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Use it as a tool

  • 1.  Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-17-2021 08:56
    I just heard a report on Tesla being under investigation for their autodriver program. Gio Benitez said that there are some people who are relying on the Autodriver to do all the work of driving, and not paying attention to the where they are going, or what is happening around them. At one point he said, "autodrivers should be used as a tool, not to be relied on to do the whole driving".

    Sounds familiar....

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
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  • 2.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-17-2021 11:26
    Wim -
    The association is valid, but the analogy quickly takes up residence in the absurd.  If to focus on the ideas surrounding tuning, then the conversations/debates have had plenty to work with without this fleeting connection.  If, on the other hand, you wanted to go deeper into the fundamental contradictions surrounding the protocols of self-driving technology, then our new, crack Communications Task Group would probably be quick to weigh in, either to mark it as inappropriate or to suggest some names for you to create a new Self-Driving Technolgy community.

    But the fact that your brain is still making such connections is probably a good thing, now that you're not eating coconuts every day.

    Regards -

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 3.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-17-2021 11:35
    I thought the analogy was brilliant...my personal opinion only. 😜

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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
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  • 4.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 15:05
    So David,
    You’re insinuating that coconuts are good for brain health? Delicious!

    I’m generally more trusting of our sensory endowments as nature provides us than of technology that purports to elevate us above the toil of our material existence, however, when the majority of drivers I see are either looking down at their phones, or texting, or driving with one hand because the other is holding a phone, I can see the great utility in self-driving cars. And maybe the car could send the human “driver” a text just before getting in a wreck. Might get their attention that way.

    Jumbo jet airplanes are 100% operated by computer control. The only time pilots turn off autopilot is to practice emergency landings. It’s even illegal in some airspaces to fly manually above a certain altitude. What does that say about relying on humans’ attention and awareness of their surroundings?

    Joe Wiencek
    NYC




  • 5.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 17:39
    On the opposite side of that coin, would you want a child who has never driven behind the wheel in an autonomous vehicle? Many ship captains must prove their abilities with an old style ship, navagating with the stars, etc, before they are allowed in a modern ship with modern technology. Pilots must go through rigorous training before they are allowed in the cockpit as a captain. If a trained pilot, ship captain, or car driver weren't important, any child could replace them. Electronics are tools. Knowing how to use them is being a professional. Knowing how to work without them is another level of expertise. It's not always necessary, but it sure is encouraging and inspiring.

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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 18:41
    Joe,
    My apologies.  I meant no disparagement of coconuts... I have some every day.  It was my 'too-circuitous' way of wondering whether Wim's change of address was temporary or otherwise, however, as I discovered (just now), coconuts grow in Florida, as well as Hawaii, so, ultimately  as useless a comparison (in my opinion) as was the one drawn between self-driving tech and ETD's.
    Maggie has written again, as I'm doing so here, but perhaps I can incorporate my discomfort with those ideas within this post.
    There are multiple problems with this thread.  We don't need to reach out to some extremely generalized commonality to make a case for ETD's or not.  To draw on the still nascent  self-driving technology is absurd, as, for the most part, it still doesn't exist, however, in any case, the objectives of the ETD technology that is currently at our disposal is to help us in carrying out a task, not to eliminate us from the taskj.   Dispite what is currently being proposed, about the 'interactiveness' of 'self-drive' tech, the ultimate objective is to be reliable enough to warrant our putting our faith in the device.

    It's true, there are times when driving can be drudgerous, but most of us who grew up driving are not clamoring to have that experience taken away from us, nor are we willing to subscribe to the idea that WE are unreliable to the point where we need to be replaced by tech.    I straight out don't understand what the experience is, of being a non-driving driver, who is supposed to be ready to take control in an instant.
    Maybe we need to start with Virtual Back-Seat Driving technology.

    Joe - text woudn't work... it would have to be a pre-recorded (or synthesized) scream.

    Maggie asks: would you want a child who has never driven behind the wheel in an autonomous vehicle?

    Well, if the vehicle was truly autonomous, I'd have to ask - what's the difference?   Assuming there's enough safety built in to keep the young'un from sabotaging the vehicle, or opening a door, what is it that any occupant (of a fully autonomous vehicle) wouldl be expected to do.  Call 911?

