Pianotech

  • 1.  Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Member
    Posted 06-29-2020 11:01
    Hello Friends,

    Due to my lack of experience with this issue, I am not sure what to do with a key height that is under spec on my 1920's Steinway O. I am wondering if I should increase the key height or leave it where it is. I own this piano, so I can fuss as much as I want with it. Right now the key height on Notes 1 & 88, measuring from the keybed (not the key slip ledge), is 2-15/32". This is below the printed Steinway spec, which is 2-5/8", or 2-20/32", so my key height is low by 5/32, which is an 1/8" plus 1/32". My understanding is that the Steinway spec is measured from the underside of the key top, down to the key bed.

    The space availabe from the top of the key to the bottom of the open fallboard is 7/64", a little less than 1/8". 

    My questions are: Should I raise the key height? How much room do I have to raise the key height, if any, given the 7/64" space I have at the fallboard? And, will raising the key height about 1/32" or 3/64" make any different in regulation and performance of the piano?

    What is your general opinion on key height to regulation, performance and tone? Do small differences in key height even matter? And is my example of off-spec key height typical of Steinway grands?

    Thanks for your advice!


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    Joe Burros
    Cell: 646-410-7174
    jbcello@gmail.com
    www.fmi-newengland.com
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  • 2.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2020 11:27
    My first question is how much space between the key top and the key cover when opened?

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 3.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Member
    Posted 06-29-2020 12:19
    Hi Larry,
    I put that information in with my post.

    "The space availabe from the top of the key to the bottom of the fallboard is 7/64", a little less than 1/8"."

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    Joe Burros
    Cell: 646-410-7174
    jbcello@gmail.com
    www.fmi-newengland.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2020 12:25
    Sorry, I missed that. My problem with a S&S D some yahoo rebuilt is that the keys are so high he removed the felt on the key cover causing keys to click on fast return.

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Member
    Posted 06-29-2020 13:03
    Larry, how high are the keys on your D, if you measure from the underside of the key top to the key bed? I figured out that the distance between the key slip bed and the key bed is 7/64" at key 1, and 6/64" at key 88, so I just measure from the underside of the key top to the key slip bed and subtract those small amounts to get my key heights.



    ------------------------------
    Joe Burros
    Cell: 646-410-7174
    jbcello@gmail.com
    www.fmi-newengland.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2020 13:06
    It's in quarantine at the university.

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Posted 06-29-2020 14:40
    I measure from the key slip ledge 2 ⅝" under.   You don't want to raise the height to make the keysticks higher than the key upstop rail ends.  Usually about 20-22 mm of key above the key slip, I like to make that profile of the front to be squarish.

    Have you changed the back rail felt? The height of the key end lifter felt should be ~1 3/8" at rest.

    The balance rail pins should not be below the surface of the key buttons, maybe about 3 mm higher.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 8.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Member
    Posted 06-29-2020 15:43

    Hi Jon,
    Thanks for your reply. If I measure the key height from the key slip ledge the distance is 2 9/16", very close to the Steinway spec, but I though the key height is supposed to be measured from the key bed, not the key slip ledge.

    The balance rail pin is about 6mm above the top of the key, so I have some room there.
    And about 5/16" of the front rail pin goes into the key.
    The back rail felt has not been changed, the top of the key end lifter measures 1 7/16".

    The felt at the bottom of the fall board is about 1/32" thick, so it's not too thick.
    I guess the main question I have is, what is the minimum space you want to have between the top of the key and the bottom of the fallboard?



    ------------------------------
    Joe Burros
    Cell: 646-410-7174
    jbcello@gmail.com
    www.fmi-newengland.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2020 14:44
    Joe,
    On an already built piano, the basics of key height can be obtained by the case parts. With a normal white key dip, the bottom lip of the key covering should not touch the key slip. As you already discussed, the tops of the keys should not be pressing against the bottom of the open fallboard + its felt. Now, if you are establishing your own regulation specs on that keyboard and have changed any of the regulation, use your regulation as primary and fit the case parts to that. It's the way we did it in the factories. Get your key height the way you want it without the fallboard in place not straying too far from what you initially measured. Same with the key dip and the keyslip. Your specs are already in the ballpark so this should work. You can fiddle with the key height, dip, hammer blow distance, after touch and so forth so the case parts as-is are very close and you get the optimum feel, power and sensitivity that you want.
    If the keys show too much empty space under the fallboard, the most simple way to cure that is to glue a slightly thicker strip of felt onto the bottom of the fallboard. Conversely, if the keys press against the bottom of the open fallboard, it is simple to glue a thinner piece of felt onto the fallboard. If that is not possible, "remake" the fallboard bottom by clamping securely in the workbench and planing off a bit of the wood of the fallboard bottom, then re-felt it. When planing, keep the bottom in right angles to the front of the fallboard. This might also be of help to Larry who has that problem.  Also be careful of any keyframe parts that reside under the fallboard such as studs for the key upstop rail.
    The keyslip can also be lowered by removing the pins and planing down the bottom then replacing the pins. We're talking about only one or two swipes of the plane here. You don't want there to be visible space between the bottom of the white keys and the top of the keyslip. This is a little more complicated than the fallboard, but it can be done. Before planing, check to see that the existing keyslip bottom is straight across (if not, you'll have to duplicate its shape) and here also, keep the bottom in right angles to the front and back of the keyslip.
    This way, you have your regulation and case parts just the way you want them. Oh, and don't worry about the little variations in Steinway specs. The way custom-built pianos are assembled, there are variation in plate height, bridge placement or even left-right placement of the plate that may necessitate fudging a bit on the regulation. The important thing is that the action operates at its maximum potential and sounds and looks good. It appears from your posts that these are your goals.
    Good luck to you.
    Joel

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    Joel Rappaport
    Rappaport's Piano Workshop
    Round Rock TX
    512-255-0440
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  • 10.  RE: Fussing with Key Height on 1920's Steinway O

    Member
    Posted 06-29-2020 19:27
    Hi Joel,
    Thanks for the detailed explanation. It is very much appreciated. It's good to know that modifications to the fall board and the key slip are not out of the question, although I don't think I will need to go that far with this piano. But once I have sample notes all regulated I will see where I stand.
    Thanks again,
    Joe

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    Joe Burros
    Cell: 646-410-7174
    jbcello@gmail.com
    www.fmi-newengland.com
    ------------------------------