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Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

  • 1.  Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-13-2019 13:22
    I've been handling a tuning lever for thirty five years but have been mainly monogamous tuning mainly instruments for concerts at home and for friends I know. However on account of being known for my application of unequal temperament as a universally valid alternative to modern tuning, friends have enthused to friends and I'm starting to consort therefore with strange instruments in the wild. Worse, there seems to be a shortage of competent technicians in some places and as a result I'm meeting some instruments which haven't had appropriate love for some time and am now exposed to the hazards of promiscuity among pianos.

    Not having suffered braking strings in all my time, the past two days have shocked me. A Petrof II grand in a cold church, rather hot in the summer, bass string, then a 1910 Ruch baby grand, two bass strings. The latter however had been not tuned for such a time that the kinks through the agreffs were obstructing smooth flow preventing micro adjustment and requiring one to let down the string and pull it up to pitch exactly in one movement. (Do others use such a technique?) The Petrof tended in that direction.  Why would there be brittleness just upon the entry to the tuning pin coils?

    Then the next day a Steinway A in apparently superlative condition did the same on me, but on middle D rather than the bass. Luckily there was enough spare in the coils on the other pin to make enough length to wind onto the other pin. But this instrument was a shock, making me wonder despite my long experience without a hitch whether there's something inadvisable in my tuning hammer technique. It was most unnerving, two instruments for which it was less of a surprise but on a good Steinway an eventuality which was shocking - particularly as the instrument's owner was looking on.

    Best wishes 

    David P 


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



  • 2.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-13-2019 22:32
    David,

    Sometimes stuff just happens. I wouldn't get worried about it. However there's little harm in lubing bearing points as a prophylactic.  I do it routinely. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 3.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Member
    Posted 02-13-2019 22:53
    if i read the post correctly you had never broken a string in 30 years ? now you are on a roll .

     remember this phrase 'strings break-tuners don't break strings " 

     there are/will be times when you just put your tuning lever on a tuning pin and the string just pops like a balloon getting popped with a needle. metal fatigue, rust, corrosion, tension plus the angle at which the string exits the coil are all contributors to a string giving out. of course there are other things like temperature, humidity, wire quality, coil height, pin tightness, flag-poling , poor string bearing, kinks,

    i think 30 years has to be some type of record... my advice is fuhgetaboutit













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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 4.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Member
    Posted 02-14-2019 09:57
    The wire doesn't slide because of high friction at the agraffe. Then the length of wire between the pin and the agraffe is what goes up in tension and rather quickly. Lube the agraffe or use a hammer shank to encourage the wire to move through the hole the first time.
    I disagree, tuners break wires because they don't understand technique and other minor details. Many wires were ready to break and it's not your fault all the time.
    One detail I can think of is having the hammer handle pointing more to the side of the piano instead of at the tail. If the pins are loose and the pin easily flagpoles,, as you pull, the pin flexes towards the front and the tension spikes sometimes 30 cents or more past pitch. 
    Wire will break for whatever reason and so knowing how to tie a knot and order a new string is a must for a tuner. 





  • 5.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-14-2019 10:42
    Peter - thanks so much for your reassurance.

    When four strings on three instruments in two days break I really did wonder. . . . The odd thing was that all four strings weren't at a bearing point but were right at the entry to the coil on the pins.

    Lubing bearing points is something I've done in the past but taking a bottle of Protek and an aerosol of silicone isn't something one can do on a plane nowadays. 

    Carrying my basic tuning hammer and felts was bad enough in hand luggage - luckily in England they looked and simply asked me if tuning pianos was what I do but coming back from France they didn't know what a Steinway was. Luckily Easyjet in Europe have a "Hands Free" facility so that one can put hand luggage in the hold without having to pay painful amounts for hold luggage.

    Any thoughts of anyone on the phenomenon of breakage on the entry to the tuning pin would be really helpful.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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  • 6.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 03:37
    I don't recommend applying string lube on wound strings as it can migrate into the coils causing problems.

    In cases where you suspect fragile strings - or just when you want to be extra careful, I recommend generously dropping the pitch before pulling it up.  

    I like to "polish" the contact points with enough pitch drop to clean off some of the corrosion before pulling strings up to pitch (and I go right up to pitch or even a bit above - let em break).

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 7.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-14-2019 04:19
    Applying a lubricant to counter bearings helps the tuning process. It reduces the torsion in the pin due to decreased friction which reduces excessive pin manipulation. Applying lube to terminations also reduces friction, applying a trace amount on bass terminations with a brush does not have the liquid migrate to the windings.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 8.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-14-2019 13:33
    Blaine - thanks so much for your help and experience which is most reassuring because it's exactly what I've been in the habit of doing.

    In cases where you suspect fragile strings - or just when you want to be extra careful, I recommend generously dropping the pitch before pulling it up.  I like to "polish" the contact points with enough pitch drop to clean off some of the corrosion before pulling strings up to pitch (and I go right up to pitch or even a bit above - let em break).  

    It was in the action of letting the string down slightly that the Steinway string broke and it's that which confused me.

    Some years ago an experienced friend told me that I should always take the string up rather than letting down, and seeing danger in that I've ignored his advice stubbornly. The habit of letting the string down slightly has saved me on a number of occasions where I've ended up with the hammer on the wrong pin.

    In my original post, this thread being about specific breakage at the entry to the tuning pin coil, I ignored an occasion where I tuned a friend's 100 year old Ebach grand and strings broke because the cause was particularly obvious. The strings were original and the angle secured by the agraffes between the sounding length and the pull-up length to the tuning pin was ridiculously sharp, repeated tunings causing metal fatigue by bending of the wire, and if untuned for years, a kink in the wire needing careful massaging out but the metal fatigue won on many.

