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Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

  • 1.  Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-01-2019 10:59
      |   view attached

    Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament


    Semitone (Ratio: 89/84) = 100.10 cents.


    Note Cents
    C 0.00
    C# 100.10
    D 200.20
    D# 300.30
    E 400.40
    F 500.50
    F# 600.60
    G 700.69
    G# 800.79
    A 900.89
    A# 1000.99
    B 1101.09
    C 1201.19
    C# 1301.29
    D 1401.39
    D# 1501.49
    E 1601.59
    F 1701.69
    F# 1801.79
    G 1901.88


    Pure 12th Equal Temperament


    Semitone (Ratio: 31/19) = 100.10 cents.


    Note Cents
    C 0.00
    C# 100.10
    D 200.21
    D# 300.31
    E 400.41
    F 500.51
    F# 600.62
    G 700.72
    G# 800.82
    A 900.93
    A# 1001.03
    B 1101.13
    C 1201.23
    C# 1301.34
    D 1401.44
    D# 1501.54
    E 1601.65
    F 1701.75
    F# 1801.85
    G 1901.96

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-01-2019 14:20
    The ratio of every semitone of this Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament is 89/84. This means that every octave has been equally divided into 12 semitones.

    Therefore, I have shown that it is possible to achieve equal division of the octave into 12 semitones via tunings that are entirely based on rational numbers.

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-01-2019 20:07
    Sounds interesting. Can you please give me the temperament offsets so I can try it out? I can run it beside OnlyPure and see how they line up. 

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-01-2019 20:30

    Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament


    Offsets in Cents from Pure Octave Equal Temperament


    Note Cents
    C 0.00
    C# +0.10
    D +0.20
    D# +0.30
    E +0.40
    F +0.50
    F# +0.60
    G +0.69
    G# +0.79
    A +0.89
    A# +0.99
    B +1.09
    C +1.19

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-02-2019 09:47
    There's 13 notes here. What should C be?

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-02-2019 09:50
    Note Cents
    C 0.00
    C# +0.10
    D +0.20
    D# +0.30
    E +0.40
    F +0.50
    F# +0.60
    G +0.69
    G# +0.79
    A +0.89
    A# +0.99
    B +1.09

    The value of C should be 0.00 cents.

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-02-2019 10:05
    Please forgive me but I'm really rather wondering what the idea is. Pure 12th ET is very much an aural thing and very dependent upon the inharmonicity of the strings, aligning the 3rd harmonic with the quint perfectly. So I'm not at all sure what the objective is in this theoretical exercise as that alignment of 3rd harmonic and quint will vary from instrument to instrument. Isn't the "magic" of piano tuning that it can't always be codified and that it's a meeting of art and mathematics that can't always be aligned?

    Perhaps I missed a step but don't see what is any more rational about the "rational approach" than the aural tuning, and for me I don't see the point in distinguishing between differences of 0.1 of a cent, as at 440 for instance 1 cent is only one beat in four seconds. 

    0.1 cent being one beat in forty seconds is impossible to distinguish in the realm of tuning a piano. Indeed in tuning the 1854 Betsy grand at Hammerwood the pitch varies by 2 cents between the struck and the sustaining sound. Whilst cent measurements for a machine to give a good guide are helpful, tuning is an approximate business in which only the ear is the final arbiter.

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 8.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-02-2019 10:11
    David P said: Whilst cent measurements for a machine to give a good guide are helpful, tuning is an approximate business in which only the ear is the final arbiter.

    Wiser words have rarely been spoken!!

    Richard West





  • 9.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-02-2019 10:18
    David,

    "Please forgive me but I'm really rather wondering what the idea is."

    1. To show that equal division of the octave into 12 semitones can be achieved via tunings that are entirely based on rational numbers.
    2. It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-02-2019 21:12

    Please forgive me but I'm really rather wondering what the idea is.
    David Pinnegar,  07-02-2019 10:04
    I guess I thought it was just to have some fun 😃  Don't worry, I won't try it out on the 1854 Betsy grand. 😒😉 Yikes! The mileage charge alone would be a killer! 😬

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-02-2019 10:32
    Scott, there are 13 notes there because technically pure 12th ET is
    not an octave-repeating temperament. Each C across the whole scale
    would need its own unique offset.

