how accurate her hearing really was.  I purposely left the right string on three different note slightly sharp. When she got to those notes, she didn't say anything and just went on to the next note. That told me she really couldn't hear when a string was flat or sharp.  She just wanted to "prove" to me that her hearing was better than mine.  I then told her that in future I would charge her twice as much for the tuning to have her do the plucking thing. She never called me back.

    Which is my advice to you. Some people are a pain in the ass. They have a need to try to prove to you, or anyone, that they are better at whatever. This person will never be satisfied with any tuner. It's not your fault, so don't make it your problem. Tell him/her that you will charge extra for additional tunings. Chances are (s)he will call someone else. good riddance. 



    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-21-2021 15:06
    This is a case where tuning with a good machine solves all issues about human opinions of pitch

    The TLA CTS5 has a phase display with dots which give an idea of the measure of movement.

    I was tuning a Steinway C today for a celebrity pianist for a recording on Monday, and the machine probably has a problem with poor battery contacts being quite old. For this reason I was battling with "BATT DEAD" mode. However, it came to life enough. In desperation I went into aural mode. I don't normally tune aurally and am not practiced but know what I'm listening for. The machine came back to life and I checked what I'd done and some was OK. I'd tuned unisons as I normally would and I also tried Mark Cerisano's double string method. I find simply that the CTS5 is _so_ accurate and the display so intuitive that I can often tune unisons more accurately, each string at a time, more accurately than standard methods by ear.

    Last week another Steinway C https://youtu.be/4dCQyD57e9M seemed very friendly to my ear and I did a lot by ear rather than machine, but not the one today.

    The bottom line is that if one does an instrument by machine, and if that machine will tune accurately the unisons, then a client looking over your shoulder simply cannot claim authority of better ears.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-21-2021 17:00
    Fire him...its simply not worth the agita. 

    We Piano techs live in a land of OCD...we have it by job description, and many of our customers have it. We mainly are hired to out OCD our customers. However, some folks simply can't be out-OCD'd. If the OCD is flying that high, cut them loose, they will just make you unhappy, and you will lose money every time you see them. Saying no is an important skill to learn...one we all struggle with I think.  I know I do, but, still, its an important skill to work on.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-21-2021 18:13
    Another technique would be to make sure you bill for every second of time. I also have trouble on this one, when trying to solve a thorny problem on-site...but its the only way to avoid feeling like you are being either trifled with, or manipulated. As I say, I do have problem doing what I am suggesting here.

    ...on the other hand, posting to the forum is a kind of way of me posting a message to my own mind. While I'm not looking, the information sometimes makes it past my ego into some place where I can actually access the advice and act on it...I'll let you know how it goes, as I had one of these frustrating calls today.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2021 18:23

    I put up with someone very OCD, also very poor, for many years. The piano, a very old Steinway upright, had various issues. Over time I gradually replaced parts, bushed keys, even eventually replaced the hammers, the damper felt, and the bench, all for rock-bottom prices.?? I think you can view this in two ways: either it's a total waste of time and money and patience, or perhaps it is an expression of my power to improve life for one very challenged person. I just kept on doing work and fielding strange requests and dubious complaints ("this note makes a click, you hear it?" when he was curling his long finger around enough that the nail was clicking on the ivory). He's retired now, calls me once in a blue moon, but I'll still go if he phones.

    If you can hear what your friendly but picky and impaired customer complains about, it isn't total invention like Wim's Russian customer. It may be pressing or exceeding the limits of what the instrument can do. You might, after struggling with a very high unison for a certain amount of time with this customer watching, try telling him that you can still hear what he's pointing out, but it's the best you can do. This might lead to the "helpful" suggestion that perhaps someone else might do it better, with a short list of good or pretty good other tuners to try. And the addition at the end: "if you give someone else a try, and you're unhappy, I'm willing to come back." Being exposed to work which is worse than your work, and probably less patiently attempted, might lead him to appreciate you more and demand a little bit less.




    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2021 11:31
    Sell him a tuning lever, mutes, a book, and a 15 minute lesson. I used to pull stunts like this with my mom's piano tuner. For some reason I didn't like the beating of a particular M10. It sounded bad in a song I was learning or something. After I complained about it for a couple of appointments, having him adjust this and that, my mom paid him to buy me a Hale extension lever, mutes, and a copy of Reblitz. He gave me a quick lesson and set me loose. And here I am 20 years later. Thank you @Donald Findlay. ​​​​​​

    ------------------------------
    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-23-2021 12:01
    Great story! I have a similar one, sort of. I was in elementary school home sick by myself. Piano tuner came that day and didn’t know anyone else was there. I listened. I didn’t like what I heard. Seed was planted; I just “knew” I could do better.

