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Another Baldwin F

  • 1.  Another Baldwin F

    Member
    Posted 07-12-2021 23:13

    Going to do some work on a Baldwin F soon - also from the 60s.  What hammers would you recommend?  From the other thread Renner blue points sound problematic.  And recommendation for strings?  I've mostly used Mapes in the past but I'm open to branching out.  Thanks in advance for advice and any other Baldwin F opinions, anecdotes, information, etc.



    ------------------------------
    Amy Baldinger
    Vashon WA
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  • 2.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-13-2021 00:29

    Our family Baldwin is an F, from 1934. Beautifully built piano. It's ready for hammers, and I plan to make samples of all the kinds I have in stock, put them into the piano, and see which tone I like the best. I bought four or five different sets a few years ago.

    The parts are so beautifully built I have no desire at all to replace any of them. Instead I'll rebush and repin them. Hopefully I'll work out how to achieve enough friction with the rebushing from some experimentation before I tackle the full job.

    The board is lovely. It even survived being stuck in a hot dry living room in Colorado with big west windows and an occasional typhoon from a swamp cooler, for forty years.

    This piano has the usual Baldwin virtue of a very even, bronze-sounding bass. The tone just won't break no matter how loudly the notes are played. The 1970 SD-10 I worked on in Newport a lot has the same thing. I hope it's all right, sitting untouched in its room at the Oregon coast for over a year.






  • 3.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-13-2021 01:14

    I recommend Ronsen Bacons. They are a softer hammer of course. I would recommend bringing them up with a more heavily diluted mixture of B-72 and alcohol. A 12:1 ratio will bring them up slowly so that you won't overshoot. This will result in a warm, rich, complex tone with good dynamic range. Here is an example of the sound that you can get.   This is a Baldwin L  keep in mind that the bass has been rescaled and the strings have lower tension than your F through the use of Paulello wire for the bass string core wires.  Gregor Heller at www.Hellerbass.com built them for us. He is excellent. Regi Hedahl, also the pianist in these recordings and a very fine tech, at pianotuning@gmail.com did the rescale.  I am sure that he would help you rescale your F.

     I would recommend a good pair of earbuds.  

    Claire de Lune:

    https://mp3.fastupload.co/files/1623704007?fbclid=IwAR2eNQMA3PM6pTLBH4VbFj7oanJ3RTqvzhdG89vLs8qX1fMC7X69Ba2jQ5E

    for the bass, Chopin Nocturne, Op 48 No 1 first section:

    https://mp3.fastupload.co/files/1620390754?fbclid=IwAR0uZBWbQPCSjGd0-TJbMwY8apwisP0Y9dSlepOOIDLUH2q8aClqQcwZIXg

    If either of these links fails to play, then here is the link to a video of the piano. Start at 00:02:45 to skip the spiel.  There will be a nice three piece recital. 

    https://youtu.be/O3CzD2HTw7Ep

    If you choose to play the YouTube video, then you can press the down arrow for the notes to find a list of what was done when rebuilding this piano. 
    ------------------------------
    Michael Evans
    Mansfield TX
    817-822-3591
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-13-2021 01:58
    You didn't mention what kind of use this piano will get, nor the room acoustics. 

    I nearly exclusively use Heller bass strings.   I find them to have cleaner tone, less wolf tones or beats.   Heller is also about 1 week faster than Mapes.





  • 5.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-13-2021 03:30
    The most unique feature I've found is that the keys in the treble are so much shorter than the bass end that the back rail is raised in the top octave in order to keep the incline of the keys at rest on the same plane as the rest of the keyboard. Have never seen that before.
    This one also had ivory keytops, probably a custom order. that unfortunately needed to be replaced. 
    The piano was originally owned by Martin Denny, the originator of the Exotica genre. His family donated it to the Musicians Union for their performance hall. It's quite nice overall. It has a nimble quality that's unusual in larger pianos. Nothing like the SD's.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-13-2021 04:20
    Hi Amy. Hammer recommendation for his instrument: Ronsen Weikert followed closely by Abel Naturals. Wire: JD Grandt or Heller for wound wire w/Mapes IG for plain wire. 

    -Phil Bondi


      






  • 7.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Member
    Posted 07-13-2021 12:41
    Thank you all for your responses so far.  Very helpful.
    Regarding the venue - it's in a living room, and not a very big one with lots of hard surfaces.  Owner is a professional trumpet player and sometimes pianist who
    frequently hosts house events with great pianists.
    Michael Evans - love the videos and the details of the project!

    ------------------------------
    Amy Baldinger
    Vashon WA
    206-459-7672
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-13-2021 13:07
    The room acoustics suggest piano tone could easily become bright, and if floors were wood - even more so.
    My bias wonders if a trumpeter might not be conditioned to prefer brasher tone though...

