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New Essex - Action Problems

  • 1.  New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-11-2019 13:33
    Just bought a brand new Essex 123 and am having problem with the action. 

    When repeating a key I've just played, it doesn't "rebound" in time to it's original position so the second, third time you press it, the sound is either non-existent or muted. The sensation is that the keys are "sticking". This happens with many keys, and not all the time.

    I'm writing because I'm concerned about the technician's response and want to validate it. I haven't found anything on google to substantiate his claim. 

    The technician said this problem is with all uprights, and is not specific to any brand or style, because 30-40 years ago across the piano industry, the action was redesigned for uprights and it made this problem more noticeable and worse (something about the spring design changing).

    He said either I need to buy a grand (which doesn't have these problems) or I need to switch to a piano that is 30-40 years old. Or I have to lift my fingers up quicker (release the key quicker) before replaying it. 

    The thing is, I've played over 20 different uprights in my lifetime and have never had this problem before. As well, it doesn't make sense that an entire industry would change something that makes the action worse, and they haven't since changed it back or improved it. I have a hard time believe an entire world of pianists would change their playing technique to accommodate a design flaw. 

    Has anyone else heard of this? Or can substantiate this technician's opinion? Or do you have any other ideas? I'm concerned it may be specific to the Essex.  

    Appreciate any thoughts!



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    Kara Sherwin
    Edmonton AB

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  • 2.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-11-2019 13:40

    Kara,

                  I do not believe that this is accurate. The action in that piano is a Swander type action and they can be finicky but when adjusted properly they can perform quite well. I suggest that a technician check the blow distance for the hammers and once adjusted also adjust the capstan for lost motion. The jack must clear (1mm gap) the hammer butt. When this happens you will have the clearance necessary for normal repetition.

     

    Greg

     

    Greg's Piano Forte

    Greg Newell

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  • 3.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2019 13:45
    Kara

    In general, the main difference between the action of an upright piano and a grand piano is the repetition. The way the action of an upright action is designed, the key has to come back up to what we refer to as "rest position", which is all the way up, level with the neighboring key. Some uprights will allow you to cheat a little, but not very much. 

    One thing the technician can do is increase what we call "lost motion". The other is to reduce friction on all moving parts. Other than that, I'm sorry to say that your technician is more or less right.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 4.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-11-2019 14:19
    Retro-fit a Fandrich Action.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 5.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2019 15:26
    Keep the piano. Change the technician.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 6.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2019 15:34

    I second Karl's opinion. I've read a lot of technical books and other historical documents relating to the piano, and I've never heard any of the claims your current technician is making. Without seeing the piano in person, I'd say you need to hire a different technician, preferably on who has passed the Registered Piano Technician exams. 


    Yes, as a general rule uprights do not repeat as quickly as grands do. But the problem you're describing does not seem to me to be a matter of repetition, but rather of getting the key to play in the first place. If changing technicians does not solve your issue, I'd be surprised. Just make sure your new technician has not been trained by your current one. 


    Best of luck,



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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  • 7.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-11-2019 21:39
    Easy the keys

    Alexander Brusilovsky




  • 8.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Member
    Posted 10-12-2019 11:26
    Yes, ease the keys. You always start with making the keys work properly.
    In these pianos the keys should move smoothly to their rest position when the action is out. I push the key and let it loose. It should move the entire distance of the stroke without a hesitation. If it is too well balanced then put a coin on one end so you can SEE the movement. Usually it's the front rail. It came from a factory. Clean the bushings of the problem ones. 
    The beauty of this way is you can see on old pianos the whites don't go all the way down when the ivory tops were replaced without cutting them to the right height. The punching under the sharps gets in the way if they left the sharps high. If they lowered the sharps the sharps bury between the whites. 





  • 9.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2019 20:25
    ALL uprights require that you allow the key to return completely to its rest position before you can play that note again. This is nothing new. Your description sounds like the piano only requires some minor regulation. Perhaps, as Wim suggests, adding a small amount of lost motion will be sufficient. That would allow the jack to return to its rest position not necessarily more quickly, but if it is being prevented from returning because of insufficient lost motion then it would allow it to return to its rest position more efficiently. 