    Sent from my iPhone


    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2021 19:22
    Hi Tom:
    I've not had exactly the same experience, but it reminded me of someone who had a hearing problem. Apparently he wasn't aware of it. Sometimes, in older aged people, the ears hear sound and pitch differently. An in-tune piano sounds "off". No matter how precisely you tune the piano, they hear it as sour and discordant. I had one of those people once, and almost got into some heated argument. I should have got the hint when he said he had 4 or 5 other tuners come, and none could do a good job. I made sure not to disparage the other tuners, and told him that you can't guarantee any tuning because the environment around the piano can't be guaranteed stable. A couple days after I had tuned it, he called me to say what a bad job I had done, and would I come back. I reluctantly agreed, and used my Accutuner to dial in every string. He still didn't like it, and argued that I should give back his money. I told him no, and he followed me out to my car, very close. I didn't know what he might do, but I stood my ground and said right to his face, "Don't make me do something I might regret". He was a Vietnam vet. I should have known better, since he owned several guns and was a gunner. Somehow I made it outta there alive.
    Another tech went out there a week later, and said the tuning was fine. And of course he got paid too. Go figger.
    I don't always do dumb things, but when I do..

    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2021 21:04
    David --

    > This is a case where tuning with a good machine solves all issues about human opinions of pitch

    Wrong!


    Paul --

    One of the members of my local PTG chapter set up a meeting at House Ear Clinic here in LA for a presentation on hearing protection. We learned about many of the weird things our ears are capable of. For example, we learned that the ear is capable of re-employing adjacent ear cilia to cover for problems in damaged neighbor cilia. Briefly, this means that if you have damaged ear cilia that normally would be responding to frequencies around, say, 440, but they're not working, nearby cilia will take over. The nearby cilia, while detecting the frequencies that the damaged cilia can no longer detect, unfortunately, don't send those original frequencies to the brain. Normally, a 440 Hz cilia would send a 440 Hz signal to the brain. But a 441 Hz cilia, taking over for a damaged 440 Hz cilia, would nevertheless send a 441 Hz signal to the brain. As it was explained to us, survival depends on us being able to hear sound only as close as it is necessary for us to avoid danger. 

    I had a customer once who admitted that he had left over war hearing damage. He had been unhappy with a whole string of tuners not being able to hear this one note that would never come into tune. To him it was always flat. I had the same problem when he brought me in for a tuning. After trying to nudge the note sharp as far as I felt comfortable with leaving the piano "in tune" enough so that someone else might not complain, he still complained. What I wound up doing was isolating one string of that note and, while he was sitting there, started bringing it up sharper and sharper waiting for him to tell me when it was finally correct. As I approached what I was fearing might be the breaking point of the string, and him still claiming the note was flat, I stopped. I put the note back where it was supposed to be and suggested, as nicely as I could, that he see an ear doctor and have his hearing checked. His son, who was right there all the time, understood what was going on but the customer just could not accept that his hearing was bad. He paid me but I have never seen him again. And I'm happy about that.


    Thomas --

    None of what your customer is complaining about is your problem. Your job is to have acceptable social skills, do the best job you are capable of, charge what you have determined is a fair price for your services, and unless you really, really like this customer, not get involved with their social, hearing or brain problems. If you can't please this customer you should not feel even a little bit guilty about not investing any more of your time on them. 

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-23-2021 12:31
    All good anecdotes but if a client sees you having tuned to a scientifically checked frequency, it must be right. Of course. ;-)

    :-)

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-21-2021 20:32
    When did we take the oath to work on every piano that comes our way? We need to be more selective in our own selection of clients. Just as the piano owner chooses a tuner/tech, we must choose our customers. I am very selective.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-21-2021 21:15
    There is also the personality trait that simply is NEVER satisfied no matter what. And, some of these have learned that they can turn this to their economic advantage...they always find something to complain about (even the tiniest little thing) with the intent of trying to get a discount, refund, or some other concession from whoever they are doing business with. It ultimately becomes a game with them, one they feel they must always win. I've experienced it. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-22-2021 05:35
    Thomas - you mention poorly-matched wound strings and treble complaints. It is extremely rare (as in just about NEVER!) that I have serviced a piano that did not have some poorly-matched bass strings and false beats in the treble. Once in a while, you can tune out a false beat, but rarely. These are problems/imperfections with the piano - not your tuning. All you can do is point them out, and if the client cannot comprehend that, then just avoid the client in the future.

    I had an elderly lady that I tuned her Betsy Ross spinet. She called me back to retune a couple notes, which I did and she was happy. She called me a week later with more tuning-related complaints. Her piano was on her back porch right next to the driveway. I arrived at her house on my motorcycle which at the time had open pipes - it was not super-sound, but fairly loud. I pulled up next to her porch where the piano was and saw her playing the piano. I sat there for a few minutes and she didn't look at me. I revved up my little motor and she never missed a beat with her playing. I swear, the lady was stone deaf.