    I would try to get client to offer his thoughts: what do current hammers sound like to him, what does he wish his piano would sound like. 





  • 9.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-13-2021 16:35
    The last project F we did, built in 1954,  the ratios required a light hammer, even after we moved the capstan forward.   For me the best tonal match for the makers intention is Ronsen Bacon felt.  Easily brought up, but not a fight to keep from blasting you out of the room.  The owner/artist, who normally likes a high energy, high output piano (other piano is a Schimmel 9')  is very pleased.

    Regards,

    Bill

    Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.
    www.shullpiano.com
    www.periodpiano.org
    909 796-4226

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 10.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-14-2021 00:10
    Bill, what would you say was the maker's intention?

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-14-2021 01:25
    Hi Steve,

    Except for the last years of the American production, Baldwin hammers were not high tension hammers.   They were closer to NY Steinway.  They could be brought up with lacquer to the desired projection as needed.

    Regards,

    Bill

    Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.
    www.shullpiano.com
    www.periodpiano.org
    909 796-4226

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 12.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-14-2021 01:45
    Bill, the Baldwin F I'm working came with a Renner action. My recollection is that the originals were Renner as well.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-14-2021 02:06
    Hi Steve,

    My experience was that the Renner actions in the Fs and Ds (and SFs and SDs) still had domestically made Baldwin hammers on them.   I was told by Ray Negron that the Baldwin felt came from the American Felt Co (that was a general observation but I think it applies to all Baldwin hammers during that period). The last iteration of these hammers came from Baldwin's purchase of Pfriemer, lock, stock and barrel.  I used to hang these hammers on Baldwin as well as Mason and Hamlin and other American builds, a really good match.  Then in the late 1990s and  2000s the hammers were a Renner product.

    I don't know whether Baldwin used Weickert felt before 1937, but would love to know.  It seems to me  that the Weickert felt then was more resilient than what I've seen today.

    I'd love to know more if anyone has specific Baldwin hammer source historical facts.

    Regards,

    Bill

    Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.
    www.shullpiano.com
    www.periodpiano.org
    909 796-4226

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 14.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-15-2021 03:58
    Bill, thank you, it's all very illuminating.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-14-2021 09:05
    Hi Bill:

    Your right about the lacquer, of course. Baldwin lacquered those babies until they were hard enough to produce a tone that is way too bright. I tried to wash the lacquer out of a set once with MEK as a solvent because it has a longer evaporation tim than other solvent that could be used. Then bring it back where I wanted it with thin B-72. It worked ok. I got a mellower sound, but it kind of sounded tired.

    Replace them with Bacons and bring them up just enough and you get a heavenly, rich, complex tone that emphasizes the fundamental throughout the piano. It makes for big bass, warm midrange and a bell like top. Combine that with a rescaled bass with lower tension Paulello cores and at least 7 or 8 trichords in the low tenor replaced with Paulello wire and you get a lot of clarity-especially in the low bass. The break can be evened out incredibly well, too. The top turns out to be so sweet and bell-like.

    If you are going to be in Orlando, I would like to get more detail from you about the light hammers in the 1954 F.

    Best regards,

    Michael Evans




  • 16.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Member
    Posted 07-14-2021 13:21
    Questions about rescaling - for those recommending doing that is it because it's known that the original scale is not ideal?  Or that new technology (Paulello wire?) makes a big improvement? I'm not experienced with rescaling except for one terribly scaled ???? - don't even remember the make --- that I helped my mentor rescale years ago.

    ------------------------------
    Amy Baldinger
    Vashon WA
    206-459-7672
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-14-2021 15:32
    The rescale is done to see how uniform the tension curve, impedance curve, and the inharmonicity curve are.  One consideration is the spread of the data points along each curve.  If data points along the average curve, based on a least squares calculation are in too large a spread (too erratic) then the piano will do well to have a rescale done and a new set of strings to allow the piano to be smoother and more efficient. Another is to see how the the curves can be manipulated to produce a higher tension or lower tension system.  Here are other consideration in the design as well. A more efficient system improves clarity and increases volume and improves the tonal characteristics of the piano. I don't know if I am explaining it well or not. I hope that I have made some sense to you. 

    Best regards,

    Michael Evans





  • 18.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-14-2021 17:09
    Amy,

    Going whole hog into rescaling will require you to invest in an entirely new set of wire types which can start getting pricey, and some software (often free but not always) to analyze, etc. Or you can pay someone to do it for you. 

