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Voicing with Lanolin?

  • 1.  Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 12:59
    Does anyone have any experience with this, possibly thinned to a liquid. I'm guessing that lanolin contribution wouldn't be so much lubricating the sliding contact between adjacent fibers during an elastic deformation, but more just as a matter of increasing the suppleness of individual fibers (read, increasing the springiness of fibers). Apparently the only thing that lanolin gives sheep is waterproofing their coats.

    Yes, Abel's "Natural Felt" hammers are a welcome choice, as the chemicals and processes used to wash out extraneous organic matter actually damage/degrade the springiness of fibers. But in this case, would the damage done by harsh treatment be reparable by a dose of lanolin.

    TIA

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 13:59
    Hi Bill,
    I think Fred Sturm had written on lanolin and voicing. Try the search function?

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 16:56
    VS-PROFELT in small quantities dies a reasonably good job of that. YMMV.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 20:14
    Do we have to wait longer than an hour to hear what we get?

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 20:13
    Found a bunch of 'em: https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=49&MID=664957&CommunityKey=76c8d8e5-6fa1-4522-9fa9-006ff252729b&tab=digestviewer

    CU Sunday

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 22:11
    Just a thought: Check me on this & let me know if I'm wrong. It's my understanding that naturally occurring lanolin in wool is what moth larvae eat. The higher quality the wool for pianos, the lower the lanolin content & the less likely you are to have nasties eating it. I have no idea how much lanolin would be needed to attract nasties that otherwise wouldn't be attracted to it, but it occurred to me that adding too much of it might be a bad idea if one is in an area prone to moth infestations.

    It is also my understanding that some wool processors are not taking out as much lanolin as they used to in order to save money. So, I expect we will all have an influx in moth damage in 10-20 years.

    *shrug*

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2021 23:33

    Maggie, I hadn't known that, but Dr. Google sent me to an article about keeping wool free of moths, and they definitely do like lanolin.

    https://www.hyerwools.com/single-post/2016/07/11/protecting-wool-from-moths

    This reinforces my dislike of mixing *stuff* in with wool, whether in hammers or bushings. Sprayed lubricants, fabric softener, etc. I like using vodka for various chores, and, with a lot of care and moderation, for voicing high treble hammers, simply because it all evaporates, leaving nothing behind.






  • 8.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 08:11
    Thanks, Maggie

    Your point about lanolin being the "secret sauce" that attracts moths is well-taken.

    You went:
    "It is also my understanding that some wool processors are not taking out as much lanolin as they used to in order to save money. So, I expect we will all have an influx in moth damage in 10-20 years."

    We are now 11 years into that prediction:
    "On Jul 31, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Fred Sturm wrote:

    My thinking is that it is a question of friction, that there is too
    much friction between the wool fibers and the needles. It's not a new observation - 30 years ago I was told voicers commonly wiped their needles through their hair every few insertions (in the says of
    "greasy kid's stuff"), to make it easier to insert them. But some
    hammers are quite slick for voicing when brand new, like the Abel
    Naturals. Even though they are relatively dense. We are told that the
    felt for these hammers is washed and processed with less harsh
    solutions, and maybe some lanolin is added back in (I seem to remember
    hearing that from Wally or Helmut).

    The lanolin solution had no obvious effect on the tone quality by itself -
    or none that I particularly noticed. If there was a change, it was an
    improvement (it didn't seem to need voicing as badly as I thought it
    did Monday, but my ears and perception can easily change that much
    from day to day).

    From Paul T Williams <pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu>
    This is why I love the Abel Naturals from Wally! They refrain from
    washing them so much that the lanolin disappears. It really makes for a
    wonderful hammer with lots of give, yet the power we need. The lanolin is
    why they're not bright white."

    The above from https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=1171&MID=317572&CommunityKey=e2c6a925-0387-4a43-8920-02dd4c8d591a&tab=digestviewer#bm14



    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 08:27
    At this point, I'm ready to conclude that while lanolin has no direct effect on tone (the way gluing fibers together with lacquer, steaming the felt, or alcohol/Downy (or alcohol/water) do). However, when the required needling is difficult because of the "dryness" (my term) of the fibers, lanolin lubricates the needles AND the fibers, allowing the required needling. I include the fibers themselves in this lubrication, because (In Fred Sturm's observations), the needles' holes remain with the dry felt, and disappear with the lanolin.