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2021 10:08
    Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it. No-one recommended catering to clients dictating tuning alterations. I tend to agree.

    ------------------------------
    Tom Wright, RPT
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-25-2021 21:09
    Firing a client does not have to be a nasty encounter. Instead, you could "flatter" them off of your client list:

    "Mrs Jones, as nice as your piano is, it is severely limiting your playing and your perception of tone. Someone like you should be playing a Steingraeber or a Fazioli... And of course such an instrument requires a factory-trained technician to service it at regular intervals..."

    Good Bye!

    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-25-2021 21:38

    Brilliant!

    But are you going to get on a factory-trained technician's hate list?




    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2021 00:32
    No one said refer them to your least favorite local tech either. But it's not a bad idea.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-26-2021 02:00

    David, the least favorite customer and the least favorite local tech could get their own back by liking each other.




    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-27-2021 00:56
    Then everyone's happy. Problem solved.

    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Posted 05-27-2021 18:21
    So today, I go on site to reinstall repinned WNG shanks, in a Chinese piano I had done a fair amount of work to. It is a nice sounding and playing entry level 6 ft grand.

    The whole episode was to address noises in the action that were driving the customer nuts. Installed the stack, re- regulated, just needed tweaks to everything else after the dropped shanks were addressed. I'm paranoid about the noise at this point, and figured I'd missed something in the rebuild 2.5 years ago. So though I hear action noise, normal action noise, I'm not sure what he's going to call out, if anything. I call him in to play. He says I fixed it...good. He starts playing, and finds a tenor note and says, it sounds like the key is "hitting paper". This is a rather reverberant room, so its loud in there when he plays. So I think to myself , "he can hear wood hitting paper amidst this level of sound"?  I look under the front of the key, and indeed see I left a green punching on top of the felt, which I often do when regulating...I usually come back later and put them all under the felt..but I missed this one. I ask him to play. He says "that fixed it".  

    I back up a little, and then say to him, in these exact words..."Then you're F..ked. Your hearing is so acute, any piano will drive you bananas...we don't have a prayer, unless you realize how acute your hearing is, and allow yourself to hear some trash".  He took it well, and related it to his wife, as a new realization he had not yet considered, having very acute hearing. Then I said "I can fix any noise, it just will depend on how much you are willing to pay me".  He thought about it. Then he picked out a damper that was admittedly damping a tiny bit slow, but only if you wail on the key. I said again, I will go over all the dampers, "but you have to be willing to pay for the time, and dampers take serious time to deal with gremlins".  He thought about it.

    Then...with all these noises some people are hearing and others not, I myself, hear a weird beating happening on every note, especially in the alto capo...but everywhere else. It doesn't  bug him, so I don't mention it. I think to myself, "now, what the f..k is this".  It wasn't falseness. It was an even 6 or 7 beats/second, on all the notes. I start messing with string braid...nope. I know it didn't make this sound in the shop, and I know its not falseness. Then I look up and see the ceiling fan turning silently and slowly. I turn off the fan, wait for it to stop. The beating "magically" stops.  

    Once one starts looking for noises, they will magically appear.  I will try and fix whatever noise he hears, but I told him my hourly rates, and I will only do it on a straight hourly basis.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Member
    Posted 05-27-2021 19:46
    Ha Ha reminds me of the time when a customer told me her piano was buzzing in the top bass and low tenor. I looked all over the place for something on the soundboard, things on the wall. At first I did not even hear it but by concentrating I narrowed it down to something in the hammer flange area. I slide the action out and lo an behold all of the hammer flanges had travel paper hanging out. I ripped them all off- no more buzz. Evidently the frequencies where exciting the paper like when you put a blade of grass between cupped hands and blow on it. Some individuals ears are so acute to sounds it has to be a nightmare. While I am at it please explain how a cat can hear you open a can of cat food when they are on the other side of the house ?

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Customer gets tuning tweaks on tricky piano. Advice?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-28-2021 03:24
    Sometimes it depends on what we're listening for, too. I had a customer who was complaining of a metallic "ting" kind of sound on one or two specific notes near the middle if the keyboard. I couldn't hear it. The son was the player and he played this one passage over and over and while they could sort of hear it I could not. Ok, so mom then pulls out her cellphone and plays back a recording she had made of it just the day before. There it was. Loud and clear. But it was nothing like what they were describing, and it was nothing that I was therefore listening for. But there it was plain and clear. I knew instantly what it was and it took only a minute or so to fix. But I was amazed at the realization that the reason I could not hear it was because I was listening for the wrong thing.

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message