    Neither Pure 12th ET (nor this approximation of pure 12th ET) nor any
    other width of ET can be represented by 12 offsets, other than pure octave ET with its 12 0.0 "deviations". (88 offsets would
    be required for all other widths of ET.) Different widths of ET cannot be tuned with the
    historical temperament function as currently implemented in today's
    ETD's.




  • 12.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-02-2019 21:01
    Thanks for the explanation Kent. 👍

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-03-2019 06:08
    It is possible to try such non repeating tunings in Pianoteq as a helpful simulation.

    But my experience is that widening the octaves widens the thirds even more and makes the sound harsher.

    Yesterday I had the experience of tuning a Kawai concert grand for the third year running in contrast using a tuning system based on harmonic relationships and every year the instrument, formerly very harsh, has become progressively sweeter as presumably the soundboard matures in harmonious vibrations as do well played violins.

    Best wishes

    David P

    ------------------------------
    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Curator and House Tuner - Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex UK
    antespam@gmail.com

    Seminar 6th May 2019 - http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf "The Importance of Tuning for Better Performance"
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-03-2019 21:25
    Not trying to be dismissive, but I think "Pure 12th Equal Temperament" is largely just a fancy way of saying "Stretched octave tuning" which is pretty much what we've been doing all along. A good stretched tuning will have fairly pure 12ths, so it makes sense to use pure 12ths as a means to arrive at a good stretched octave tuning. But there's nothing uniquely mystical or magical about pure 12ths, and I would definitely hesitate to make them the only criteria for tuning a piano. 

    As a side note, typing the offsets Roshan provided into an ETD's custom temperament will not result in a pure 12th tuning.

    ------------------------------
    Anthony Willey, RPT
    Willey Piano Tuning
    PianoMeter
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-04-2019 03:20
    "As a side note, typing the offsets Roshan provided into an ETD's custom temperament will not result in a pure 12th tuning."

    The result would be an excellent approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament.


    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-04-2019 12:15
    Yes, I would say approximation is the appropriate word. I tried it out yesterday with PianoMeter and OnlyPure. In the temperament area it followed OP nicely until C3 where it deviated about 1.5 - 2 cents. In the bass OP wanted to go significantly lower, 4 - 5 cents. In the treble it followed along pretty well. 

    A while back I was trying to duplicate at P12th tuning with TuneLab and I had some of the same issues. Close but not quite there. So, yes, a nice approximation but not right on. 

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 14:20
    Not trying to be dismissive, but I think "Pure 12th Equal Temperament" is largely just a fancy way of saying "Stretched octave tuning" which is pretty much what we've been doing all along. A good stretched tuning will have fairly pure 12ths, so it makes sense to use pure 12ths as a means to arrive at a good stretched octave tuning. But there's nothing uniquely mystical or magical about pure 12ths, and I would definitely hesitate to make them the only criteria for tuning a piano.


    Which is the other reason I was unable to get on the ETD bandwagon from years ago.  I could not find one that would "intuitively" tune as I was tuning, because as I ultimately found out by comparing my standard tuning to an OP tuning, I learned that I had been tuning (virtually) P12 ET for many years and didn't realize it. But the ETD's (until recently) didn't like to duplicate that. So, to me, unless the machine could think the way I think, I had little use for it (till my hearing fails of course).

    Now I largely tune EBVT anyway so it still can't do my thinking for me. I have to plug away, manually making decision after decision, laboriously calculating and comparing...ugh.  But I love it!

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 15:36
    Re: "The result [of typing the offsets into an ETD's custom temperament] would be an excellent approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament." 

