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Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

  • 1.  Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-21-2019 16:46
    Hello,

    I want to start practicing playing piano again. I'm looking to practice bigger works such as Rachmaninoff Prelude in C# minor and other such works. I have access to my Roland weighted electronic keyboard. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using it to practice on compared to an acoustic grand piano?

    I know the geometry is off, but to what extent and how could it hinder my playing when I get to an actual grand piano?

    What else?

    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-21-2019 18:48

    You want to play Rachmaninoff on a keyboard?!?! I'm not even sure that's possible. My advice is that, if you are going to play the piano, find a piano to play!


    Even a well regulated, well voiced console will perform better than a keyboard. The reason why is that all pianos and keyboards have weighted keys. It's a sales gimmick used to try to bridge the gap between pianos and keyboards. A piano has an action; most keyboards do not (Yamaha "silent" pianos being the exception). This allows the player fine control over the dynamics, because the action can be controlled. Most keyboard keys simply lift a metal connector into place, and the computer knows to make the sound. There is little to no control in the process. 

    The only advantage I see is that you can plug in a headset if the neighbors or your family complain. You do what you want to (and have to) do, but I would find a piano before using the keyboard. Maybe I'm just spoiled ;-)



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2019 09:41
    If you agree and go looking for an affordable console, be aware that NOT all pianos have weighted keys. Around here used pianos are everywhere for free or cheap, and not all of them will be an improvement on a keyboard. 
    I don't play well myself, and don't know anything about your keyboard, but teachers tell me that a big difference between keyboards and acoustic pianos is whether or not they have pedals.

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    Cindy Strehlow, RPT
    Urbana, IL
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  • 4.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-22-2019 07:42
    To play Prelude in C# minor you need the sostenuto pedal—which electronic keyboards don’t have. BUT, you’ll spend lots of bucks to get a piano with a sostenuto pedal!
    Chuck Raynor
    Sr. Helena Island, SC




  • 5.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Member
    Posted 12-22-2019 09:48
    This is not a question for this group and I can't find your name in the member directory. How did you get on this list? Are you a technician? Maybe we need to reset the password.

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    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2019 10:17
    Keith, my.ptg is open to anyone of any level of interest. PTG-L is PTG members only. Some other communities are also PTG members only depending on who set them up.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2019 16:07
    Keith, Pianotech is a public list so of course it doesn't have a password.

    This is a great benefit to Pianotech, since foreign and non-ptg piano technicians can take part. Wish more would, like they did on the old straight email mailman server.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 8.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2019 09:13
    Benjamin,

    Great answer.  Thanks

    Below is an article I wrote on this topic.  If any of you like this please feel free to use it but give me credit for it.  

    The Truth About "Digital" Pianos

    By David Weiss, Registered Piano Technician

     

    The first truth is that there is no such thing as a digital piano.  A piano is a musical instrument made of wood, felt, leather, and metal.  It has no electronic components. It is a percussion instrument where felt covered mallets called hammers strike strings to set them in motion. 

    The term "digital piano" was created by marketing departments to increase sales of electronic keyboards.  Their objective was to create the illusion that electronic keyboards are the equivalent of real pianos, thereby increasing their market share of musical instrument sales.  In this endeavor they have succeeded very well.  They have created what seems to be two categories of keyboard instruments, digital pianos and acoustic pianos.  (Please note the term acoustic piano is redundant.)  Now they are trying to cloud the terminology even further, by calling anything with a keyboard a piano.

    The more important truth is that digital and acoustic pianos are not equal, and in fact are not even close.  For the studying of traditional, classical music of the great composers, the only appropriate instrument is a piano.  The same holds true for studying jazz, or any other type of serious music.  A digital piano is not suitable for this because of several critical limitations:

     

    1.        You can't develop the proper touch on an electric instrument. 

    The art of playing beautiful music on a piano involves training the muscles to do very subtle movements.  The fingers develop strength, dexterity, and most importantly, sensitivity.  Electric keyboards, even the most expensive ones simply cannot replicate the action of a real piano.  Therefore one can never develop the finger strength or sensitivity needed to play the correct way.  A good pianist can play one note on the piano and elicit a thousand different shades.  This is the art of great playing, and this is why it is so moving to hear a great pianist play.  On an electric keyboard, the available palate is 3 or 4 colors, not one thousand.  Even expensive keyboards that claim to be touch-sensitive and have weighted keys do not perform much better.  While weighted keys are better than non-weighted keys, it still doesn't come close to the touch of a piano. 

