Pianotech

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

You didn't mention Let Off or Damper timing/lift.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hi Hank:
You might try swapping another hammer, wippen, etc., from the one next to it, and see if there's any change. If there's no change, it's not in those parts, but more likely the string, bridge pin, bridge or other part of the piano. If you pluck the string, does it have the same resonance as the others? If it sounds the same, same sustain, etc., then it's in the hammer/action somehow. Also, check the damper and see that it's lifting sufficiently to clear the string, or maybe something is resting on the string somewhere down in the piano. Look on the back of the piano to be sure nothing is touching the soundboard, or something on the bridge pins like a splinter under the string(s) inside the case. What does the bridge notching look like? Are they all carved equally? That would be hard to imagine, being a Yamaha, but still. Are the bridge pins loose? Are there gaps around the bridge pins? Look around, you might find something you hadn't figured on.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud
San Diego




Henry Mooney:

The middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]



Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

I've had lots of time to investigate this issue and it is still an issue.

As of today (Aug 26, 2020), four strings in a row (e-nat,f,f-sharp,g-nat--just above middle-c) all are sluggish in responding when played, making it impossible to play a passage using those keys with any speed.

Piano is upright and against a wall. I am not sure how to examine the sound board to see if something is caught in it. At least not without moving the piano out. That would be a project in itself. Any way to investigate that possibility without doing that?

One of the sluggish hammers is in fact swapped from another part of the piano (according to one suggestion on this list). THAT hammer is slightly angeld to the left, and I have had a lot of trouble bending it or twisting it, although as of right now that hammer does move to the strings without catching on the hammer next to it.

I have swapped wippens (BTW, I actually looked at the patent application from 1820-something, of the first successful upright piano in the USA, and it is spelled there without the h, in case anyone cares).

Several of the let-off adjusting screws are new, and several let-off buttons are new but look exactly like the originals; but adjusting the let-off has not helped to make the notes sound like all the other notes.

If forced to guess the problem (say on a phone-consult) I would suggest checking the actual keys (checked, they are level with the other keys, have clean felts and felt-posts); adjusting the capstan (tried); making sure the bottom of the wippen is not warped or cracked (tried); replacing the jack-springs (tried although that might still be the problem since I had to used generic jack springs--but some of the offending keys have their original jack-springs); I even entirely replaced at least one actual jack, with it's little part that attaches to the jack spring; inserted new jack pins; also tried different pins for the hammer mechanism; at least one of the hammer butts is a generic one, but I cannot see anything wrong with it.

Other ideas?
























------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:26
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hi Hank:
You might try swapping another hammer, wippen, etc., from the one next to it, and see if there's any change. If there's no change, it's not in those parts, but more likely the string, bridge pin, bridge or other part of the piano. If you pluck the string, does it have the same resonance as the others? If it sounds the same, same sustain, etc., then it's in the hammer/action somehow. Also, check the damper and see that it's lifting sufficiently to clear the string, or maybe something is resting on the string somewhere down in the piano. Look on the back of the piano to be sure nothing is touching the soundboard, or something on the bridge pins like a splinter under the string(s) inside the case. What does the bridge notching look like? Are they all carved equally? That would be hard to imagine, being a Yamaha, but still. Are the bridge pins loose? Are there gaps around the bridge pins? Look around, you might find something you hadn't figured on.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud
San Diego




Henry Mooney:

The middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]



Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hank,
One thought crossed my mind because what you may be experiencing might lead to a verry hidden possible cause. After beeing stumped on weak sounding notes in close proximity on a Kimball, I cast an LED spot light the front of the action examining the space on the butt flanges. By golly I found a dark substance built up in those flanges. Upon removing them, they were larvae that had been layed there which had slowed and jammed up the rotation at let off. Look there. If you can't see from the front, pull the action, and put on an action cradle if you have one.
Best,
Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2020 12:48
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

I've had lots of time to investigate this issue and it is still an issue.

As of today (Aug 26, 2020), four strings in a row (e-nat,f,f-sharp,g-nat--just above middle-c) all are sluggish in responding when played, making it impossible to play a passage using those keys with any speed.

Piano is upright and against a wall. I am not sure how to examine the sound board to see if something is caught in it. At least not without moving the piano out. That would be a project in itself. Any way to investigate that possibility without doing that?