    No, it wouldn't, for a number of reasons. 
    1. That's not how ETDs handle custom temperaments. A custom temperament with 12 offsets is meant to repeat itself every octave. The result of entering those 12 offsets would be a small (1 cent) jump in the tuning curve every 12 notes. (See picture) It would mess with other intervals, but the octave widths would be unchanged. 
    The (already stretched) tuning curve generated by an ETD is a better approximation of Perfect 12th tuning than the roughened tuning curve you would get by adding those offsets as a custom temperament. Although I doubt the differences would be very noticeable, as all the deviations are smaller than 1.1 cents. I'm obviously using PianoMeter in this example, but I suspect that TuneLab, Verituner, and CyberTuner handle custom temperaments in a similar way, adding temperament offsets to an already stretched tuning curve, and repeating them every octave. 
    2. You seem to be ignoring inharmonicity. If you simply tuned the fundamental harmonic to the theoretical frequencies of what we're calling Perfect 12th Equal Temperament you'd end up with a tuning that doesn't sound good because it doesn't have enough stretch. Take your spreadsheets and look at the difference between P12 equal temperament and regular 12-tone equal temperament. By the time you get out to A0 and C8, Perfect 12th ET is respectively -4.94 cents flat and 4.01 cents sharp of regular equal temperament. But the Railsback curves of good tunings often deviate from equal temperament by as much as 50 cents at the high and low ends of the piano. 
    A Perfect 12th tuning is achieved by tuning the 3rd harmonics of lower notes to the 1st harmonics of higher notes. (Or in the bass, by tuning the 6th harmonics of lower notes to the 2nd harmonics of higher notes.) Inharmonicity means that the harmonics are out of tune with the fundamental, so theoretical fundamental frequencies don't actually matter much to piano tuners (both ETD and Aural). What is important is that the harmonics are in tune with each other. 


    ------------------------------
    Anthony Willey, RPT
    Willey Piano Tuning
    PianoMeter
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 16:34
    Fine explanation. I would just add that it is possible to correct for inharmonicity without adding additional stretch. Traditional piano tuning adds extra stretch while still using pure octave ET as the underlying math model, resulting in a tuning that can be a bit incoherent. In the center of the piano, Pure 12th ET adds no stretch other than what is necessary to correct for inharmonicity; thus preserving much of the beat-rate patterns of the underlying math model based upon the 19th root of 3.




  • 20.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 14:24
    Roshan Kakiya wrote:

    "The result would be an excellent approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament."

    This is absolutely incorrect.

    ETD custom temperaments use 12 offsets to approximate unequal temperaments within a pure octave, and then replicate those offsets in the other octaves, making no correction for the cumulative tempering of the octaves throughout the scale.







  • 21.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-04-2019 16:21
    Are there any ETDs that account for the cumulative tempering of the octaves throughout the scale of Pure 12th Equal Temperament?

    Are there any ETDs that account for inharmonicity and adjust temperaments accordingly?

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 16:35
    No, there is no cumulative tempering in the custom temperament function, which was invented to emulate unequal temperaments.

    As Anthony Willey correctly points out, a better emulation of pure 12th ET would be provided, not by the custom temperament section, but rather, by the regular stretch function. All that is needed is to correct for inharmonicity and then align the (additional) stretch curve with the math model of a pure 12th ET or another chosen width of ET.




  • 23.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-04-2019 18:13
    "All that is needed is to correct for inharmonicity and then align the (additional) stretch curve with the math model of a pure 12th ET or another chosen width of ET."

    How does one correct for inharmonicity in the first place?


    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 19:10
    Complex question.

    The modern piano and equal temperament both existed before inharmonicity was well-understood, so aural piano tuners simply attempted to tune the theoretical beat rates of pure octave ET as best they could. This automatically adjusted in a way for inharmonicity. After all, one can tune the 4:2 octave beatless, regardless of whether those coincident partials are sharp.

    "The piano tuner’s compromise” describes this aural tuning style which attempts to tune the various intervals collectively as close as possible to their target rates without necessarily giving absolute priority to any given individual interval. This is possibly a way of explaining the origin of the stretched octave; tuners found that the overall beat rate pattern was enhanced by a slightly stretched single octave.