     

    2.       The sound is artificial on an electric instrument.

    The sound of a real piano is generated by felt hammers striking strings, the strings vibrate, this in turn makes a wooden soundboard vibrate, and then the air around the soundboard starts to vibrate.   In other words, the sound is generated by felt, steel, and wood, and therefore the sound is alive.  Compare this to a digital piano, where the sound is produced by an electronic signal.  How alive is that signal?  Most of the time digital pianos sound like CD players.  It's the difference between hiking up a beautiful mountain trail, versus looking at a picture of nature.

     

    3.       The pedals are completely different on an electric instrument. 

    Pedaling is a skill that takes years of practice to develop.  Pedaling on a piano is not simply on or off.  There are multiple pedals and they each require different techniques.  Some electric keyboards don't have any pedal, some have one, but they are vastly different in feel from the pedals on a piano.  You simply cannot develop proper pedaling technique on an electric keyboard.  Again, plastic and electronic do not feel or perform like wood, felt, and metal. 

     

    4.       The pleasure factor is missing or diminished on an electric instrument.

    There is a sensual pleasure in playing an acoustic piano.  Playing an acoustic instrument can be an experience that digs deeply into our souls.  People are drawn to it because it touches something inside of them.  It makes them feel alive, it brings joy into their lives.  I maintain that this experience is either not possible or greatly diminished when playing an electric instrument.  In this case, the medium is as important as the message.

     

    Too many times I see parents buy an electric keyboard to get their child started on piano lessons.  Their thinking is to begin with the electric instrument, and if the child takes to it then later buy a real piano.  The problem with this is that the child is not really getting a taste of piano lessons by practicing on an electric keyboard.  Their fingers go up and down, but what's missing is the sensual pleasure.  The pleasing sound is gone, the feel of real piano keys is not there, and they don't develop the finger strength or touch needed to play the right way.  Often the child stops enjoying the lessons, but can't verbalize why.  The parent assumes he or she is not interested, and terminates the lessons.  Why did the child stop?  It's simple, there was no pleasure in it.  Even financially, it's often a bad decision to go with the electric piano at the start.  Like many electronic devices, digital pianos have terrible resale value.  Contrast this with pianos which hold their value very well.  Many times you can sell a good used piano for the same price you initially paid.

    Why can Miles Davis play one note and captivate us, why can a great pianist play the same piece we do and as we listen we are transformed?  Great musicians have trained themselves to play with sensitivity, and passion,  and to evoke emotions that move us, inspire us, and make us feel fully alive.  Studying music is not about moving fingers up and down, it's about developing our own ability to bring forth sounds and feelings that fulfill us. We aspire to play like the masters, in a way that moves our listeners, and nurtures us as we play.  In this pursuit, a piano is required, a real piano.

     

     

     

    Miscellaneous notes:

    You can play a piano in a power outage.

    What are pianos made from: Felt from sheep, wood from trees, leather from animal hides, metal from the earth.  In other words, pianos come from earth, trees, and animals.

     







  • 9.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-22-2019 09:52
    In the midi world, it's not a keyboard; it's a sampler. It's buttons, on/off switches.

    When a recital is held at a local music school, the teachers can tell which kids play a digital sampler at home because they can't control the piano.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com


  • 10.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-22-2019 11:47
    The biggest drawback, in my opinion, in the digitals which don't have ersatz actions, is that there is no letoff. Letoff defines the experience of touch, with the above mentioned "weighted keys", I think, coming in a distant second, if at all. When I used to play a digital I would almost hurt myself, looking for that letoff and digging further and further into the key to try and find something that wasn't there.

    That said, a digital is greatly preferred, to my mind, over a lousy, to somewhat okay upright...frankly. Most uprights are such horrible instruments, that they actively turn beginning students off, in their noisy inability to make pitch easy for the brain to decode. They also cause the player to recoil at sound pressure presented by their abrasive attacks. This is not a way to entice young or old players to sit down and play their pianos, and actively turns some away from the instrument for good. They do not shut down well, and the notes that play, present an extremely complex collection of veiled pitch and outright noise. In a household where the budget will preclude a decent well cared for upright, one where the negatives I just mentioned were somewhat mitigated,  I will often suggest a digital.