    There are several possible approaches to the matter of rescaling as has been alluded to, however a simple "seat of the pants" rescaling (with benefits) can be accomplished simply by substituting Paulello type 0 wire for the existing low tenor gauges up to about halfway into #17 gauge wire, at which point you can switch over to your standard wire type. I do this quite often with good results. What this does is to raise the breaking % point a little higher in the direction of ideal. Then have your bass strings made by one of the makers that has the capacity to optimize the bass section. All you need to do is send the string lengths data they ask for and they do the rest.

    IMPORTANT CAVEAT: Paulello wire is metric, therefore "virtually" .001" less in diameter than standard American gauge wire. Therefore you must step up one half size in Paulello compared to AWG wire, e.g. if existing printed scale calls for 20 gauge you will need to use 20.5 gauge in Paulello (metric) to match that. Same for all sizes. 

    It can be very helpful to measure string lengths and plug them into software that will show you where improvements can be made, but generally speaking on large, well designed instruments the plain wire portions are usually already pretty good. If you want to start getting esoteric about it be prepared to need to learn a lot. 

    Of course poorly scaled pianos can benefit a lot from a good rescaling. But if you just want to get your feet wet the above will do that for you. 

    Others may disagree and present other options for you. It's up to you. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-14-2021 20:12
    Amy:
    Regi Hedahl does my rescaling for a very reasonable fee.  He is excellent.  If you are interested DM me.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Evans
    Mansfield TX
    817-822-3591
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Member
    Posted 07-14-2021 23:18
    Thank you Peter, Michael (and others) with more specifics on rescaling.  I understood the goals and the process at a high level but haven't done any myself.  I may take your advice in digging at least for the bass and some trichords as you suggested.  Does sound like a good way to try out the process.

    But still wondering - can anyone speak to the factory scale of the F.  Was it greatly improved by rescaling? I know there are some pianos that beg to be rescaled - is the F one of them and be worth the effort?  Or are the improvements more subtle and matter of opinion?

    ------------------------------
    Amy Baldinger
    Vashon WA
    206-459-7672
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-15-2021 01:03
    The only rescaling on the 1954 F was whatever Hellerbass did with the bass strings.  I kept the original scale, and it was an exceptionally fine piano.





  • 22.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-15-2021 10:30
    I can attest to the veracity of Bill's statements about the sound of the Ronsen Bacon hammers and Heller bass strings on the Baldwin F he referred to, as that piano is currently in my care.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-15-2021 08:34
    Amy, I have not examined the original string scale of a Baldwin F, so I will be making some educated guesses here.  Likely the bottom 4 notes in the tenor would be Type 1 Paulello wire as the best choice, transitioning from there to Type O carried up to a calculated transition point, from there Type M or your Roslau or Mapes wire to the top.  

    The most important consideration in hybrid scaling is breaking percentage and not tension as in traditional scaling.  We certainly want to smooth tension, inharmonicity and many other factors, but the most important consideration is breaking percentage if we must prioritize one over the other.  Even on larger pianos, both tension and breaking percentages drop as we descend the scale towards the bottom of the tenor.  That is because the size of the piano only allows us to make the speaking lengths just so long.  Typically, we raise the tension by increasing the size of the wire gauge, with the hope of getting better tone.  But, as we increase the tension by using a larger gauge of wire, the breaking percentages drop.  And there is a point in increasing wire diameter where thick wire does not sound so good, because it is too thick and the breaking percentage too low.  

    Part of the reason why it does not sound so good is that breaking percentages drop more and more as the wire gets thicker.  There is a goldilocks zone of good piano tone related to breaking percentages.  When one substitutes a properly chosen weaker wire type (type 1 or type 0), then the breaking percentages rise into the zone of good tone.  You also get a better blend across the break.

    When Michael talks about lowering the tensions in the monochords, there is enough safe headroom for him to reduce the size of the cores.  This will lower the tension, but also raise the breaking percentage and lower the inharmonicity.  This can be done with traditional wire.  If one substitutes Paulello Type O in at least the bottom monochords, then one can further raise the breaking percentages to our advantage.  We also have more ways to play with the scaling regarding the size of the wraps, and we have another valuable tool in our box.

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Posted 07-13-2021 16:30
    I'm glad you enjoyed it. With lots of hard surfaces I would caution against using a really hard hammer.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Evans
    Mansfield TX
    817-822-3591
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Another Baldwin F

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-13-2021 12:58
    Here is my 2 cents, Amy.  (Is it worth more than their 2 cents? :-) )

    Ronsen Low profile Weikert felt hammers

    Heller bass strings with Paulello hybrid scale core wire, nickel plated soft iron wrapped bichords, nickel plated bronze monochords (Place order through Stephen Paulello).
    All plain wire scaled with Types 1, 0, and M Paulello wire.  Have Stephen Paulello scale the piano for you.

    ------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    ------------------------------