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Repinning Liquids

  • 1.  Repinning Liquids

    Posted 11-14-2020 17:07
    I've did a little bit of reading and have seen different fluids/lubricants (or sizing fluids) to use for hammer flange centers or centers in general.

    They are as follows:
    Protek CLP
    Page's CBL
    VS Profelt
    Alchol/water (methyl, ethyl, or denatured...none of which I've heard of before)
    Naptha/mineral oil or Naptha/silicone
    Finally...powder lubricant (I'm assuming Teflon aka PTFE powder or 5B pencil as mentioned in Igrec's Pianos Inside Out)

    So, I'm confused. Should I have all of these on hand? Is there any I should not use as sizing/lubricant? Which ones should I use? What's the difference between sizing and lubricant? I surely am confused. I perform a fair number of reaming/repinning jobs of frozen actions (especially with verdigris).

    I would like to improve beyond simply reaming and repinning. So, should I be adding any fluid or powder?

    I've also seen "zapping" center pins...thoughts? Should that be something I do (I don't have any "zapping" tool so...)

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    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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  • 2.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Posted 11-14-2020 22:54
    When repinning, I dip the Mannino burnisher in Teflon powder to treat each side. I'd stay away from graphite, it seises up or causes sluggishness after a while.

    I haven't tried Profelt but I do have a favorite lubricant.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-14-2020 23:10

    In certain situations, the center pin zapper has been helpful, but it has one extreme vulnerability:

    If you use it for more than a split second, it chars the birdseye.

    As for fluids, I think they usually are used to keep from spending the time and effort of reaming and repinning, which I think is superior.

    I tend to turn a jaundiced eye on any technique which leaves *stuff* in hammers or centers or cloth. Your mileage may vary, of course.






  • 4.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-15-2020 08:10
    Completely agree with Susan Kline

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    Gregory Cheng, RPT
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  • 5.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Member
    Posted 11-15-2020 10:47
    This is what I was taught for new bushing cloth. Never tried it repinning and because of what may be in the bushing it could be different results from piano to piano..
    The heat burnishes the felt is my guess and helps it compact and smooth. I use a bic lighter and heat the pin before I cut it off. A count of 7 is what I was told by Israel when I took the RPT test. A hammer that swings 4 times will swing wildly after burnishing. According to Fazioli, wool fibers become damaged over 115*F. I'm not sure what actually happens to the center pin felt.
    However, reducing friction without removing cloth would add to the density and therefore stability of the action center.
    Technically one should heat less and push the pin through and heat the other end so both bushings are equal. Seems like it would be difficult to gauge accurately the temperature of the pin so I try to keep the procedure quick and simple.

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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
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  • 6.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 02:35
    I like the idea of using heat for the final sizing of bushings (via smokes lighter, etc.,) and have been employing it recently. My one concern about it though is that it may be sizing the bird’s eye as well as the flange cloth? I certainly don’t want a center pin that is moving in the bird’s eye. Anyone else have experience that the bird’s eye is not negatively affected?

    Joe Wiencek, NYC.




  • 7.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 06:23
    Joe,

    I have been using heat for the final sizing of bushings for decades and have had no negative issues with the bird's eye .


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    Tim Coates
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 8.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 16:35

    This brings up an experiment I've been thinking about for a couple of years. Now that I have nothing but time, being totally at home, it really is ridiculous that I haven't done it yet.

    I thought about rebushing centers after reading a thread where some very high end people complained that if they rebushed centers and pinned them to a certain gram friction level, if they checked three weeks later, the friction was always much lower and erratic at that. It started me thinking about the nearly universal practice of sizing the new center bushings by putting in an undersized pin and wetting the new bushings with alcohol. They end up uniform, and the holes are perfectly round.

    HOWEVER, anyone who has tried to wash a woolen sweater will know that wetting wool makes it fluffy, as all the little fibers get kinked so they don't lie next to each other compactly. And, thinking about it, for a stable center we'd want the wool to be dense and ironed instead of fluffy, wouldn't we? A fluffy bushing would gradually get pressed down in use, lessening the friction in the center. If we don't want a higher and more stable friction in a center, why would we be rebushing in the first place? They always get looser with wear.