    Being an Essex, the piano was actually manufactured by Young Chang. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. But being a new Essex means you probably purchased the piano from a Steinway dealer. That probably means that that dealer sent out a Steinway approved technician to work on your Essex upright. Resisting the urge to comment here, I must nevertheless mention all this as a warning to not just casually bring in some non-Steinway approved tech, RPT or not, to do the minor regulation you require. Steinway will absolutely give you a tough time if they find out about it.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 10.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-11-2019 20:50
    If the piano is under warranty, you should complain to Steinway. 

    The Euro/Asian style upright action differs from the old standard American upright action in that the hammer return spring is weaker and sometimes the jack springs are weaker. This makes them more sensitive to several subtle but significant factors involving center of gravity and inertia properties of the action components.

    The first to understand is the center of gravity, CG, of the hammer assembly. Modern pianos are using heavier hammers than older pianos and this shifts the CG closer to string plane than when they were first designed which means some Euro/Asian uprights have such a poor CG in the scale portion above the overstrung section that the hammers want to stay against the string. Add to this the weaker hammer return spring and the hammer has a tendency to stay up near the string too long. Thus older actions are different.

    The second is that the keystick itself could have return problems because the Euro/Asian upright action that is fitted to taller verticals has a heavier capstan arrangement than the standard American upright, and some makers adjust the heavier touch this produces by adding weight to the front of the key. This adds inertia to the keystick which slows key return.

    The third one is the strength of the jack spring. Jack springs are pushing back on the key at all times and if it is too weak the return speed of the key can be too slow.

    Then the action itself could have been placed a little too far from the string plane than the design intended and this will worsen the hammer CG issue.

    So some of these elements can combine together in a particular piano to tip it over into an unusable configuration. Most technicians are not able to track these elements down and many are not even aware of them. Even inside piano factories!

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 11.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2019 20:22
    Mr. Sykes wrote "Being an Essex, the piano was actually manufactured by Young Chang."

    Nope. Essex has been made in China by someone other than YC for at least the last 5 or 6 years.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 12.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Member
    Posted 10-11-2019 20:55
    Go back to the dealer you bought it from and try the same piano on the floor which should be properly prepped and do everything you expect. Then complain that yours is not playing the same on the floor and you want it fixed. A 30-40 year old piano is not the solution nor is getting a grand. There is no reason the piano should be hanging up as you describe unless the regulation is not up to par (blow, lost motion, let-off, backchecking ) the keys also may need a little easing due to humidity swelling the balance rail hole or the felts are too tight. Definitely work with Steinway to get another tech out there and be mindful of what you need to do to keep the piano in warranty. IF the piano is defective in any way they should make it right. Write down the notes /key you are having problems with so that they can be examined more closely.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 13.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-11-2019 21:17
    And perhaps finally ask your technician if he's a member of PTG and has read this thread? It would actually be interesting to hear his point of view here and his responses to advice given ;-)

    Recently I came across a supposedly eminent piano technician working for a major opera house and concert halls who had changed a set of Steinway hammers who hadn't actually come across the necessary technique of needle voicing to tone the hammers nor mapping the strings so that he could position the hammers correctly out of the instrument. Supposed and especially self-proclaimed experts often have remarkable gaps in their knowledge - and the magic of PTG is the willingness of so many freely to share.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 14.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2019 00:01
    Typically, if notes are not sounding or sounding weaker when repeating on a new piano the problem is due either to compression of felt on the hammer rest rail or tight key bushings. Both of these problems are not unusual on new pianos and are Warrantee issues that should be easily fixed at no cost by the dealer. As mentioned, if you go back to the dealer and try their floor model and it doesn't have these problems, then one way or the other the dealer needs to fix your piano. 
    Essex pianos are sold at a premium for their class and should play well. 
    I don't think you got good advice from the first technician.
    Often, this repetition problem shows up when playing the piano softly and slowly, you don't need a grand piano to play softly and slowly.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 15.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-12-2019 20:33
    Is Essex a Pearl River now?  I lose track of these things.