One of the sluggish hammers is in fact swapped from another part of the piano (according to one suggestion on this list). THAT hammer is slightly angeld to the left, and I have had a lot of trouble bending it or twisting it, although as of right now that hammer does move to the strings without catching on the hammer next to it.

I have swapped wippens (BTW, I actually looked at the patent application from 1820-something, of the first successful upright piano in the USA, and it is spelled there without the h, in case anyone cares).

Several of the let-off adjusting screws are new, and several let-off buttons are new but look exactly like the originals; but adjusting the let-off has not helped to make the notes sound like all the other notes.

If forced to guess the problem (say on a phone-consult) I would suggest checking the actual keys (checked, they are level with the other keys, have clean felts and felt-posts); adjusting the capstan (tried); making sure the bottom of the wippen is not warped or cracked (tried); replacing the jack-springs (tried although that might still be the problem since I had to used generic jack springs--but some of the offending keys have their original jack-springs); I even entirely replaced at least one actual jack, with it's little part that attaches to the jack spring; inserted new jack pins; also tried different pins for the hammer mechanism; at least one of the hammer butts is a generic one, but I cannot see anything wrong with it.

Other ideas?
























------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:26
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hi Hank:
You might try swapping another hammer, wippen, etc., from the one next to it, and see if there's any change. If there's no change, it's not in those parts, but more likely the string, bridge pin, bridge or other part of the piano. If you pluck the string, does it have the same resonance as the others? If it sounds the same, same sustain, etc., then it's in the hammer/action somehow. Also, check the damper and see that it's lifting sufficiently to clear the string, or maybe something is resting on the string somewhere down in the piano. Look on the back of the piano to be sure nothing is touching the soundboard, or something on the bridge pins like a splinter under the string(s) inside the case. What does the bridge notching look like? Are they all carved equally? That would be hard to imagine, being a Yamaha, but still. Are the bridge pins loose? Are there gaps around the bridge pins? Look around, you might find something you hadn't figured on.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud
San Diego




Henry Mooney:

The middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]



Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hank, this might be remote but it seems so many remedies have already been checked off the list. 
Have you examined the keys? It's possible that the key leads have swollen just enough to impinge on an adjacent key; that the problem keys are all together is a symptom of a key lead problem.
There are tests for this such as if a key sticks but then comes up when the key next to it is depressed. But I would just remove the keys and take a look. It could also be bug residue fouling things up on the balance rail. We have carpenter ants here whose residue can actually glue the key to the rail and corrode the keypin.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2020 17:19
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank,
One thought crossed my mind because what you may be experiencing might lead to a verry hidden possible cause. After beeing stumped on weak sounding notes in close proximity on a Kimball, I cast an LED spot light the front of the action examining the space on the butt flanges. By golly I found a dark substance built up in those flanges. Upon removing them, they were larvae that had been layed there which had slowed and jammed up the rotation at let off. Look there. If you can't see from the front, pull the action, and put on an action cradle if you have one.
Best,
Kevin

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2020 12:48
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

I've had lots of time to investigate this issue and it is still an issue.

As of today (Aug 26, 2020), four strings in a row (e-nat,f,f-sharp,g-nat--just above middle-c) all are sluggish in responding when played, making it impossible to play a passage using those keys with any speed.

Piano is upright and against a wall. I am not sure how to examine the sound board to see if something is caught in it. At least not without moving the piano out. That would be a project in itself. Any way to investigate that possibility without doing that?

One of the sluggish hammers is in fact swapped from another part of the piano (according to one suggestion on this list). THAT hammer is slightly angeld to the left, and I have had a lot of trouble bending it or twisting it, although as of right now that hammer does move to the strings without catching on the hammer next to it.

I have swapped wippens (BTW, I actually looked at the patent application from 1820-something, of the first successful upright piano in the USA, and it is spelled there without the h, in case anyone cares).

Several of the let-off adjusting screws are new, and several let-off buttons are new but look exactly like the originals; but adjusting the let-off has not helped to make the notes sound like all the other notes.