    It was on that instrument that I learned the technique of letting the string down and pulling it up only during vibration and to pitch exactly, no fine tuning being possible.

    Both the modern Petrof II in the cold church and, worse, the 110 year old Ruch which had been stored in a garage at the top of a mountain both displayed a similar characteristic.

    Whilst accepting the challenge of "exciting" pianos, the delight on the faces of all the owners of having working instruments again capable of sound beautiful to some degree were sights to behold and most rewarding.

    The tour of such instruments "in the wild" was accompanied by a piano teacher, whose customers were the owners, and a concert pianist friend. On account of my temperament change they teased "You've succeeding in ruining a Steinway" . . . "You've made it sound like a Pleyel!" And much to their delight and that of the instrument's owner. 

    However, there is such a dearth of upcoming expertise certainly in this particular region of France that no-doubt other novices will be coming to the PGT forums asking stupid questions such as mine. Your toleration, kindness, help and reassurances are much appreciated and will be by others in due course.

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594

    Virus-free. www.avg.com





  • 9.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 19:24
    Dave,

    I recently shaped and voiced a set of grand hammers on a piano that was
    recently tuned.?? Before I left I touched up a few unisons.?? To my
    disappointment one treble string broke during a very minor touch-up.??
    This was in an area with other obviously replaced strings, so the likely
    cause was a section or size of weak strings or a very bad scale.

    Breaking strings are usually rare on good pianos, even when pulling
    strings over pitch to stabilize tension and settle pins and pitch.?? I
    recall having more breaking strings earlier in my career and I see lots
    of other tuner's strings on pianos I am tuning.?? This suggests that
    experience helps.

    I use a string lubricant often.?? I use a solution of mostly CLP with a
    few drops of Marvel Mystery Oil, which from my experience is a rust
    inhibitor (see my article in the PTJ; January 2018).




  • 10.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 06:25
    For strings with any amount of oxidation, lubricating the bearings and bearing felts seems to help reduce string breakage. I use Prolube and apply with a saturated felt mute. You need to apply quite a bit on the felts.

    Strings sometimes break at the pin even when first dropping the pitch so it's not due to the added tension but the change in the bend at the pin. Sometimes it's the becket itself that breaks.

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    Mario Igrec, RPT
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
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  • 11.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 14:18
    On pianos that look high risk for strings breaking... the recommendations for reducing string tension as a first pin movement and light lubricant on the friction points have always held well. It also seems to be the case that felt the string is bearing against can have even greater friction than the bearing points. 

    PLEASE avoid silicone lubricants. It's creepy stuff that isn't happy until it's covering the entire surface of the universe. 

    Also, the tuning pin is my FAVORITE place for a string to break. It's by far the easiest to repair.

    All that said, your original question is "Why?". It seems in the piano world that things come in streaks. Simple as that. I don't know why that is, but it's always been true for me. But when you're making changes like a major clientelle shift, turbulance is to be expected. Get really good at string repair/replacement, touch up on the hammer technique, and keep on doing cool things.

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    http://www.facebook.com/ReyburnPianoTech
    http://www.reyburntools.com
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  • 12.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 16:25
    I've been reading this thread with intrigue about technicians theory of why and where a string breaks.  Certainly, we know that strings are susceptible to breakage due to rust, and corrosion and breakage at the tuning pin is understood because it is a confluence of a weak point that experiences the greatest pull.To conclude a specific breakage is due hammer technique (lower first then raise...... or not) is specious. Aside from fatigue breaks at the capo, we cannot conclude the specifics, only the generalities. How can you conclude that your technique reduces string breakage when you don't know if another technique would have prevented the breakage?





  • 13.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-14-2019 17:03
    I think Ron N suggested that the string breaks at the tuning pin due to the work-hardened area leaving the coil.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 14.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-14-2019 17:04
      |   view attached
    For the curious...

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    WireFailure.pdf   3.96 MB 1 version


  • 15.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 21:15
    Ed: Thanks. Nice article but what the heck is the tuning "hummer" system mentioned several times on page 176? Lube and tap is not enough, now we've got to sing to the area too!


  • 16.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2019 17:16
    If the piano has exceeded it's 30-40 year design life expectancy ANYTHING can happen. Anything that is under stress 24/7/365 is going to give out at some point. Some parts will give earlier than others. 

    Ever wonder why all aircraft are subject to intense and regular inspection, and mandatory retirement? Metal fatigue--due to stress. That's why. And when these fail at inopportune times, people's lives are at risk. The designers and builders of these things KNOW how long they can last under the stress load they are designed to endure. They don't build them to last indefinitely. They know when to call it quits.

    The designers and builders of pianos never intended a life expectancy of 80+ years. Don't beat yourself up over it when stuff breaks. It's not your fault.  Educate your clients to understand that their old piano was never intended to last this long (despite what the salesman told grandma). 

    This whole mindset is hard to break, but we can do it.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 17.  RE: Strings breaking right at the tuning pin

    Posted 02-14-2019 18:33
    Thanks to all.

    In the paper about wire fracture is a hint for the neurosis inspired by the experience suffered:
      Another critical mechanism is in the point of tangency where the string starts to wind around the tuning pin. Repeated small tuning changes subject a short section of the string to alternate bending and straightening, which, even though slight, tend to work-harden the steel. This is why so many ''old age'' string failure occur at the tuning pin. It should be avoided to undergo the strings to unnecessary plastic bending due to incorrect twisting and excessive tension. 

    So to what might the paper be referring in terms of " incorrect twisting "

    Best wishes

    David P
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594

    Virus-free. www.avg.com