    Then someone (I forget who) talked about having very stable and durable friction in newly bushed centers, through ironing them with a lighter held up to the ends of the center pins before clipping them off. This was very interesting to me, but I didn't like the open flame or the technique, for the same reason that the zapper is so dangerous: heating the center pin that much is almost certainly damaging the birdseye.

    So, I thought, how can I introduce heat to iron the bushing without charring the birdseye? And the answer is obvious: heat the center pin before the parts are assembled, while the part with the birdseye is lying three feet away from the bushed part. And the zapper would work very well for that. Then, of course, remove the sizing pin and assemble the parts to the desired grams of friction once they had cooled.

    Only I haven't cleared off the workbench, gathered some Renner shanks I got used which are in pretty good shape, and set up two sets of them to rebush, one treated with alcohol to size, and the other set untreated with alcohol, but heated with the zapper instead, before assembly. Then both sets pinned to a certain gram weight, left for awhile, possibly put on a piano to get used for a month or two, and then measured for friction.






  • 9.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 16:15

    Thank you, Gregory.

    Of course, alcohol and water is the exception when it comes to fluids leaving *stuff* behind, since it totally evaporates, leaving nothing behind but the effect on the wool's texture. That's why I favor it for voicing hammers in the high treble. Great restraint in the quantity used is still necessary to keep from totaling the hammers, turning them to expanded balls of fluff.






  • 10.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-15-2020 11:22
    Mr. Sells,
    Lot to unpack there. CLP, CBL and VS Profelt are lubricants. Profelt is a silicone formula borrowed from the hat making industry. It will work as a sizing agent as well due to it's water content. I don't think CLP or CBL will do much in the way of sizing as their carriers don't swell the felt after application. Generally a sizing agent will swell the felt (usually with water) so that the felt will form itself around an inert object like a center pin or bridge pin to have an exact fit when dry.
    Methyl Alcohol also known as wood alcohol or Methanol is a poisonous chemical added to Ethyl Alcohol to make Denatured Alcohol. Ethyl Alcohol or Ethanol is the stuff that makes beer, wine and whiskey fun. Both of them will work as a solvent but the Methanol is more dangerous to work with. The added poison is what makes Denatured Alcohol denatured. This keeps distillers and consumers from bypassing the tax laws concerning spirits. Alcohol and 25 -50% water is the traditional sizing used when installing new centerpin bushings.
    Naptha is a light volatile hydrocarbon which works as a solvent and leaves very little if any residue. By itself it can loosen the grip vertigris has on centerpins but does not stop the corrosion from getting worse. Naptha can be added to some oils to dilute them and act as a carrier to get them into the bushings. The Naptha evaporates but the oil remains. Oil will act as a lubricant in this case but it's effectiveness, absent proper sizing, is questionable. I don't like using oil in centerpin bushings. I have seen very tight bushings that still gave 7 or 8 swings when tested that way but when measured with a gram gauge read 15 grams before breaking loose and flipping to the other side. When moving the flange by hand it felt like there was a tiny ratchet inside the assembly. There was enough lubricant to keep the part from ever sticking but the action was uncontrollable for the pianist.
    Dry powders like PTFE, Graphite and Mica are best when added to dry felt prior to the installation of a center pin. See Mr. Page's description above.
    Ultimately good pinning is really just a question of having the right amount of felt and the right size pin for the flange to work properly.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 11.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-15-2020 17:06
    There is no substitute for good work. Lubricants can somewhat overcome inconsistent pinning,
    but if they are inconsistent to begin with, the remedial effects will be temporary, and will be pointless
    if done globally as you will still have inconsistent but different variations. I think it is better not to 
    rely on shortcuts and do the work properly in the first place. Old actions centers that were well manufactured
    continue to function well. There was no need for lubrication. 

    As for verdigris, there is no cure. Even if one replaces the bushings, the contamination travels into
    the wood and will eventually creep into the action centers. The only answer is replacement of the 
    shanks and flanges.  I haven't heard of anyone who has come up with a successful way to actually
    stop it. It is surely more work and expense to keep trying to rehabilitate contaminated centers then
    just to go ahead and replace them anyway.