If forced to guess the problem (say on a phone-consult) I would suggest checking the actual keys (checked, they are level with the other keys, have clean felts and felt-posts); adjusting the capstan (tried); making sure the bottom of the wippen is not warped or cracked (tried); replacing the jack-springs (tried although that might still be the problem since I had to used generic jack springs--but some of the offending keys have their original jack-springs); I even entirely replaced at least one actual jack, with it's little part that attaches to the jack spring; inserted new jack pins; also tried different pins for the hammer mechanism; at least one of the hammer butts is a generic one, but I cannot see anything wrong with it.

Other ideas?
























------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:26
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hi Hank:
You might try swapping another hammer, wippen, etc., from the one next to it, and see if there's any change. If there's no change, it's not in those parts, but more likely the string, bridge pin, bridge or other part of the piano. If you pluck the string, does it have the same resonance as the others? If it sounds the same, same sustain, etc., then it's in the hammer/action somehow. Also, check the damper and see that it's lifting sufficiently to clear the string, or maybe something is resting on the string somewhere down in the piano. Look on the back of the piano to be sure nothing is touching the soundboard, or something on the bridge pins like a splinter under the string(s) inside the case. What does the bridge notching look like? Are they all carved equally? That would be hard to imagine, being a Yamaha, but still. Are the bridge pins loose? Are there gaps around the bridge pins? Look around, you might find something you hadn't figured on.
Good luck.
Paul McCloud
San Diego




Henry Mooney:

The middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]



Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

When you say the parts 'look okay' does that include that they also move freely? You say that the hammer is a 'little slow,' does it need to be lubricated or repinned? Same question for the whippen.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 21:13
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

I am not quite sure how to libricate a hammer... It could well be part of the problem if you can let me know where to start.

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2020 07:16
From: Lucinda Strehlow
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

When you say the parts 'look okay' does that include that they also move freely? You say that the hammer is a 'little slow,' does it need to be lubricated or repinned? Same question for the whippen.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 21:13
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Get experienced help. We can only speculate so much without actually seeing the piano. An experienced tech will point out the problem.  You need to establish a relationship with a tech as a mentor. Otherwise you're just shooting in the dark.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 12:24
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

I am not quite sure how to libricate a hammer... It could well be part of the problem if you can let me know where to start.

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2020 07:16
From: Lucinda Strehlow
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

When you say the parts 'look okay' does that include that they also move freely? You say that the hammer is a 'little slow,' does it need to be lubricated or repinned? Same question for the whippen.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 21:13
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

I agree with Jon's advice. You cannot get everything you need from youtube videos and chat lists. 

And if you hope to convince someone to mentor you, you should be asking yourself what you have to offer them.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 15:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Get experienced help. We can only speculate so much without actually seeing the piano. An experienced tech will point out the problem.  You need to establish a relationship with a tech as a mentor. Otherwise you're just shooting in the dark.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 12:24
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

I am not quite sure how to libricate a hammer... It could well be part of the problem if you can let me know where to start.

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2020 07:16
From: Lucinda Strehlow
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

When you say the parts 'look okay' does that include that they also move freely? You say that the hammer is a 'little slow,' does it need to be lubricated or repinned? Same question for the whippen.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 21:13
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

I agree with Jon and Alan. Correcting symptoms without correctly identifying the problem exacerbates playing issues. Many symptoms may have multiple causes. Diagnosing the correct problem requires inspection and testing for proper function and regulation. 

There is no "one size fits all". We can offer possibilities, but until you understand the relationship between proper function and regulation, your best option lies with a mentor. 

Have you attended any Southeast  Seminars?

See Offers Here

------------------------------
"PTG - Expand your Horizon. Share the Vision"
"Promoting Quality Service for the World's Pianos"
"Good, Better, Best. Never let it rest. 'Til the good is better, and the better best."

George W.R. "Bill Davis", RPT, SERVP
2315 Rocky Mountain Rd NE
Marietta GA 30066-2113
CP: 770-778-6881
bill@pianoplace.net
www.pianoplace.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 15:27
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Get experienced help. We can only speculate so much without actually seeing the piano. An experienced tech will point out the problem.  You need to establish a relationship with a tech as a mentor. Otherwise you're just shooting in the dark.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 12:24
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

I am not quite sure how to libricate a hammer... It could well be part of the problem if you can let me know where to start.