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 7.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 18:56
    David wrote: "Well, if the vehicle was truly autonomous, I'd have to ask - what's the difference?"

    Excellent point!!! My bad. I should have been more specific regarding the original post that referred to partially autonomous vehicles, not fully autonomous ones.

    To David: If you think I'm taking this analogy to deep levels or extremely literally, you'd be mistaken. If you look at it superficially, it makes a good point. Parce it up all you want if you want to be a party pooper. :-p  And don't forget to NOT take me too seriously. ;-) 


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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Posted 08-18-2021 20:13
    Seems to me we're missing the big point here. If I tune a piano electronically and it doesn't turn out too good, no one dies. (Okay, maybe their ears suffer a bit...) For the plane, it's highly likely that people will die if they crash. Right now, other than a few Teslas, ALL car crashes are due to human error. And THAT is why computers are involved, to avoid human error.😏🤔🤨

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    PianoMeter, TuneLab & OnlyPure user
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  • 9.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 20:38
    Scott! Touché! It goes both ways, doesn't it. ;-)


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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 23:05
    Scott's first point was one I made in one of my unsent posts, however I'm not sure about this:
    ALL car crashes are due to human error. And THAT is why computers are involved, to avoid human error.😏🤔🤨

    What is the 'take-away' from this statement?   I can't even formulate a clarifying question.  Humans are highly ingenious organisms.   They will always find ways of introducing a human error factor.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 11.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 23:30
    I'm sorry, but all of you are missing the point.

    The Tesla story came up because there are some drivers who were allowing the autodriving feature to do ALL of the driving, and not paying attention to what was going on around them.  The similarity with those Tesla drivers and piano tuners who allow the ETD to do all the work, is that both are not paying attention to what else is going around them. The point I was trying to make is in both cases the autodriver and the ETD are tools to be used to do the work by competent driver/tuners,

    BTW, pilots who use computers to fly and even land a plane, are paying very close attention to what is going on. As do ship captains.

    And David, FWIW, I don't like cocunuts or coconut water.

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 23:35
    I thought that point was obvious. It was obvious to me, anyway. It got it! That's why I liked it. 😊

    I don't like coconut water, either. 😂

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-18-2021 23:47
    Maggie

    Yes, you did get my point. Pehaps only "sensible" people get it.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-19-2021 01:15
    Now Wimmy -
    Why is "sensible" in quotation marks?  Is that in lieu of a winking or smily emogee?  Or are you serious?
    A couple of housekeeping items first:
    - As I've previouslty responded to Jow Weincek, myt reference to coconuts was my clumsily oblique way of noting your change of address.   For the record, I don't drink coconut water but use shredded/chopped coconut in my oatmea.
    - As I've shared wit Maggie, in the past, and will do so now:  if you have to resort to claiming that something is 'obvious', you've lost the arguement.  If I'm proposing that there is some nuance to be parced, it's not obvious.

    If the conversation is to be about the effective use of ETD's in our work, then that had been and will continue to be had.  While you may have had a momentary  associative epiphany, it is not a productive analogy, in the larger conversation.  The subject of self-driving vehicles is contencious as is... it would not be appropriate for this list, though I bet we could make a case for a spot in one of the other Communities, or make yet another new one.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-19-2021 08:03
    David - Ah, I see. Welp, since I resorted to claiming that something here is obvious, I have lost the argument. I concede. Dun!  

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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Member
    Posted 08-19-2021 09:04
    I recently purchased a 2021 Rav 4 Prime w/ Lane Assist. Lane Assist is annoying. The steering wheel nudges each way to keep the car centered. Changing lanes is annoying too. I keep it off. The radar aspect for Cruise Control will maintain a specified distance from the vehicle in front of you, I use that.

    I rely on the VT for tuning but have developed a stretch by listening to the finished tuning and tweaking the stretch parameters, refining it over the years.  I can rely on the VT now without hesitation. For you lucky VT users, Page Universal 2.6 is available thru the VT Forum.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Posted 08-19-2021 10:05
    Haha...Jon on first reading "I rely on the VT for tuning " I thought what the hell has Vermont got to do with it until I remembered Veri Tuner.
    re.cars now my  VT mileage is more leisurely than  decades  in Greater Boston  we lease new Subaru models and stay below the mileage threshold and yes some annoying computerized prompts  .
    www.snowpianos.com

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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
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  • 18.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Posted 08-19-2021 18:01
    Well, not wishing to offend anyone let me simply say: "ETD's are nice!  Ears are nice!  I like both!"   Having said that, however I can say that each are capable of addressing roles that the other cannot.  ETD's, for instance are rather useless to a blind piano tuner.  Ears, however, give that same tuner a definite advantage.   On the flip side of the coin --- Ears are rather useless to a deaf piano tuner.  That tuner would, however gain great benefit from an ETD.