    In my own case, when I originally I entered this profession, after playing a frustrating worn out Chickering upright for over 20 years (read young childhood years & no money), when I took on the task of designing a piano I actually wanted to play,  while I was building and re-building my instrument, I played a relatively cheap Casio Previa. It was fun to play, especially Bach. It did not fall by the wayside, until I had a real nice sounding acoustic piano. Now I never touch the digital, as the visceral enjoyment of an excellent acoustic piano is so much more satisfying than the digital. However given the circumstances of a particular household, I think the digitals have their positive uses.



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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 11.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-22-2019 12:02
    Lacking the sensation of Let Off (a few have a 'bump' in the touch), damper lift is another missing element in the keystroke.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2019 13:18
    The monophonic (despite sophisticated attempts at wave forming) sound of digital pianos is tiring after a few minutes.
    Roger Gable





  • 13.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-23-2019 19:15
    (Long winded post)
    I rarely enter into discussions on this forum, but I thought I'd jump in here to contribute from my experience in this area. I started piano lessons in the 2nd grade and continued all through school, eventually majoring in piano in college. Countless hours practicing and performing as any of you know who have similar backgrounds. I prided myself on having very developed touch sensitivity to bring out melodies and keep the accompaniment tasteful. I am, however, at heart, a rock 'n roller and have played professionally much of my adult life. For about 8 years, I was part of a house band in a small theater doing oldies Rock 'N Roll shows. Available space dictated that I play on keyboards instead of a real piano. After 8 years of almost exclusively playing a keyboard, (very high end keyboards from well know makers), I was horrified to find that my very sensitive and highly developed touch and technique had all but disappeared and I found my self just "banging" on the keys. 

    When people ask ask me about keyboards versus real pianos, I definitely recommend real pianos if at all possible. If you're going to learn to play PIANO, you gotta have and practice on a PIANO, not a keyboard. 

    At age 65, I still play every chance I get, and yes, sometimes I have to play keyboards, but if a real piano is available at a gig, I'll even tune it for free just to be able to use the piano instead of a keyboard. 

    My 2 cents anyway!

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    Joe Tom McDonald
    Rowlett TX
    214-213-5044
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  • 14.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-22-2019 16:16
    To me the biggest failing of the digital keyboards is the lack of variation in color when the touch is changed. Even in the relatively more fancy digital keyboards, which play louder when played harder, the loud sound is the same as the soft sound, just more of it. A lack of touch responsiveness is the big failing of the digital keyboards, but certainly the lack of a change in tonal character when the player changes touch is a big part of why students shouldn't play on them.

    Digital keyboards have on-off switches (kind of like organs, in that way) and beginning students need to develop the sense of touch response which even poor real pianos can give. I'm not sure whether this sense of touch can be developed later on if the beginning years are spent playing digital kayboards.

    To me the most valuable part of digital keyboards is that one can play into them and get the notes written down. Also, some come with a lot of theory lessons. But for playing music -- not a good fit.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon
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  • 15.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-22-2019 19:27
    One learns organ technique rather than piano technique.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Member
    Posted 12-23-2019 19:39
    Sorry about my misunderstanding about the privacy of this list.
    I won't play piano on a keyboard that the keys do not have an attack rate sensor. That eliminates the on off point. The timing is more like a piano. Weighted keys don't matter. Also the sample sound is far better than digital creation of the piano sound. I like the piano sound on my Yamaha psr 900. The touch doesn't confuse me and you gain a sensitivity instead of just having to hit the note quickly so you don't miss the timing of the on off style of board. Huge difference. 
    I haven't found the feel of weighted keys to be close enough to a real piano to be worthwhile. If you played piano and had to use a board occasionally, the weighted keys will be a comfort. Otherwise you adapt to the touch of the instrument you play. Trills and tremolos can be done easily and makes it fun.

    ------------------------------
    Keith Roberts
    owner
    Hathaway Pines CA
    209-770-4312
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2019 02:21
    This is a non-starting discussion. A keyboard instument is just that- a keyboard. Can you learn to play black and white (natural and accidental) notes on any keyboard? Yes. Is a piano a harpsichord? No. Is an organ a piano? No. Is a synthesizer a piano? No. Can you translate some learning from one keyboard instrument to another? Yes.
    That’s it.

    Joe Wiencek NYC

    P.S. I thoroughly enjoy Scarlatti sonatas on a modern piano, an instrument the composer absolutely never heard. The music does not suffer.