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2020 07:16
From: Lucinda Strehlow
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

When you say the parts 'look okay' does that include that they also move freely? You say that the hammer is a 'little slow,' does it need to be lubricated or repinned? Same question for the whippen.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 21:13
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Since you said that you repinned th jack I assumed you knew what I meant.

Lubricate the center pins, where it pivots. NOT with oil, with a center pin lubricant sold by a piano supply house.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 12:24
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

I am not quite sure how to libricate a hammer... It could well be part of the problem if you can let me know where to start.

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2020 07:16
From: Lucinda Strehlow
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

When you say the parts 'look okay' does that include that they also move freely? You say that the hammer is a 'little slow,' does it need to be lubricated or repinned? Same question for the whippen.

------------------------------
Cindy Strehlow, RPT
Urbana, IL

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 21:13
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 9:13:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Adjust capstan for a smidgen of lost motion and so hammer is correctly at rest. That way your blow distance will be the same as other notes and the jack will have space to reset. Maybe?

Original Message:
Sent: 7/14/2020 7:08:00 PM
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hank said:  "One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back)."

This is your problem, Hank.  The hammer is not returning to the rest position because it is being held up by the jack, which make the blow distance shorter than the other hammers.   

Lower the capstan button under the wippen so that the hammer rests on the hammer rest rail. 




------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Are you a piano owner or tech/tuner in training. Everything you did does not address the problem. When was it made, are the hammer return springs white or brown?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-15-2020 00:42
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank said:  "One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back)."

This is your problem, Hank.  The hammer is not returning to the rest position because it is being held up by the jack, which make the blow distance shorter than the other hammers.

Lower the capstan button under the wippen so that the hammer rests on the hammer rest rail.




------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Not likely the weakness is because of a regulation issue unless there's something really out of wack but you probably don't need to look further than the blow distance and the let-off.  More likely it's the hammer and could be bad hammer string mating, the hammer has relatively deep string cuts and is now aligned so that the strings are hitting on the ridges of those cuts, someone over voiced the hammer.  

To determine: 
1. File the hammer and get the strike point smooth with not string cuts
2. Mate the hammers carefully to the strings.  
3. Do the same with the hammers on either side of that note
4. If the problem persists and the let-off point and blow distance are correct then it seems that the hammer is just too soft and you'll have to remedy that by voicing.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Or a broken key.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 04:21
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Good point.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 07:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Or a broken key.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 04:21
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Check for a weak or broken damper spring

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 11:07
From: David Love
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Good point.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 07:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Or a broken key.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 04:21
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

A faulty damper spring would not cause a weak tone. It would cause a lingering sound.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-17-2020 10:27
From: James Kelly
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Check for a weak or broken damper spring

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 11:07
From: David Love
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Good point.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 07:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Or a broken key.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 04:21
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hank,
Are you a technician (learning) or a knowledgeable piano owner?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2020 19:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

A faulty damper spring would not cause a weak tone. It would cause a lingering sound.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-17-2020 10:27
From: James Kelly
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Check for a weak or broken damper spring

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 11:07
From: David Love
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Good point.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 07:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Or a broken key.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 04:21
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Jon, he's a member of PTG. I think he needs to pay a more experienced RPT to help solve this.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2020 20:00
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank,
Are you a technician (learning) or a knowledgeable piano owner?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-26-2020 19:56
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

A faulty damper spring would not cause a weak tone. It would cause a lingering sound.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-17-2020 10:27
From: James Kelly
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Check for a weak or broken damper spring

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 11:07
From: David Love
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Good point.

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 07:05
From: Jon Page
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Or a broken key.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-16-2020 04:21
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Did you hold the end of the key down with left index while lifting up whip with other index imitating multiple blows from f to pp? If not, the problem may be the key itself is not fully returning causing blow distance irregularity. The key itself might need easing, balance keypin lubricated,, or weight added such as a jiffy lead. I always begin with the key itself when encountering this, the lesson for me came hard many years back. These days it is muscle memory.

------------------------------
Kevin Magill
Williamsburg VA
757-220-2420

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hank-
1) Fully inform us of the model, serial number and age of this piano.
2) Make a video of the problem hammers in motion and post it to this list.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Thanks to all again. 

This is a Yamaha P2, serial number E3472492

I bought it used but from a reputable used piano dealer in Berkeley, California

I had some success checking lost motion on the entire mid range section. The keys don't feel mushy anymore, but the notes 45 46... 50 still had no volume.