    Of course, I'd pass on the gumminess of lanolin during subsequent filing, for some VS ProFelt, which apparently does have a softening effect on tone. The only question is how quickly do we get to hear what we're going to get.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 09:07
    Bill - Thanks for taking the time to share that. It makes me sad that we might have to choose between more moth proof & tone, but I'd bet that is true. Just part of the business, I suppose. In my area, it's not the hammers but the felt punchings that are quickly devoured. Annoying, but at least it's an easy (although time consuming) repair. I've gotten fairly quick with it from so much practice. 😉 

    Susan - interesting article. I may try cedar or lavender again. I've had luck with cayenne pepper. Mice hate the stuff. I suspect moths don't either, but don't have evidence...yet. 😉

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 09:47
    Hi Maggie,

    you went:
    It makes me sad that we might have to choose between more moth proof & tone, but I'd bet that is true.

    I don't think it's true for the following reason. We are 11 years into your prediction. If it really were a moth magnet, we'd have heard of this in the first year or two. They wouldn't only be picking up the scent of lanolin, starting at the 12th year in.

    I think we can all sleep soundly <G>.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 11:59

    Hi, Maggie

    Ted Sambell used to say that cleanliness was the best defense -- take out the keys and vacuum the punchings and the area around them.

    They have a nasty habit of eating up the hair on cello bows, but only if they are in soft cases. So I drove a few nails in the wall next to the piano, and I hang the cello bows there. They don't seem able to get into the hard case, and they don't attack horsehair which is out in public, so to speak.

    Ted used to quote someone (grinning): "The only way to kill a moth with a mothball is by a direct hit." Only apparently, you can poison the little creeps (and yourself) with them.






  • 13.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 14:28
    Bill - I hope you are right. My information came from Jergen Goering who told me it was a brand new thing in hammer production. Either I misunderstood him or it is getting worse and we don't know yet. However...

    Susan et al: Although I deal with this problem a great deal, it is on pianos that haven't been tuned in 10-30 years. I think it may be irrelevant in my case whether there is a high level of lanolin or not. LOL!

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 14:40
    Bill,

    Yes, it's unfortunately true that one must wait longer than one wants to, to hear the effect of VS-PROFELT. However, the ALL/VODKA 2:1 sauce does become evident very quickly. 

    Try this: take an old dead hammer (e.g. a bass hammer still with felt on it) you have removed for replacement and shape it up as you normally would to its nice round (egg) shape. Now slice it straight down the middle as you would a new one to demonstrate the tension/compressionin a new hammer. 

    Now, apply justva few drops of VS-PROFELT to each side of the sliced felt near the strike. Watch what happens (if anything) and report what you see. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 18:08
    You went:
    Watch what happens (if anything) and report what you see.

    Within minutes, what was a straight line across the crown at the cut curved into a circumference, the middle of that cut being the highest, with not much change at the edges. The VS Felt certainly does swell felt up.

    ALL/VODKA 2:1 sauce

    Maybe "ALC/VODKA"? Sound roughly the same as EverClear, although it's 151 proof instead of the normal 80 proof for vodka.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 09:03
    Bill,

    Yes, when I did it the felt formed the same V shape that a brand new hammer does when you cut it. I find that the VS-PROFELT works best when applied incrementally in small quantities. That way I can gradually hear what its doing and respond accordingly. On EXTREMELY hard hammers I will go a bit more liberally, but still not try to fix in one session (DAMHIKTLTOI).

    ALL/EVERCLEAR 190...2:1 is now my goto solution for quick action though. It works amazingly well and I have had numerous positive comments about the improvements by owners. I carry it in a spent Cory Key Cleaner pump bottle. Atomizer works great and is very controllable (using my hand as a shield to avoid getting it anywhere other than where I want it). 

    Both of these solutions also work well on the low shoulders to improve sustain, as well as Pianotek's hammer softener. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 16:16

    I like using a small dropper bottle, kept in a ziploc bag.

    I prefer 190 proof ethanol cut half and half with water because I know exactly what is in it, and it will do its job and then leave. Also very nontoxic to be around. And no (constantly appearing joke), I never drink the piano "vodka".

    That said, if you use too much on a hammer, that hammer is finished and can never be revived. A similar problem with steam led Yamaha to void warranties on steamed hammers. At least with "vodka" you don't need to bring a lot of gear, you can control it better, and it won't burn you.






  • 18.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 19:16
    Susan,

    Sounds like the same thing that happens to a person who consumes too much...

