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Tips for tuning 1048

  • 1.  Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 10:42
    Hi, All.

    Wondering who has discovered a trick for tuning Steinway verticals,
    model 1048 in particular but even the model F and K52 exhibit the 
    problem. I can get good tunings on them but it usually takes about
    twice as long and leaves me wiped out and it is too difficult to justify 
    spending that much time tuning one piano.  


    ------------------------------
    Dave Conte
    Owner
    North Richland Hills TX
    817-581-7321
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-10-2020 10:45
    Are you tuning by ear or by machine?

    What are the points of difficulty? Setting the pins? Getting the whole string moving? Slipping tuning unisons?

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 3.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 10:57
    David,

    I will probably be using both. But the problems
    exist either way. It is endemic with these pianos.
    I may be taking on a new client with a number
    of them in practice rooms and classrooms. 

    Thanks,


    --
    Dave Conte, RPT, CCT
    Dave Conte Piano Works
    817-581-7321







  • 4.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 11:45

    I use an impact lever, but only for the areas which are so problematic. Attempt to keep the impacts small so the pitch doesn't run past your target. For the bass and lower mid-range I use my regular tuning hammer, and those areas offer little challenge.

    If you take on a client (institution) with a number of these, you may end up mastering them, though you might get a few gray hairs in the process. I've read posts by people tuning for all-Steinway institutions who said that the uprights no longer offered any more problems than any other pianos -- but I would guess that was not true for them in the beginning.






  • 5.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 12:00
    All of the above intermittently. It's hard to tell where the 
    actual resistance emanates. 

    I find that the pitch moves on it's own and is difficult to lock in quickly as 
    with other pianos. I typically pull above and settle down. But 
    1048s especially will behave (or mis-behave) such that pushing
    down may actually raise the pitch temporarily. 

    Dale Probst said he had a trick for these, but never divulged what it 
    actually was. Now he is gone and can't help. 


    --
    Dave Conte, RPT, CCT
    Dave Conte Piano Works
    817-581-7321







  • 6.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 12:41

    I attempt to approach the pitch slowly, from below, and not go past it. Part of the trouble tuning these is that if the pitch moves a lot as one attempts to get it to move at all, that introduces a lot of hidden instability, which appears on its own schedule.






  • 7.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 13:36

    One thing I learned at the Steinway seminar at Oberlin from Kent Webb was to not overshoot the pitch. Just bring it up to pitch.  I little lube at the pressure bars can help a bit, but very sparingly.  They are ugly pianos! A Yamaha U1,2,3 are way better.

     

    Why do they make such great grands and their uprights only mediocre?  The old K's were pretty good, but now over 100 years old. Roger Gable and I rebuilt an old K years ago and it turned out great, but needed a ton of work, worth more thnt it was. Really nice piano when we finished.  Dam double flanges!

     

     

     

    Paul

     






  • 8.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 14:58

    The Yamahas tune better, but I notice that given the choice, pianists prefer to practice on the 1098's. Once they are properly tuned, the tuning is really quite stable, and the tone is very rich. with a lot of variety possible.

    I'm afraid it's natural for piano techs to confuse pianos inconvenient to work on with inferior pianos. The Steinway 1098 seems to be the best example of a piano which can be a real bear for us, but which is better than its peers for a musician.






  • 9.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-10-2020 10:49
    Hi Dave,
    For sure, those are among the most difficult uprights to tune.
    I use CBL and an impact tuning hammer smothered with a lot of patience. 
    Peter

    ------------------------------
    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 10:54
    No pin bushings and little friction over bearing points makes it a challenge. I just did a 45 model yesterday. I don't think CBL will help here, it will make the problem worse. I try to keep the tuning lever parallel to the string so the bending of the pin doesn't affect the pitch.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




  • 11.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-10-2020 11:08
    The Leviton Professional tuning lever can be a help.  It helps put pin flex more in your control -- intentional rather than incidental flex. Force is applied on the same plane as the portion of the pin that is in the block.

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    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-502-9103
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  • 12.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-10-2020 13:14
    Do you mean a 1098?  I've read that what has caused tuning problems is a counter bearing bar above the pressure bar. This caused the wire leaving the pin to proceed in a downwards slope to the pressure bar from where is proceeds in an upwards slope to the termination. That extra bend above the pressure bar is unnecessary and once removed, tuning is easier. I have had favorable results with CBL on these high friction causing bearing points. I don't think instability comes from low friction but the opposite. Misreading the tension due to high friction can cause instability due to unreliable pin setting. CBL actually improves string rendering and highlights less than optimal hammer technique, since results are immediate and not lingering.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 13:50
    Yes, Jon. 1098. Did I say something different? Maybe so.

    I suspect the problem is a more acute angle at the counterbearing,
    but that also relates to increased resistance across the pressure
    bar which is probably also lacking in a good profile. I wish Dale
    was still with us. He said he had this mastered, and I never really
    pursued it with him.