I decided to measure the blow distance, which is supposed to be 46 mm.

I thought I had already checked blow distance, and I had. But only in the bass.

What I discovered (literally) just now is that the bass hammers are SMALLER than the mid-range hammers.

That meant the blow distance in the mid range was much less thn 46 mm.

But the piano, which I have had about four years, came like this. To increase the blow distance in the mid-range I had to remove a quite thick piece of felt from  the hammer rest bar.

The rest bar has a single piece of felt on it, and is a single metal half-cylinder that runs under all the hammers, connects with three metalic hooks to the action and when fitted it fits the 'soft pedal' rod fits nicely into its slot.

The 'soft pedal' pushes all the hammers closer to the strings.

Now,I most certainly have not changed that bar or replaced the felt.

But why would Yamaha have done this? If some hammers need to be smaller, a reputable manufacturer like Yamaha would presumably provide a hammer rest bar with exchangeable felt--or three hammer rest bars, one for each section.

It was not easy to remove the felt from the mid section of the bar, but I did so, and it makes all the difference in terms of the volume of the mid range notes.

When I bought the piano, I knew nothing about what happens inside of one. It would never have occurred to me to check for a detail of this sort.

I am still baffled as to what is going on... could the used piano place have mistakenly put in the wrong hammer rest bar when they were reconditioning the piano?

h




















------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 19:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank-
1) Fully inform us of the model, serial number and age of this piano.
2) Make a video of the problem hammers in motion and post it to this list.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

The bass hammers are shorter in every upright piano because the strings of the bass section are closer the keyboard than the others.  It seems to me unlikely that it should have been necessary to remove felt from the hammer rest rail.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 22:15
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Thanks to all again.

This is a Yamaha P2, serial number E3472492

I bought it used but from a reputable used piano dealer in Berkeley, California

I had some success checking lost motion on the entire mid range section. The keys don't feel mushy anymore, but the notes 45 46... 50 still had no volume.

I decided to measure the blow distance, which is supposed to be 46 mm.

I thought I had already checked blow distance, and I had. But only in the bass.

What I discovered (literally) just now is that the bass hammers are SMALLER than the mid-range hammers.

That meant the blow distance in the mid range was much less thn 46 mm.

But the piano, which I have had about four years, came like this. To increase the blow distance in the mid-range I had to remove a quite thick piece of felt from  the hammer rest bar.

The rest bar has a single piece of felt on it, and is a single metal half-cylinder that runs under all the hammers, connects with three metalic hooks to the action and when fitted it fits the 'soft pedal' rod fits nicely into its slot.

The 'soft pedal' pushes all the hammers closer to the strings.

Now,I most certainly have not changed that bar or replaced the felt.

But why would Yamaha have done this? If some hammers need to be smaller, a reputable manufacturer like Yamaha would presumably provide a hammer rest bar with exchangeable felt--or three hammer rest bars, one for each section.

It was not easy to remove the felt from the mid section of the bar, but I did so, and it makes all the difference in terms of the volume of the mid range notes.

When I bought the piano, I knew nothing about what happens inside of one. It would never have occurred to me to check for a detail of this sort.

I am still baffled as to what is going on... could the used piano place have mistakenly put in the wrong hammer rest bar when they were reconditioning the piano?

h




















------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 19:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank-
1) Fully inform us of the model, serial number and age of this piano.
2) Make a video of the problem hammers in motion and post it to this list.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Henry-

Well, the Education Committee is developing a diagnostic protocol for the vertical action, and here is a situation in which systematic diagnosis would have been the best first step. It is almost always possible to diagnose the problem without changing or replacing action parts.

A systematic diagnosis of a vertical action problem begins at the front of the key. Is the key rubbing on the key slip? Does the front bushing grab on the front pin, maybe only after the key is pressed down? Is anything rubbing between the keys? Is the key broken? Is the key or the bushing tight at the balance rail pin? Has the key button come unglued? Is there something under the key or the back rail cloth that slows key return? Is the capstan dragging on the wippen cushion or rubbing against a neighbor?

All of these questions can be answered without changing anything in the action or regulation.  Yamaha actions had good continuity coming from the factory, and that should be considered as the starting point before altering anything. You have many neighbors to compare and you have not introduced further irregularity into the action.