  • 18.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-23-2019 22:28
    Thank you all. I don't have funds for a decent acoustic grand at this point nor do I have a place to put it. My other option would be looking to practice at a local college or university. I do have access to my keyboard though. I'm not sure if my keyboard is on/off or attack rate sensitive.

    Keith, this is definitely a question for this group, because I myself, being a full time technician, want technicians' responses and point of views as I get back into playing.

    I'm just not sure where I'd be able to get my hands on a quality grand at this point and this isn't the highest of my priorities. Knowing as much as I do about what goes into regulation I don't want to settle for a grand with a regulation that lacks.

    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2019 00:31
    Cobrun, as you're a full time technician, it shouldn't be too hard for you to find a church or school that has a decent piano in need of some work that you could practice on in exchange for getting it up to par. 

    Btw, you really should consider joining the Guild, the Journal provides a lot of useful knowledge in advance of problems presenting themselves to you. Costs less than a hamburger per week and is a lot better for you.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 20.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-24-2019 00:37
    Sorry Steven,

    I hadn't thought about joining the Guild in quite some time. It had completely escaped my thoughts. I'll look into it. Now, I'm excited 😁.

    Thank you.

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    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
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  • 21.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-24-2019 02:14
    Cobrun, you haven't stated what model or age of Roland keyboard you have. At worst, even if it's an old 1970's electronic piano, the keys are the same size and location as an acoustic piano's. So you can at least work on fingering and timing exercises for the pieces you aspire to play.

    The sound of a Roland keyboard ranges from pretty hideous and only remotely sounding like an acoustic piano, in the case of aforementioned electronic piano-yikes!, to pretty awesome in their newer fully modeled (no samples used) top of the line keyboards. Yours is probably in between, with limited velocity layers of sampled sounds.

    The touch sensitivity is also of a range from awful 70's electronic no resistance, through same with addition of lead weights in fronts of keysticks, neither of which you want to play on for very long for your fingers' sake, to progressively finer resemblance to real acoustic piano keys. Roland's newest top of the line keyboards even have wood insets on the sides of the keys, the white keys' plastic has a textured "ivory" feel, and all 88 have some form of mechanical movement resembling escapement. Again yours is probably somewhere in the middle. Most Rolands I have played have a disturbing key dip thump, which we techs would never put up with in an acoustic piano, but good luck getting rid of it in an electronic keyboard.

    Depending on what other electronic musical gear you have, such as computer, audio interface, and appropriate speakers, you could upgrade from the Roland's sound and touch by using MIDI to interface keyboard to computer, and running either a high-end piano sample library or a modelling program. The sample library would most likely be of only one instrument, albeit with many velocity layers and other available timbre tweaks, whereas the modelling program may have several different makes and models, and multiple ways to customize. Both types of software can have custom velocity curves for adjusting touch sensitivity.

    Whatever course you end up taking, congratulations on taking on such major piano pieces. They will help your technician chops as you learn to make acoustic pianos capable of keeping up with your musician chops. And yes, you need to join the Guild!


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    [Dwight][Denzer][RPT]
    [Dwight's Piano Works]
    [Springfield][IL]
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  • 22.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-27-2019 21:40

    Also Cobrun, because you're a piano technician it's likely that you'll receive an offer for a decent grand sometime. Just this past year I've had two offers for used Steinways. One needed to be rebuilt, the other needed to find a new home quickly. Both were under $1,000. But I didn't have any more room... too bad....

    Btw, most guys in my chapter receive offers for grands at least once a year. Sometimes as much as a dozen times a year, always for pennies on the dollar. Just keep your ears open and put out the word. 


    Best,



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Member
    Posted 12-24-2019 08:39
    Press the key down slowly. on off will have a point that the note plays and the volume is constant. 
    Attack rate, the note will sound louder as you play it faster. 
    With a good sample, it will approximate what happens with a piano. Since it's through speakers, it's like listening to an average recording of a real piano







  • 24.  RE: Practicing on Electronic Keyboard

    Posted 12-29-2019 16:47
    One more advantage to a piano is its stability, it's Weight, it's mass.
    Keyboards  all bounce around as I play them.
    that said I enjoy almost anything with keys.
    to me it's not one better than another but different choices.


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    S. Fenton Murray
    Royal Oaks CA

    S. Fenton
    ------------------------------