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insert new tuning pins

  • 1.  insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-06-2020 10:17
    Hello,
    There is a question  which  i wanted to ask   long time ago.Sorry it might sound silly.
    While  restringing a piano, a new tuning pin would be hammered in rather than screwed in.

    So what are the differences between those two procedures ?

    Can i screw in  the new pins rather slowly? i mean really really slow ,which is slow enough to avoid heat generated.

    What i concern about when hammering the new pins in  is that the incorrect angle someone took may damage the pin block.
    what s more the impact force would make the pin block split.


    Here is a youtube video .

    would you mind copying and pasting that  to watch that video,thanks.


    I m just wondering which procedure is better,
    What is the downside of  one over the other,Much appreciate



    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2020 10:24
    Hi Harry:
    The link to your video doesn't work. It appears to be Japanese, but isn't a hyperlink to the actual video.
    You might get a piece of pinblock and test whether there's a difference whether turning the pin or pounding it in makes any difference or the speed of turning. If you've got an existing block, likely you'll use a larger pin. Maybe you might use a smaller jump in size, which would not stress the old block as much, but retain the same torque as before. You could try all of these things, and let us know what you find.
    Good luck.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego




    Harry Dane:

    Hello,
    There is a question which i wanted to ask long time ago.Sorry it might sound silly.
    While restringing a piano, a new tuning pin would be hammered in rather than screwed in.

    So what are the differences between those two procedures ?

    Can i screw in the new pins rather slowly? i mean really really slow ,which is slow enough to avoid heat generated.

    What i concern about when hammering the new pins in is that the incorrect angle someone took may damage the pin block.
    what s more the impact force would make the pin block split.


    Here is a youtube video .
    マグナムドリルを使ってチューニングピンを挿入

    would you mind copying and pasting that to watch that video,thanks.


    I m just wondering which procedure is better,
    What is the downside of one over the other,Much appreciate



    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557





  • 3.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-07-2020 05:58
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fol8KJuQKSc&fromveve=1


    Sorry, my mistake

    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2020 11:41
    Harry

    To answer your question directly, yes, you can turn in the new tuning pin. It's just that it will take forever as opposed to pounding in the pins. The advantage over pounding in the pin is that you can turn the string on the pin before inserting the pin in the block, as opposed to inserting the string after the pin is in the block. Again, it can be done, but it just takes a lot longer.

    As far as damaging the block, you won't have a problem when restringing if you support the block from underneath. There are many different ways of doing this, but a piece of wood supported by a jack is what I use.

    Restringing a piano with one size larger pins, pounded in, has been done successfully for many years by many technicians.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2020 11:52
    I should add that restringing using the pins that are in the piano is actually quite fast. I restring my pianos on my lanai, (that's Hawaiian for porch). When I'm not working on the piano after it's been restrung, I cover the piano with heavy blankets and a tarp and put chairs on top of the tarp to keep them the wind from blowing them off. Several years ago a tropical storm come through the islands, and the wind blew off the chairs, the tarp and the blankets the day after I got done restringing a small grand. All the strings got rusty, so I had to restring the piano again. Putting the new strings on the piano was not as bad as I anticipated. I turned all the pins out three times, and then put new wires on them, just like you do when replacing one string.  But the pins had already been pounded in. I didn't turn them in, initially.

    (I kind of lost my shirt on that job, but the customer understood the situation).

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2020 13:09
    I just want to emphasize that using adequate pinblock support is an absolute must when driving one pin or all pins on a grand piano. The action must be removed and stored safely and a jack with adequate surface area must be temporarily installed for this purpose and moved around in the action cavity as needed to provide support in the driving area.

    I say this because there has been some discussion (and statements made) on another popular forum that have given the impression that it is not necessary to support the pinblock for this operation under certain circumstances. This is absolutely wrong and could easily end up ruining a piano by an amateur DIYer who does not understand what is involved.

    If you do not have the proper tools and know-how for this you should stay away from any driving of tuning pins in a grand piano. (Upright pianos do not have the same issue and can be driven directly if needed).

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2020 13:54
    In addition some would also insist on support of the keybed with a Jack from the floor.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2020 15:39
    Larry,

    Yes, as I do when stringing a piano...glad you brought that up. I firmly support under the pedal lyre prior to pounding any pins.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Member
    Posted 12-06-2020 17:22
    This is not a DIY project, nor are we here to hold your hand thru your obsessive compulsions. Seek out a competent person with the appropriate technical skills to advise or persuade you away from your preconceived notions.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-07-2020 06:58
    Yes,without a support underneath  ,it  would be a totally disaster .Judging from the thundering sound when installing the new pins,i can feel the potential risk of damaging the pin block.

    So again,that is what my question is  asked for .

    My speculation  is   because of the efficiency issues, So techicians  would choose  to use the pounding method.

    If we  are not taking the time consumption  into consideration,Would it be the method as good as the other?

    How about the torque readings?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fol8KJuQKSc&fromveve=1

    In this video ,i think he is still installing way too fast,much heat could generated during his process.



    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-07-2020 06:33
    Sorry to hear your story.
    But i  heard that the Paulello  nickel plated music wires seem to be a solution  to the rust problem.

    I m just curious , should have one piano  installed with their wires, there wouldnt be a problem of rust .

    What is your impression on paulello strings? Plz, if   you have any thoughts ,let me know

    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Member
    Posted 12-07-2020 07:39
    Harry, your questions will be better answered on the Piano World Forum. This list is for participation of piano technicians, not piano owners.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-07-2020 08:47
    Sorry,All .