You haven't said anything about the keys, so perhaps this is something to examine.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 22:15
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Thanks to all again.

This is a Yamaha P2, serial number E3472492

I bought it used but from a reputable used piano dealer in Berkeley, California

I had some success checking lost motion on the entire mid range section. The keys don't feel mushy anymore, but the notes 45 46... 50 still had no volume.

I decided to measure the blow distance, which is supposed to be 46 mm.

I thought I had already checked blow distance, and I had. But only in the bass.

What I discovered (literally) just now is that the bass hammers are SMALLER than the mid-range hammers.

That meant the blow distance in the mid range was much less thn 46 mm.

But the piano, which I have had about four years, came like this. To increase the blow distance in the mid-range I had to remove a quite thick piece of felt from  the hammer rest bar.

The rest bar has a single piece of felt on it, and is a single metal half-cylinder that runs under all the hammers, connects with three metalic hooks to the action and when fitted it fits the 'soft pedal' rod fits nicely into its slot.

The 'soft pedal' pushes all the hammers closer to the strings.

Now,I most certainly have not changed that bar or replaced the felt.

But why would Yamaha have done this? If some hammers need to be smaller, a reputable manufacturer like Yamaha would presumably provide a hammer rest bar with exchangeable felt--or three hammer rest bars, one for each section.

It was not easy to remove the felt from the mid section of the bar, but I did so, and it makes all the difference in terms of the volume of the mid range notes.

When I bought the piano, I knew nothing about what happens inside of one. It would never have occurred to me to check for a detail of this sort.

I am still baffled as to what is going on... could the used piano place have mistakenly put in the wrong hammer rest bar when they were reconditioning the piano?

h




















------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 19:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank-
1) Fully inform us of the model, serial number and age of this piano.
2) Make a video of the problem hammers in motion and post it to this list.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Unless you've got a flat strung, not overstrung, piano of course the bass hammers are smaller. Did you measure blow distance in both sections of hammers or did you just presume.

"I decided to measure the blow distance, which is supposed to be 46 mm.

I thought I had already checked blow distance, and I had. But only in the bass.

What I discovered (literally) just now is that the bass hammers are SMALLER than the mid-range hammers.

That meant the blow distance in the mid range was much less thn 46 mm.

But the piano, which I have had about four years, came like this. To increase the blow distance in the mid-range I had to remove a quite thick piece of felt from  the hammer rest bar"

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 22:15
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Thanks to all again.

This is a Yamaha P2, serial number E3472492

I bought it used but from a reputable used piano dealer in Berkeley, California

I had some success checking lost motion on the entire mid range section. The keys don't feel mushy anymore, but the notes 45 46... 50 still had no volume.

I decided to measure the blow distance, which is supposed to be 46 mm.

I thought I had already checked blow distance, and I had. But only in the bass.

What I discovered (literally) just now is that the bass hammers are SMALLER than the mid-range hammers.

That meant the blow distance in the mid range was much less thn 46 mm.

But the piano, which I have had about four years, came like this. To increase the blow distance in the mid-range I had to remove a quite thick piece of felt from  the hammer rest bar.

The rest bar has a single piece of felt on it, and is a single metal half-cylinder that runs under all the hammers, connects with three metalic hooks to the action and when fitted it fits the 'soft pedal' rod fits nicely into its slot.

The 'soft pedal' pushes all the hammers closer to the strings.

Now,I most certainly have not changed that bar or replaced the felt.

But why would Yamaha have done this? If some hammers need to be smaller, a reputable manufacturer like Yamaha would presumably provide a hammer rest bar with exchangeable felt--or three hammer rest bars, one for each section.

It was not easy to remove the felt from the mid section of the bar, but I did so, and it makes all the difference in terms of the volume of the mid range notes.

When I bought the piano, I knew nothing about what happens inside of one. It would never have occurred to me to check for a detail of this sort.