    So I guess my point is that we each have our preferences and handicaps.  Ears and ETD's are both useful tools and I'm happy that they are both available to me.

    So having made my point, I hope my point is clear and that I have not confused anyone's points among the myriad of interesting points found here in an otherwise rather "pointless" conversation.   (Forgive me if I'm being to "pointed". )

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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
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  • 19.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-19-2021 21:26
    Timothy -
    Had you left out your last sentence - "So, having made myt point...", you would have accomplished your intitial hope of "not wishing to offend anyone...",  It was unnecessary to critique the conversation as 'pointless', whether true or not, unless that was your point.

    In fact, you raise an interesting question:  once we actually have 'self-driving' cars, would they be available to both blind AND deaf piano tuners?
    Now THERE:S a conversation.

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Posted 08-19-2021 21:34
    Oh well.  Hope dashed.  Point taken.  Sometimes ya gist can't please people.

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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
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  • 21.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-19-2021 22:12
    Hello Timothy -
    Just to be clear, what hope was it that was dashed?  I've been simply conveying that I didn't think the analogy drawn between the use of ETD's and self-driving cars was apt.  This pointless conversation was never intended as a critical discussion about aural or electronioc tuning.
    Unfortunately, as I re-read your post, I realized that, in fact, your own formulation with regard to blilnd and deaf tuners doesn't quite work out either, in that the use of such device by a totally deaf individual would be equivalent to the inattentive (or unconcious) driver.  As was previously pointed out, however, the consequences of a mishap are significantly more dire in one instance than the other.

    Don't give up. It's just a conversation

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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  • 22.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-19-2021 22:32
    I will not buy a vehicle that automatically interferes with my driving judgment. I also will not put one body part inside an autonomous vehicle. I also do not and will not use an ETD unless absolutely necessary.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 23.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-19-2021 22:36
    Now the real question looms- how do blind or deaf piano tuners perceive coconut flavor? And if they are inattentively operating a self-driving car at the same time, how will that affect the quality of their next tuning?

    Wim and Maggie- no worries, you’re excused from the survey!

    Joe Wiencek




  • 24.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-20-2021 02:05
    This thread is starting to make me think that people don't have enough work. 





  • 25.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-20-2021 09:00
    I'm retired. lol

    ------------------------------
    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    St. Augustine, FL 32095
    Tnrwim@aol.com
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-20-2021 11:30
    Congratulations Wim. You got me started with this group and hosted many good meetings. Thank you for your service. Paul


  • 27.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-20-2021 12:21
    Thanks Paul.

    I’m giving a one day seminar in St Louis at the end of September. You should get a notice soon. Look forward to see you then.

    Wim.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 28.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Posted 08-20-2021 20:49
    Oh David, why do we need clarity?   In the midst of a verbal free-for-all over ETD's, coconuts, ears, self-driving cars, blind and deaf piano tuners, and the validity of various analogies; I submit that "clarity" is much over-rated.  I much prefer murkiness.   The points and counterpoints found herein have become so "pointed" that the situation/conversation has become much too "prickly".

    But--- in the interest of detente, I will attempt to respond to your query: "what hope was it that was dashed?"
    You wrote:  "Had you left out your last sentence - "So, having made my point...", you would have accomplished your intitial hope of "not wishing to offend anyone...",

    Hope dashed.  I'm devastated.  That you were offended by my attempt to "not offend" anyone has COMPLETELY ruined my week!  I will probably lose sleep over it tonight.  I may even be forced to seek counseling again.  The last time I offended anyone, it took me six months to recover.   Please accept my deepest apologies and condolences for having offended you in my attempt to not offend anyone.   I am so very deeply sorry.

    --- Tim

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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
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  • 29.  RE: Use it as a tool

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-21-2021 11:11
    Lol!

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------