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    Dave Conte
    Owner
    North Richland Hills TX
    817-581-7321
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  • 12.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 10:20

    I am no expert on repinning and using fluids on centers.  But a few notes I can offer:

     

    As I understand it, naptha (lighter fluid) is good for flushing verdigris out of Steinway action centers from the early 20th century.  I have repinned the hammers from two Steinways and when the pin was out I flushed the center felt with naptha.  The fluid did turn a bit green, which told me that the gunk dissolved in it, and it dried out pretty quickly.  I have not heard of any other use for it.  I certainly wouldn't apply it without removing the pin.

     

    CLP is wonderful stuff for cheap old pianos, especially spinets.  I don't think I have ever disassembled the action from an old upright in order to repin all the hammers.  (I have done this to a good number of grands, mostly newer Asian imports.)  However, I occasionally run across an old piano and the owner wants to tune it and "just get it playing."  They are looking to spend maybe $300 max, maybe even $200.  If there are a lot of sluggish centers, repinning is out of the question for that price range.  But in most cases the likely cause of the sluggish centers is that the piano hasn't been played for many years.  A couple of drops on each center works wonders, and if the piano is then played they tend to not get sluggish again.  I don't disassemble anything, just drip the CLP from above and it takes 15 minutes.

     

    (CLP, in my experience, does not have the same effect on modern Asian imports, whose centers can develop excess friction but not because the piano isn't played.  It has to do with the felt used in the centers, or the interaction between the felt and the particular metal used for the center pin.  I have used CLP on these pianos before and the center eventually gets sluggish again.  Repinning is the only long-term solution.)

     

    As an aside, methanol is poisonous, but not extremely.  I'm guessing you would have to be grossly negligent with it for it to affect you adversely, like soaking your hand in it for 15 minutes.  Swallowing a few drops accidentally won't hurt you, although a tablespoon will.    Most windshield wiper fluid is a 50/50 mix of water and methanol.  If you're interested in the topic, please email me privately.  Don't want to clutter up the list!






  • 13.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 16:47

    I beg to differ on the subject of using methanol.

    Years ago I looked up the safety sheet for methanol, discovered it can be absorbed by breathing, swallowing, or contact with the skin. They also said that young children had died after drinking only a tablespoonful of it.

    What ought to be obvious is that there is absolutely no need to have any of it around, or to use it for anything. Ethanol is readily available from the nearest liquor store, and is safe to use on pianos. It does everything which methanol does, except without the extreme toxicity. The EPA has changed the formula for denatured alcohol so it has only 4% methanol. But why have even 4%?






  • 14.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Posted 11-16-2020 11:16
    Thanks so much for the discussion. It's been really helpful. A few more questions:

    How long before verdigris can "reappear" on a repinned action?

    For those that do use a "zapping" method of heating center pins...how do you do it? Do you make your own electronic device with a small battery and long electrodes or what?

    Is it okay to use VS Profelt or Protek CLP (or any other fluid) in the centers if the action may be reamed and repinned later anyways?

    Does VS Profelt work as a "cleaner" too like CLP or Page's CBL does? Does CLP and/or CBL work as "sizing" fluid as well?

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    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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  • 15.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 11:35
    I've used a zapper. Never again. Quick, dirty, not controllable not worth the risk to ones reputation for doing shoddy work. I wish all mention and reference to the zapper could be deleted from the interweb.

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 16.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 17:14

    Just as well to leave the zapper discussions, so that people are warned.

    Cobrun, it plugs in. They were made by the inventor Fritz Mehaffey, who sold them mounted to a board inside a 3x5 file box. The tweezers were hand made by taking strapping, filing or grinding one end of each side to a gradual point, the last 2 mm of which was then bent inward. The two pieces were mounted on a block at the user end to keep them apart, making a tweezers, with a normal electrical cord pulled apart close to the block, one end attached to each side.?? A buzzer was included in the circuit. The tone would change and diminish when contact between the two ends of the tweezers, through the center pin, was established.

    There were some difficulties, not least of which was the danger from holding contact too long. I once got a little shock from using it, unknown why just that one time -- possibly the electrical cord had frayed. In practice, Kimball console jacks were a prime target, because they usually were bushed using too much glue, so they tended to seize up in damp conditions. The trouble was that the ends of the center pins were buried in the cloth, and it took the devil's own patience to grope around until one could find both ends at once. Also, when treating some of the Kimball jack centers which had too much glue, zapping would melt the glue, which would then migrate and seize up again. At that point, the only answer was the bother of removing the wippen so the jack could be reamed and repinned. I'm awfully glad I never have to work on that kind of Kimball anymore, though in the 80's I saw a ton of them.