I am still baffled as to what is going on... could the used piano place have mistakenly put in the wrong hammer rest bar when they were reconditioning the piano?

h




















------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 19:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank-
1) Fully inform us of the model, serial number and age of this piano.
2) Make a video of the problem hammers in motion and post it to this list.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hank,

I've just briefly read over this thread. To me, it sounds like your piano is suffering from excessive humidity. I would suggest getting a bottle of ProTek CLP and an dropper and applying a drop or two to each of the flanges in the notes affected. No more than a drop or two per flange, unless you see the ProTek making process and think it needs more after you've worked the parts a bit. 

If this doesn't work, a drop or two won't hurt anything. If this is the problem, you should see results. Let us know if this helps.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(805) 315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 22:15
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Thanks to all again.

This is a Yamaha P2, serial number E3472492

I bought it used but from a reputable used piano dealer in Berkeley, California

I had some success checking lost motion on the entire mid range section. The keys don't feel mushy anymore, but the notes 45 46... 50 still had no volume.

I decided to measure the blow distance, which is supposed to be 46 mm.

I thought I had already checked blow distance, and I had. But only in the bass.

What I discovered (literally) just now is that the bass hammers are SMALLER than the mid-range hammers.

That meant the blow distance in the mid range was much less thn 46 mm.

But the piano, which I have had about four years, came like this. To increase the blow distance in the mid-range I had to remove a quite thick piece of felt from  the hammer rest bar.

The rest bar has a single piece of felt on it, and is a single metal half-cylinder that runs under all the hammers, connects with three metalic hooks to the action and when fitted it fits the 'soft pedal' rod fits nicely into its slot.

The 'soft pedal' pushes all the hammers closer to the strings.

Now,I most certainly have not changed that bar or replaced the felt.

But why would Yamaha have done this? If some hammers need to be smaller, a reputable manufacturer like Yamaha would presumably provide a hammer rest bar with exchangeable felt--or three hammer rest bars, one for each section.

It was not easy to remove the felt from the mid section of the bar, but I did so, and it makes all the difference in terms of the volume of the mid range notes.

When I bought the piano, I knew nothing about what happens inside of one. It would never have occurred to me to check for a detail of this sort.

I am still baffled as to what is going on... could the used piano place have mistakenly put in the wrong hammer rest bar when they were reconditioning the piano?

h




















------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]

Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2020 19:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

Hank-
1) Fully inform us of the model, serial number and age of this piano.
2) Make a video of the problem hammers in motion and post it to this list.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------

Hello Hank,
You might benefit from PTG's recently launched Mentorship program. If you go to the website you will find a list of mentors from all over the world who are ready and willing to help you. Most of them can help you remotely if you have a way to show them the problem. Many of the ideas you have received so far are good suggestions, but without actually seeing the piano none of us can be sure we are aiming at the right problem. Just shots in the dark. All of us can can use some mentoring now and again. 

On the PTG Home page sign in as a member. Scroll down the home page and click on Technician Education. That will take you to the Education Hub where you'll find  the Mentorship Program in addition to a ton of other technical resources. Give it a try. 

~ jeannie 

------------------------------
Jeannie Grassi, RPT
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-14-2020 19:08
From: Henry Mooney
Subject: Key 44 on Yamaha upright sounds weak

the middle e-natural on my piano, no matter what i do with it, sounds weak (that is, weaker than the previous note I played).

I cannot see any obvious problem. The jack functions, although it is a little slow to return to its position after the note sounds.

Try as I will, I cannot figure out why that is happening.

I have tried the following:

replaced the jack spring;

replaced the pin in the flange that holds the lower end of the jack;

TRIED to put in a whole new whippen, but the whippen I received was a different shape from the one I'm replacing, even though it was listed as a 'Yamaha type' shippen;

I have taken the action completely out and looked carefully at the whippen, jack, etc, and it all looks okay.

One clue: the actual hammer itself does not return fully back to its rest position (that is, it is as though the jack itself was too long and stopping the hammer but from coming all the way back).

But by itself outside of the piano, the jack, flange, spring all look and act normal. Only when the action is back in the piano does this problem arise.

This makes it hard to play with any real musicality because whenever I have to play an e-natural, it either sounds really weak, or there is a delay between the previous note and the e-natural.

Even if the solution is to get the correct whippen and install it, I still would like to know what is wrong with the current whippen.

I could buy and install a new hammer, I guess, but the existing hammer also looks okay.

suggestions?

------------------------------
Hank Mooney
San Francisco CA
415-640-2731
[Hank]
------------------------------