    There is the link for that video,here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fol8KJuQKSc&fromveve=1

    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-07-2020 08:52
    Please,is there any difference to the finished job?
    I mean the torque readings

    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    764789557
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2020 10:38
    Hi Harry,
    The question of torque readings is not a simple one, and the final results will depend on many factors, such as the pin size you've chosen and how you've dressed the holes (rosin? talcum? nothing?) The PTG's monthy Journal has recently had articles about tuning pin torque, and will be featuring another one soon that may help answer some of your questions.

    I'm certainly not the most experienced restringer here, but I've never heard of someone screwing in all the pins. It would make a long job even longer. A typical method would be to measure the new string so that you have almost 3 coils on each pin and then pound in to just above where you want it.

    ------------------------------
    Scott Cole, RPT
    rvpianotuner.com
    Talent, OR
    (541-601-9033
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2020 15:59
    This the piano you "treated" with WD-40, am I correct? As Jon Page already suggested, hire a professional before doing further damage.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2020 17:52
    If you treated the pin block with WD-40, it won't make any difference if you screw the pins in or pound them. They will never hold, no matter what size you go up to.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-08-2020 04:27
    No not yet a problem found,
    I just curious what steps should be followed to replace strings,
    perhaps it may need it someday.

    As for WD40,yes i was concerned that might had damage it.
    But based on my observation  that note it is still holding its pitch well  comparing with  the other strings.
     It was only a very little amount of WD40  into the pin bushings,i wasnt spraying it on.

    I also have an upright piano home,i tested with almost same amount on that piano,it has no signs of problem either.

    Perhaps the problems caused by WD40  which other people were asking were more serious.I was so scared of WD40 because i had seen their posts of the death certification by WD40.




    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2020 04:56
    Harry

    WD-40 is a lubricant. Not only will it lubricate the walls of the pin block hole, it wlll actualy seep into the fibers of the wood. You might not notice a problem now, but give it a year or two and the pin will no longer hold the tension of the string. Trust us on this. Most of us have a lot of experience.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-08-2020 05:57
    Hello,Willem Blees

    yes,I ve heard the danger of WD40.
    And 2 months ago, i did lots of experiments with WD40 on my samples.:(
    Different amount of WD40 used to pin bushings wood block etc
    I bought a piece of bench wood and test on it.
    I do admire WD40 hurts,but only with enough amount.
    With my little amount of WD40,i hope it will be fine.But anyway
    Just see how it goes.
    BTW,its  a  multi-use WD40


    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-08-2020 05:36
    Hello,Patrick Draine

    Sorry for my ignorance.
    This question isnt asked for WD40.

    I know i might sound funny when seeking for the remedy for that,lmao. That is because i was totally terrified by other people's articles with their unpleasant stories with W40.

    I think in their articles,  they sensationally overstated the danger of WD40 without stating  how they use WD40 in their disposal.

    Any rust inhibitors may come to the same result if one get that amount oil in the holes.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v-srC8bTIoI&fromveve=1
    This video is about cleaning the strings.
    I m doing the same thing as he does with his piano.
    Also YES the question being asking is for the oxidized strings  problems. The strings look grey ! most of the middle range.
    During the cleaning process,i found some signs of bent wires during their installation.
    2 images,attached. They must use the screw driver or something like that to split the wires once they had been installed.

    There are also some bent wires of the speaking parts which cant be seen using cameras.

    So i realized probably it may need restringing  someday maybe 5 years after.

    Again,i really appreciate your help  :)







    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-08-2020 09:53
    Dear Harry-
    A few months ago you posted extensively to Pianoworld about your deep concerns about WD-40, about tuning your piano with a socket wrench, about all the things you've learned from YouTube. You may have been given a time out on Pianoworld, and now you're here. You ask questions, but you reply with your own answers.
    Your attempt to create your own learning structure is rather unique, but it might be time for you to investigate structured learning.
    There are teachers available in New York. You pay for their time and experience. That seems fair.
    Why not use your online research skills to find one?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 12-09-2020 12:25
    Hello,Ed Suton

    Yes,You are right.All of your opinions about WD40  and suggestions of getting a coach are correct.

    But please read my postings twice .Please
    This posting isn't  the question about WD40.
    The past is past. It is not about  I ask the question and answer it myself.Sorry please dont get me wrong.^^ I did understand and agree with your demonstration .WD40 is not for piano. It is certain.

    I post this because the strings look grey !From my observation ,there are also wounds  on strings.May need a new set.

    Btw, if i had a very pleasant  time with my technician, i wouldnt have been here.

    I respect all your help and believe in your views.
    It may be odd to show my experiment,but i just share my stories after  using WD40.It isnt showing my doubt .

    If  I  ever make any of you angry, please I will say Sorry to you.

    The image you saw a socket wrench ,it is actually the torque wrench to read the torque.
    I used that to take a reading. I actually got a tuning hammer ,only for urgent use.


    A big Sorry  to everyone.
    Harry




    ------------------------------
    Harry Dane
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: insert new tuning pins

    Posted 05-06-2021 19:52
    Harry,

    To offer an answer to your tuning pin question:  I do imagine you would find a torque difference between screwing in the tuning pins versus pounding them in.
    Pounding the pin will crush and compress the pinblock wood in the hole, creating a compression or pressure fit.
    Screwing the tuning pin (as we do when removing them) allows the fine threads on pin to file or ream the hole - resulting in a loss of friction and
    enlarging of diameter.

    I have never measured the difference but know of no one who screws in tuning pins during restringing.
    Joël

    ------------------------------
    JoIl Weber
    Piano Tech
    vancouver WA
    970-663-9565
    ------------------------------