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VS Profelt Limitations?

  • 1.  VS Profelt Limitations?

    Posted 01-22-2021 05:10
    I have an action in my shop for regulation. I checked the key bushing play when I picked the action up and they were not too bad. After getting it back in my shop I realize that some twirp had rotated the front keypins to snug them up. The bushings look like they are in good shape otherwise (not old and crusty or falling out). Any opinions on the chances that an application of VS Profelt will fluff things up so that I can have a proper fit on the keypins when aligned straight? Any specific suggestions on method to make the VS Profelt have maximum effect? I have very little experience with VS Profelt.

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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
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  • 2.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2021 06:22
    1) Don't use too much (glue failure may occur if you soak the bushings). 2) use cauls. 3) Allow time (overnight) to dry.

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    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
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  • 3.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Posted 01-22-2021 06:28
    Two drops per side? I have the Spurlock cauls.

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    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
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  • 4.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Posted 01-22-2021 07:05
    Wasn't the purpose of the design of the pins to be able to rotate them for a tighter fit?

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 5.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Posted 01-22-2021 08:06
    hello Jon,
    I'm not sure, but i think when visualizing how the front moves on the pin, it rotates farther away from the center, so in order to maintain a more consistent contact area for the key bushing, the pin needs to be that shape.
    Sometimes, when in a pinch, I will twist a front pin for a tighter fit.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 6.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2021 07:14

    This is standard procedure for me, on both new bushings or lightly worn existing bushings, Since I'm specifically using the Profelt as a sizing agent I do thoroughly wet the bushings, 3 or 4 at a time, followed immediately by the cauls. I've never had a problem with glue failure. After drying overnight I iron with Pianotek's brass sizing cauls with low heat for about 1 second. Meanwhile I lubricate keypins and align all FR pins. I Reinstall the sharps first, checking fit and turning keypins or easing with pliers as necessary, After all the sharps are in, same for the naturals. There can't be any noticeable key slop for the pianist.

     

    Sent from Mail for Windows 10

     






  • 7.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2021 21:29
    Mark wrote:
    "I Reinstall the sharps first, checking fit and turning keypins or easing with pliers as necessary, After all the sharps are in, same for the naturals."

    Ah-hah! so I am NOT the only one to install sharps first, then naturals. Do you also do it this way so that you can hold the fronts of the sharps at the bottom of the keysticks and move them side-to-side?

    Alan


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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 8.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-24-2021 07:08
    Yes! Both for the reason you mention (to check side play) and so that the keypin tool can have unobstructed access from behind the front rail. Since I'm right-handed I install the sharps from the bass up wiggling with my left hand while the right turns the pins as necessary. Then naturals from the treble down with the tool reaching in from the front. Ultimately I ant just enough side play to be perceptible - maybe .5mm or less.

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    Mark Dierauf
    Concord NH
    603-225-4652
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  • 9.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-25-2021 08:55
    I have had inconsistent results with pro felt on key bushings. Sometimes it works great, other times it does very little. Based on that, I made the assumption that perhaps it's effectiveness depends on the type of glue and type of cloth used. Has anyone else had inconsistent results and have thoughts as to why?

    On the issue of turning the front rail key pin, it was my understanding that this can accelerate wear of the key bushings. Due to the fact that a smaller, more defined surface is now bearing against the cloth. Is my thinking correct?

    Thanks,

    David Weiss





  • 10.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-25-2021 17:45
    David,

    You are correct in that. The FR pin is not DESIGNED or intended to get turned. It is that way to provide extra bearing surface towards the bushing. Some BR pins are made similarly but smaller. These bushings tend to last longer due to the configuration. 


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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 11.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Posted 01-22-2021 08:02
    Hello Terry,
    I use to to 5 drops per each side.
    sometimes, i have had sets where several bushing cloths came unglued in which case I rebushed the entire set
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 12.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2021 07:37
    What Patrick said.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Member
    Posted 01-22-2021 07:51
    Hi Terry,

    Do you have some Profelt on hand?  If so, do what Patrick suggested as procedure on the middle octave (most wear) and see what you think.

    Deb

    --
    5 Tarr's Lane WEST
    Rockport, MA  01966
    978-546-8428





  • 14.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Posted 01-22-2021 07:16
    Hello Terry,
    As long as the bushing cloth is in good shape, I have many times needled them inserted the proper size Spurlock cauls and applied the vs profelt.  After letting them dry for 24 hours, they have -so far for me at least- always come out with a very nice and consistent fit.
    I have one action in my workshop that I'm working on and the balance key bushings underwent that treatment yesterday. This morning I'll remove the cauls and then the fronts are next in line.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 15.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2021 08:45
    If the wear is "a little beyond" what I would like to see, I have been known to apply 1 or 2 drops on each bushing ONLY on the business area (where the pin contacts and tends to be compressed and hard), and let dry without cauls.  I have found that this "restores" the function of the bushings for the most part and improves the feel significantly. 

    However, I always take the worst one of the bunch and do a test run to evaluate the results first, before deciding whether to go global or rebush. If it works and we are only doing a recon job it is a simple way to reasonable improvement. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 16.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2021 10:07
    I've found Profelt to be very helpful. The loosening of the glue joint issue was resolved by a subcontractor I use for some of this work.  First the Bushmaster cauls are partially installed and then the Profelt is applied.  Once the felt is wet the caul is firmly installed.  The Profelt saturates the felt even with the caul partially installed first.  24 hour drying time is the shortest time I wait to remove cauls, the longer the better.


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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 17.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-23-2021 21:32
    Thanks for this useful tip, Tim! When we have had bushings come out while applying Profelt and cauls, it has been while pushing the cauls in. 

    So good to know the the Profelt can still get where it needs to go with the caul already partially inserted. Very cool.

    Alan

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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-24-2021 12:18
    I have also had good results that are long lasting using profelt and cauls, even on heavily-used university pianos.

    I tried to partially insert cauls recently and then apply the profelt, but in my case, the profelt didn’t soak all the way down.

    To avoid risking glue failure, I have found to not soak too many bushings in advance of caul insertion (4-5 maybe?) This probably is dependent on which glue is used too. I had kluge bushings trying to squirm away from the key button sides when I soaked 15-20 in advance.

    I would also add that if your bushings have wings (Kawai, or front,) I would certainly recommend double shouldered cauls so the wings don’t lift off their moorings.

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 19.  RE: VS Profelt Limitations?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-25-2021 08:49
    Used sparingly, it is quite effective and non-destructive. Balance is the key. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------