    There is a math model for inharmonicity which derives an inharmonicity constant, which attempts to describe the inharmonicity of a given string mathematically. But actual inharmonicity is a bit more random and inconsistent than implied by the name “constant”.

    The ETD’s have various ways of doing their calculations. Some attempt to determine the inharmonicity constant and calculate from there. Others measure the specific sharpness of specific partials and then draw graphical lines to connect of the partials along a curve, ending up with a Railsback curve specifically constructed for each piano. There are some other, proprietary methods.




  • 25.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-05-2019 11:21
    Kent said: "The piano tuner's compromise" describes an aural tuning style which attempts to tune the various intervals collectively as close as possible to their target rates without necessarily giving absolute priority to any given individual interval. This is a possibly a way of explaining the origin of the stretched octave; tuners found that the overall beat rate pattern was enhanced by a slightly stretched single octave.

    First an admission: I've been lazy. I haven't kept up with the latest tuning developments. Secondly, I'll reveal my ignorance with a "stupid" question. Is there a succinct description of the resultant aural benchmarks of pure 12th tuning? You explain that the various ETD makers achieve pure 12th curves in various ways. What about us aural tuning guys? The piano tuners compromise always started by stating that the initial  4:2 temperament octave had to be widened "slightly", making the 10th slightly faster that the Major 3rd and pushing 5ths purer without making 4th too busy. So for decades we all tried to define what "slightly" meant and the results varied between technicians according to their preferences. 

    Does pure 12 take care of this "slightly" question? By striving for pure 12th will we automatically get the stretch "right?" No more guessing about how much stretch is enough. I imagine there are wide double octave. Does pure 12 stretch get extreme enough in the top octave to allow for pure triple octaves without unduly wide single octaves? 

    In a related question, why was Stopper so secretive and proprietary initially about his work? Is his "philosophy" readily available for all to study and apply now? Was he the one who really created the interest in pure 12 tuning? And, from a historical perspective, do you put Virgil Smith's philosophy giving an essentially pure 12th result even though the way he tried to describe it was not the best?

    Finally, although I don't subscribe to David Pinnegar's tuning preferences, I agree to the extent that the wider we set the initial temperament octaves, the wilder the thirds will be across the middle of the piano. There are those that will say, so what. Customers don't hear thirds. Even professional tuners struggle hearing thirds. Why bother? As David rightly points out, those wide thirds can be obnoxious, especially heard as 10ths and 17ths in the tenor areas. My tendency is to sacrifice a bit of stretch in the middle and make up for it with more stretch in the top octave and a half. 

    Thanks, Kent for all your work and research in all of this. If we've come to a place of agreement on what now constitutes "slightly" then that is a huge step forward in our profession.