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    Ted Rohde
    Central Illinois
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  • 16.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-14-2019 07:02
    Yes, Essex has been made by PR for quite some time now. YC only made them for a very short time.

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    Charles Rempel
    Dampp-Chaser Corporation
    Hendersonville NC
    828-692-8271
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  • 17.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2019 01:58
    What you describing sounds to me like poor jack return.

    I would recommend that you first check the basics; the keys MUST be free and not binding, the jacks should all be loose (a couple of drops of lubricant might help), jack springs should be adequate and regulation should be to specifications.
    Some manufacturers make the capstan adjustment so high that hammers slightly raise off the hammer rest rail to allow for settling during break-in.  The capstans should all be adjusted for a tiny amount of "lost motion" (pulling back on the hammer rest rail should allow all hammers to slightly follow the rest rail).  Back checking should be to factory specifications or about 5/8 inch (about a finger's thickness).  Key height and dip should be to factory specifications.

    This is all normal "dealer prep", but many (if not most) dealers wold probably prefer to minimize prep for less expensive new pianos, perhaps to push some customers into more expensive models.


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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 18.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Posted 10-12-2019 08:12
    This is the most common problem with newly delivered, recently uncrated vertical pianos.
    As Blaine said, the capstans are set a little high in the factory to give room for parts to settle.
    Or another way to read it is to say the blow distance is a little long.
    The owner can test this by gradually pressing the left pedal while playing to see if the problem disappears.
    An experienced technician can probably fix this in 10 minutes, and the dealer should have a technician who is familiar with this.
    The other common problem with new verticals is settling or raising of the keybed after delivery. This will change the relation of keydip to blow distance, and can also cause wholesale action problems. It can be quickly fixed by adjusting the balance rail height (not each individual key!)

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 19.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-12-2019 23:31

    A number of Essex pianos I have worked on – both grand and vertical – have had action centers that got tight over time.  In one grand I tuned yearly for a while I found that each year a few were so tight that they didn't return all the way to their resting position, so I repinned them.  One year I found a lot and suggested we just do all the hammer centers, and got approval from Steinway to make it a warranty job.

     

    I recently tuned a brand new Essex 123 and it worked nicely.  The repetition was fine, and my impression of it overall was that it's a decent piano. 

     

    Tight centers was a problem that in other pianos developed over time, and I have found it to be common in certain other brands built in Asia.  But the piano mentioned in this post is brand new.  I have found a lot of imported vertical pianos to have no lost motion at all, with the butts pretty much resting on the jacks.  But because of the jack spring tension and probably other factors these pianos generally work fine, with no repetition problems, especially Yamahas and Kawais.  If I really try, by releasing the key very slowly, I can get the jack to hang up and the note doesn't repeat well, or at all.  But that's not how you normally play a piano. 

     

    Perhaps in this piano having as similar factory regulation doesn't work, just because of the particulars of the action design, spring tensions, etc.  So it's quite possible that simply regulating the lost motion in this Essex will fix the problem.  Of course there are other possibilities, as a lot of you have covered so far.

     

    Looking forward to hearing how this is resolved.






  • 20.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Member
    Posted 10-13-2019 11:16
    I thought Kawai doesn't have lost motion.

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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
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  • 21.  RE: New Essex - Action Problems

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2019 01:59
    Action centers that become tighter sounds suspiciously like the old Young Chang problem.

    Others may have more knowledge or experience than me but I often found action centers that became tighter or required frequent lubrication had traces of glue on the pins when I extracted them.  I suspect it was a consequence of a manufacturing process that left glue on the bearing portion of the felt (wasn't there a microwave process that melted the glue?).

    If you repin look at the pins with a good hand lens or microscope and see if there are glue traces.  If so you can only repin, preferably with a small amount of reaming to remove any remaining glue.

    Lubricating will only work temporarily in this case.

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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