    --
    Dave Conte, RPT, CCT
    Dave Conte Piano Works
    817-581-7321







  • 14.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 14:16
    Hey Dave,

    Did Dale have any students, assistants, apprentices, offspring or other relations working with him in any capacity? It's not just you who would like to know his method for taming these beasts.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-10-2020 14:30
    The last one I tune was uneventful after applying CBL.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-10-2020 15:06
    Low friction, no bushings.  Try working with the lever at 1-3 oclock position.  This way the pins flex towards the belly,  as you turn the pin, tends to lower tension in the front segment, and negates twisting force of the pin which tends to raise tension in the front segment. This leaves you with a net zero front segment effect on the pitch as you move the lever.  This way, you come right up to pitch and stop, since you have net zero extra tension in the front segment. Then, as you let up pressure on the pin, having turned the pin at 1-3 oclock, as the pin straightens and pulls away from the belly, the front segment is automatcally charged a little, without you making any confusing and obfuscatory pitch altering motions of the lever.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 08:50
    In my first tutoring session with Virgil Smith I asked him how he tuned S&S uprights. He told me that he held the lever in the 9 o’clock position. This was over 40 years ago in my early days as a piano tuner. That was the only comment about lever technique that I remember. I’ve been using the Levitan lever for several years now and with that I can avoid the flexing of the pin (if I want to).

    Bob Anderson, RPT
    Tucson, AZ




  • 18.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2020 07:59
    Great thread, great question - thanks for initiating. 

    Steinway uprights can really be frustrating to tune, my technique involves crying on the inside which eventually follows with the words "it's not your fault" 😂

    Stability is always my No. 1 goal ​(along with as clean as possible). Steinway uprights try to refuse both. A lot of times for me, they go sharp after/around the treble break. 

    When I worked for Kevin Stock at the Colburn School, he taught me the effectiveness of multiple quick passes. That's my approach for everything now, and the only thing that seems to work especially for Steinway uprights. 

    I've tried different hammer angles and because I have a 15° Jahn (the heavy one) I tend to actually wind up using it *sometimes at 3 o'clock - if I remember correctly.
    Mostly I use it at 12 o'clock for uprights and parallel to the string for most grands.  

    But thats the beauty of a quick pass - you come back to find out what worked and what didn't. When you come back 6-12 months later and it's still locked in, you know you found something that works.  

    I hope this helps but I won't be offended if you still need a good sit down with Professor Libation 🥃

    ------------------------------
    Elizabeth Pearson
    Gaithersburg MD
    240-751-5900
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  • 19.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2020 15:22

    I find that using an impact lever on the 1098's, and that using my regular pulled-long extension hammer in an impact way (tapping, whacking, etc.) means that I don't need to fiddle with the angle for stability, like keeping it at 12 noon, etc.

    I put it wherever it is most comfortable physically, generally at 2 or 3 o'clock. When tuning by impact (with or without the impact lever), the force is put on the pin for a very short length of time, and then immediately any twist which happened is reversed because one no longer is leaning on the lever. Applying the whack or slap in a good direction also makes flapoling unlikely, leaving only the immediately neutralized twist to be an issue.






  • 20.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 15:02

    Don't forget the flapoling because the tuning pins have no plate bearings made of wood around them. And don't forget the long duplex between the bearing and the counterbearing, more like a grand than an upright. Tension differences can hide in it, more than in a shorter more typical upright duplex.






  • 21.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2020 21:08
    Virtually ALL tuning "issues" for me have disappeared since discovering and using CBL on the counter bearing areas. Doesnt matter the piano. It causes immediate response to the tuning hammer (which is what I want). WAY more control. Even the absolute worst are tamed into manageability. Headaches gone.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 09:39
    The all-Steinway institution I know of has few 1098s and many Boston uprights, which have tight pins and wild seasonal pitch swings. Different issues. These are now 25 or so years old, so it may be different now.

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    Cindy Strehlow, RPT
    Urbana, IL
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  • 23.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Posted 09-12-2020 08:36
    Peter - please can you remind me about what CBL is? Are we talking about Protek CLP? http://www.heckscher.co.uk/protek-clp-action-lubricant/

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 24.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2020 09:09
    CBL stands for Jon Page's most excellent Counter Bearing Lube.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Member
    Posted 09-11-2020 11:19
    You tune a Steinway upright left handed. Or put the hammer in the same o'clock a lefty would. 
    I agree with Jon that friction causes instability. 





  • 26.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-12-2020 07:40
    The great late tuner Lorie Cote suggested to tune them with the tuning hammer between 11am and 1pm for stability. He did not mind tuning them. I think he was the only one🤔
    I have followed that method and it seems to be less flag polling.

    Best,

    Victor Bélanger RPT
    Belmont, MA




  • 27.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 09:35
    Um, yes, Jon. 1098.... (Dave goes off grumbling to self about stoopid fingers and tipeeng scillz...)

    ------------------------------
    Dave Conte
    Owner
    North Richland Hills TX
    817-581-7321
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-11-2020 09:32
    By the way, I meant to say 1098. Only off by fifty.

    ------------------------------
    Dave Conte
    Owner
    North Richland Hills TX
    817-581-7321
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2020 15:38
    20 yeas ago at a PTG Convention, Leroy Edwards mentioned that the only way he could succesfully tune a Steinway vertical was left handed. About 9 or ten oclock position.

    I have been doing it that way ever since. It takes a getting used to, but the first thing you realize is that the pitch change when tuning is totally predictable. Not the crazy put the pin here, and then the pitch changes a few seconds or moments later. 

    I also agree, some sort of lubricant at the pressure bar helps also. 

    Herb Lindahl, CT Chapter


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    Herbert Lindahl
    South Windsor CT
    860-644-9407
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  • 30.  RE: Tips for tuning 1048

    Member
    Posted 09-16-2020 16:30
    I love LaRoy and his classes. The vertical regulation was my first one at the Reno national in 2002 I believe. 
    What an eyeopener that was. 
     
    Jane said they had to evacuate because of the Creek fire that's smoking up the southern Sierra foothills.