    I discovered by bitter experience that using the zapper on plastic flanges (like on Betsy Ross spinets) was useless, for two reasons. First, they would loosen after zapping, but they'd seize up again once cold. Second, it was fatally easy to break the plastic flanges removing and reinstalling them. I decided that a lick and a promise to fix a few seizing notes was not reasonable, and that only replacement with wood parts made sense.

    Also, to get any good from the thing, one needed to use it on parts easy to get to. My best experience ever was on a poor quality grand with just slightly sluggish jacks. Totally easy to access, and the smallest touch of current got them working again, even after they had cooled back down. I did the whole set in 20 minutes, and the piano was playable from then on.

    For centers unreachable while still installed, the zapper never made sense. By the time the parts, like wippens, were removed, they were ready for repinning, safer and more effective.






  • 17.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-16-2020 11:48
    Regarding the Zapper, I"ve built several, and no longer use them. The effectiveness is unpredictable. Sometimes it would help, and other times it would not. I can only guess it depends upon the felt and how it was installed
    when it was new. I had an action from a Young Chang that was sitting in my shop with sluggish centers. I used the Zapper and it seemed to help. I didn't "char" the centers, but they got good and warmed. The next day, they were stuck again. In addition, you have to have a good set of thin electrodes to actually contact the center pin. If possible, you want to do the job without removing the centers from the action rail. Since the center pins are often recessed in the bushing, the tips of the electrodes must have a little bend on the tips to contact the pin. Another time I had replaced flanges which the center pins were tight. No matter what I did those pins were too tight, and Zapping was not effective at all, nor any kind of shrinking solution (alcohol/water). Reaming was the only reliable way to adjust the friction.

    As far as shrinking solutions, on a cheap action/junker, it works for a while, but if there is excess moisture in the environment, it often becomes sluggish again. That also applies to using a hot box to dry an action out. Once, I used a hot box on an old action, and the glue joints began to fail because of the extremely low humidity, so be careful there too. And, even after drying, they often got sluggish because of the humidity that caused the problem in the first place. Damppchasers were a must if I dried out an action to prevent recurrence.

    Protek sometimes works wonders, sometimes not. Wurlitzers and some Baldwins were doused with mineral oil and naptha, which over time has become gummy, and Protek works great for those. But if moisture has swelled the felt, they
    don't work much at all.

    I often ream after using Protek, It still works after treatment. I have had some times adding Protek makes them more sluggish than before, but after the liquid evaporates, it's ok again.

    CBL and CLP don't "resize" in my experience. I"ve often thought of adding some water/alcohol to them, but haven't tried it yet. My experience with alcohol/water is that it's not very exact. I once shrunk the centers several
    times, and it appeared not to have worked. Then I put some Protek and they became wobbly. One douse with the shrink solution, then using Protek almost always worked for me. Keep in mind that I'm in San Diego, where excess
    humidity isn't anything like back East. On Coronado island or the beach areas of course it's more, but not in the high 70's or 80-plus percentages. So what works for me might not for you.

    My $.02.

    Paul McCloud
    San Diego



    Cobrun Sells
    Thanks so much for the discussion. It's been really helpful. A few more questions:

    How long before verdigris can "reappear" on a repinned action?

    For those that do use a "zapping" method of heating center pins...how do you do it? Do you make your own electronic device with a small battery and long electrodes or what?

    Is it okay to use VS Profelt or Protek CLP (or any other fluid) in the centers if the action may be reamed and repinned later anyways?

    Does VS Profelt work as a "cleaner" too like CLP or Page's CBL does? Does CLP and/or CBL work as "sizing" fluid as well?

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com





  • 18.  RE: Repinning Liquids

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-17-2020 07:58
    I have a hair straightening flat iron that I got for $1 at a thrift store. I got it for some other piano purpose, but ended up using it on a sluggish hammer shank center, with success. I did not modify it to press flat on both sides (as for releasing glue joints) but it worked anyway.
    Light weight and came in a stylish carrying case, as well!

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    Cindy Strehlow, RPT
    Urbana, IL
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