    Richard West





  • 26.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-05-2019 17:02
    Richard West wrote:
    "First an admission: I've been lazy. I haven't kept up with the latest tuning developments. Secondly, I'll reveal my ignorance with a "stupid" question. Is there a succinct description of the resultant aural benchmarks of pure 12th tuning?"
    Define succinct.  8^)
    The following are targets; one tries to get each as close to the target rate as one can while at the same time trying to get each of the other targets as close as possible.
    12ths are clean.
    Fifths and octaves are tempered the same; a fifth will beat the same as the octave above the upper note of the 5th. That is, C4-G4 = G4-G5.
    Fourths are faster than fifths, but beyond that, in the 4th-5th test of the 4:2 octave, the fourth beats twice as fast as the fifth. C4-F4 beats twice that of F4-C5. (This doesn't explicitly answer how much faster to make the 10th over the 3rd, but it is a very clear, if indirect, answer, all the same. Tune the 3rd-10th so that the fourth is twice that of the fifth.)
    Fourths and double octaves are tempered the same. C4-F4 = C4-C6. (This answers how to tune the 3rd-17th, so that the fourth and the double-octave beat the same.)
    These targets may seem "circular" at first, but there is only one solution to make all of the above true - pure 12th equal temperament.
    "You explain that the various ETD makers achieve pure 12th curves in various ways. What about us aural tuning guys?"
    There are two aural methods that I know of for tuning pure 12th ET: one is my Every Which Way for Pure 12th ET which is a beat-counting method. And Bernhard himself tunes clean 12ths and tunes a 3rd note in between to make the 5th-octave intervals or the octave-fifth intervals into a clean 3-note chord. It works; I've listened to him do it.
    "The piano tuners compromise always started by stating that the initial  4:2 temperament octave had to be widened "slightly", making the 10th slightly faster that the Major 3rd and pushing 5ths purer without making 4th too busy. So for decades we all tried to define what "slightly" meant and the results varied between technicians according to their preferences."
    See above. "Slightly" is defined for the compound 3rds by carefully controlling the slow-beating 4ths, 5ths, octaves, 12ths, and double-octaves. 
    "Does pure 12 take care of this "slightly" question? By striving for pure 12th will we automatically get the stretch "right?" No more guessing about how much stretch is enough. I imagine there are wide double octave."
    Yes to all these.
    "Does pure 12 stretch get extreme enough in the top octave to allow for pure triple octaves without unduly wide single octaves?"
    The answer here is counter-intuituve. But stay with me. In the math model of pure 12th ET, the octave is tempered 1.23 cents wide, the double-octave is 2.47 cents wide, and the triple octave is 3.70 cents wide. But because of increasing inharmonicity when ascending the partial series of the lower note, the triple octave comes out tempered wide, but less than the 3.70 cents. Octaves, double-octaves, and triple-octaves, then can all come out close to clean. (Preferences in the top octave are still hopelessly personal; some add a bit of extra stretch, even in pure 12th ET. That's OK.)
    "In a related question, why was Stopper so secretive and proprietary initially about his work? Is his "philosophy" readily available for all to study and apply now? Was he the one who really created the interest in pure 12 tuning?"
    Yes, I learned of pure 12th ET directly from Bernhard. And by the way, Bernhard has embraced the fact that the ETD's are adopting pure 12th ET. Adoption of pure 12th ET is good for everyone, and certainly good for Bernhard and his OnlyPure.
    "And, from a historical perspective, do you put Virgil Smith's philosophy giving an essentially pure 12th result even though the way he tried to describe it was not the best?"
    I revere Virgil, and consider him to be an important part of tuning history.
    "Finally, although I don't subscribe to David Pinnegar's tuning preferences, I agree to the extent that the wider we set the initial temperament octaves, the wilder the thirds will be across the middle of the piano. There are those that will say, so what. Customers don't hear thirds. Even professional tuners struggle hearing thirds. Why bother? As David rightly points out, those wide thirds can be obnoxious, especially heard as 10ths and 17ths in the tenor areas. My tendency is to sacrifice a bit of stretch in the middle and make up for it with more stretch in the top octave and a half."
    Pure 12th ET is a slightly (there's that word again!) stretched piano tuning that consistently controls the M3rds and protects them from getting wider than necessary. The overall effect of consistent stretch is a coherent, consonant effect. I have heard this over and over!
    "Thanks, Kent for all your work and research in all of this. If we've come to a place of agreement on what now constitutes "slightly" then that is a huge step forward in our profession."
    I appreciate your interest very much.





  • 27.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-05-2019 18:39
    Kent said: Define succinct.  8^)

    Richard replies: You're answers to my questions. Thanks so much.

    Richard







  • 28.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-05-2019 18:41
    Make that "your" answers to my questions. And thanks again.


    Richard





  • 29.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Posted 07-05-2019 19:05
      |   view attached
    Richard-
    Bernhard tuned his temperament using a 12th bridge. In this example, D3 would have been tuned to A4, and now A3 is being tuned to A3 and A4 played simultaneously.
    Making the 12th bridge is the easy part.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-05-2019 20:52

    I appreciate Kent's comment that "Fifths and octaves are tempered the same," and believe it to be very significant to the observation that "The overall effect of consistent stretch is a coherent, consonant effect." Consonance is a very powerful effect in tuning! 