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 14:07
    Another way to apply could be a brush (something like a nail polish brush/bottle.)
    The solution can be laid in just the string groove, if desired. I have had an experience of single drops of vodka (40%abv) be a little too much. That is a bit more water (60%) than the Everclear cut in half (~52.5% water,) but I would err on higher alcohol and less water, and do subsequent treatments if needed.

    I haven’t tried such a mixture on the low shoulders but I am encouraged by Peter’s use for improving sustain.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 20.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 16:00

    Joe, it seems to me that the issue with the low shoulders is how the hammers were set up to begin with.

    Yes, more alcohol and less water might mean that one drop would have less effect, which can be desirable.







  • 21.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 16:32
    Joe,

    FYI, I do not take credit for any applications of this stuff. Everything I now know I have learned from others. What I can definitely attest to (much to my amazement) is that a little squirt of this stuff (All/Alcohol or Ptek softener) at or above the staple produces an immediate effect on sustain (how much depends on various factors in the hammer I guess). Try it. Play around with it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-01-2021 13:35
    Peter,
    It took me a a few times seeing your posting of All/Alcohol to figure out that you were referring to the brand name All fabric softener plus alcohol. I misinterpreted the All as some chemical abbreviation that I was unfamiliar with.
    What is the ratio of All/Alcohol you use? Which alcohol, %?
    I have used Downey/Alcohol similarly with positive results. I imagine the softeners are similar composition?
    I used 1:7 with 70% isopropyl alcohol.

    Have you applied this to over-lacquered hammers, or mainly to high density felt?

    Joe




  • 23.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 15:03

    It probably is worse in a piano if the house in general supports moths elsewhere.







  • 24.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2021 17:00
    You went:
    " Bill - I hope you are right. My information came from Jergen Goering who told me it was a brand new thing in hammer production. Either I misunderstood him or it is getting worse and we don't know yet. However..."


    It would be beneficial for the quality of these discussions, to have him go on record with this remark. I like to chase things down which "sound too good (here, fantastic) to be true". Maybe he won't want to because the observation was made to him by someone else in confidence. But until it's attributed, it's hear-say. Sorry to be such a hard-xxx, but if anyone is going to repeat this remark, it should be vetted.

    Could you check this out? Thanks in advance…

    P.S. Speaking of which, the hammers of concern are Renner Blue Points. The "point" of course  is an imitation of Steinway's diamond shape, except that, instead of instead of creating the diamond shape by skiving the hammer felt before it goes into the cauls (as Steinway does), Renner simply takes their normal round-shape skiving and presses the round shape flat with extra pressure in the cauls. Making for unbelievably dense shoulders. This, from their (correction: p.2 of the RBP Voicing Protocol), and they're proud of it. (…How's that for industry gossip <G>)
    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 00:44
    Maggie,

    This is something I have been regularly mentioning (to anyone who will listen).  The wool felt industry might have forgotten that "moth-proofing" was done by simply removing the lanolin that is required for moths to complete growth.

    Carpet beetles (also known as bowhair bugs) do not need as much lanolin and can happily eat lanolin-free felt.

    California has been fairly moth free (but lots of carpet beetles), but we have begun to have clothes moths appearing here too.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 08:25
    Blaine - Ooohhh...I made the assumption that carpet beetles would be the same as moths, AND I was forgetting that I deal more with carpet beetles than moths. 

    That is very good to know about carpet beetles. Thanks!

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 20:31
    That reminded me to feed my carpet beetle colony!

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 20:34
    Blaine! 😂🤣😂🤣😜🪲

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 21:29
    I wanted to test them on lanolin vs non-lanolin felts:

    Carpet beetle larvae feeding on fish food and dried meal worms.


    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2021 23:51

    If you put your carpet beetle colony in a deep freeze for ten days, then take them back out for a few, then put them back in for another ten days, you won't need to feed them anymore.






  • 31.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 03:06
    Yea, but then I couldn't test the efectiveness of different treatments on felts.

    Do you have any idea how hard it is to collect this many carpet beetles from pianos?

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 09:27
    Susan & Blaine: HAHAHAHA! 😂🤣😂🤣

    To all the others: sorry to clutter the thread, but...it's worth it.  😂😜🙃

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: Voicing with Lanolin?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-29-2021 15:58

    We had a bunch of them in Stockton. Getting more of them never struck me as being a problem.