    Aural tuners often think of 'stretch,' in terms of the treble area of the piano; making tenths faster than thirds, and seventeenths faster than tenths, particularly as we move up the scale. 

    What is the effect of carefully tempering 'fifths and octaves the same' below the temperament octave, as opposed to tuning straight 6:3 octaves, as many aural tuners do? You'll no doubt find that you are tuning octaves greater than 6:3. You'll still be making tenths faster than thirds, and seventeenths faster than tenths as you move up the scale. However, if you measure the treble stretch numbers with an ETD, you may find them to be significantly lower than you might have otherwise anticipated. In the octave or so immediately below the temperament, you'll likely find the numbers to indicate more stretch than anticipated, at least as compared to a more traditional approach. 

    What determines the size of the octave? If the target is to temper the fifth and octave the same, then the answer must be the fifth. The width of the fifth, dictates the width of the fourth in equal temperament. Therefore, an adjacent fifth and fourth determines the size of the octave.

    All of this speaks to the consonance, unity and resolution of the piano. Almost any note played in the bass, will be in tune with the treble, at least on a well scaled piano. 



    ------------------------------
    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-06-2019 10:58
    Rick said: What determines the size of the octave? If the target is to temper the fifth and octave the same, then the answer must be the fifth. The width of the fifth, dictates the width of the fourth in equal temperament. Therefore, an adjacent fifth and fourth determines the size of the octave.

    Richard replies: You bring up a couple of things that make me want to point you and other expert tuners to a new class at the Tucson convention. Bob Conrad is doing a couple of classes related to what he calls "direct interval tuning." Here's  what Bob does: The first and probably most unique and interesting part of what I'm doing, is how I go about finding (what I consider to be) the 'best' width of the A3/A4 octave. Part of that involves several directly measured interval widths, especially octaves across the piano and temperament fifths. He actually determines interval widths in cents. If you ask him how wide his fifths in the temperament are in cents, he can tell you. And Bob is an excellent aural tuner, so listening and measuring carry equal importance. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. In one of his classes he'll discuss the basics of "mapping" all of the measurements, a method that does not need an algorithm to put together a tuning curve for the whole piano. He's literally had years of research and trial and error in developing quite an amazing system, including the graphics to go with it. 

    For anyone interested in ETD and aural methods combined in a truly unique and unprecedented way, go to Bob's two classes. 

    A Combination of Aural & Accu-Tuning

    Richard West








  • 32.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 14:18
    Anthony Willey, RPT wrote:

    "Not trying to be dismissive, but I think "Pure 12th Equal Temperament" is largely just a fancy way of saying "Stretched octave tuning" which is pretty much what we've been doing all along."

    Pure 12th ET provides a precise amount of stretch, and provides a way of controlling stretch uniformly across the scale. "Stretched octave tuning" is not a description of a uniform stretch, but is simply a general and imprecise description.  The leading ETDs have adopted pure 12th ET; perhaps yours should do so as well. ��

    "But there's nothing uniquely mystical or magical about pure 12ths, and I would definitely hesitate to make them the only criteria for tuning a piano."

    Pure 12th ET does not rely on pure 12ths alone, but rather establishes its own unique set of beat rate patterns for all of the tuning intervals. It would be worth your while to learn the details of the system.

    "As a side note, typing the offsets Roshan provided into an ETD's custom temperament will not result in a pure 12th tuning."

    You are most certainly correct about that.





  • 33.  RE: Rational Approximation of Pure 12th Equal Temperament

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-04-2019 15:59
    @ Kent, 
    I think you're right about "stretched octaves" being a general and imprecise term, and I personally don't like it. I only use it because ​that's the term others seem to use. 
    Re: "Pure 12th ET does not rely on pure 12ths alone" I suppose I'll have to go back and read your "21st Century Tuning Style" series to understand that :-) 

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    Anthony Willey, RPT
    Willey Piano Tuning
    PianoMeter
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