Pianotech

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input. 
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber. 
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

The structure of the board IS the glue joints. I would not play around with glues that are designed to be easily separated.  If you want more time for glue-up, use tightbond extend. Or, if you are absolutely sure all wooden members and shop ambient temperature is 80 deg F, use two part Unibond Urea formaldahyde glue. The UF glue gives plenty of open time, but will not bond if any substrate or shop temp is below 70 deg. In new england winters, I was not able to provide this drop dead temperature limit, and had a structural failure, I had to re-do. The temperature limitation of the UF's is absolutely unforgiving.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Yes Jim,
I too was unhappy with the results.
A small droplet that was on the table is still getting hard now after a week.
So, the test should be repeated with fresh glue and longer curing time.

I hate waiting

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 17:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

It's my understanding that cold hide glue never gets hard. That's why it's not used in player work.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:18
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Yes Jim,
I too was unhappy with the results.
A small droplet that was on the table is still getting hard now after a week.
So, the test should be repeated with fresh glue and longer curing time.

I hate waiting

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 17:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

It may not be the glue that is the problem. 

When I started working on bridges and making bridge roots, I found maple a very hard wood to get a decent bond with. I talked to wood science folks, and they said maple isn't particularly hard to glue, but then found numerous laminating specialists who agreed that maple can be a bear to glue. Turns out, after many many test, with every adhesive I could get my hands on, scratch the bejesus out of the maple before gluing with 80 grit stiff resin backed sand paper, and dampen the maple. Don't soak it, just dampen it. Let the moisture dissipate, then apply glue.

I have had no failures since I came up with this protocol, and cannot separate the joint without wood fiber failure.  

Factories laminating maple, run the maple through an aggressive grit abrasive planer (super duper belt sander) before glueup as well. Its also why they used toothed scrapers in the old days. Every maple joint I have seen on a vintage piano has been prepped with a toothed scraper.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:51
From: Jon Page
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It's my understanding that cold hide glue never gets hard. That's why it's not used in player work.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:18
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Yes Jim,
I too was unhappy with the results.
A small droplet that was on the table is still getting hard now after a week.
So, the test should be repeated with fresh glue and longer curing time.

I hate waiting

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 17:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

My go to source on hide glue is Stephen A. Shepherd https://books.google.com/books/about/Hide_Glue.html?id=dANEXwAACAAJ  who literally wrote the book on the subject. He prefers Old Brown Glue by Patrick Edwards for liquid hide glue. Fine Woodworking Magazine tested it as stronger than hot hide glue. https://www.oldbrownglue.com/images/articles/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 14:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It may not be the glue that is the problem.

When I started working on bridges and making bridge roots, I found maple a very hard wood to get a decent bond with. I talked to wood science folks, and they said maple isn't particularly hard to glue, but then found numerous laminating specialists who agreed that maple can be a bear to glue. Turns out, after many many test, with every adhesive I could get my hands on, scratch the bejesus out of the maple before gluing with 80 grit stiff resin backed sand paper, and dampen the maple. Don't soak it, just dampen it. Let the moisture dissipate, then apply glue.

I have had no failures since I came up with this protocol, and cannot separate the joint without wood fiber failure.

Factories laminating maple, run the maple through an aggressive grit abrasive planer (super duper belt sander) before glueup as well. Its also why they used toothed scrapers in the old days. Every maple joint I have seen on a vintage piano has been prepped with a toothed scraper.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:51
From: Jon Page
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It's my understanding that cold hide glue never gets hard. That's why it's not used in player work.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:18
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Yes Jim,
I too was unhappy with the results.
A small droplet that was on the table is still getting hard now after a week.
So, the test should be repeated with fresh glue and longer curing time.

I hate waiting

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 17:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 5/25/2020 3:17:00 PM
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

My go to source on hide glue is Stephen A. Shepherd https://books.google.com/books/about/Hide_Glue.html?id=dANEXwAACAAJ  who literally wrote the book on the subject. He prefers Old Brown Glue by Patrick Edwards for liquid hide glue. Fine Woodworking Magazine tested it as stronger than hot hide glue. https://www.oldbrownglue.com/images/articles/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 14:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It may not be the glue that is the problem.

When I started working on bridges and making bridge roots, I found maple a very hard wood to get a decent bond with. I talked to wood science folks, and they said maple isn't particularly hard to glue, but then found numerous laminating specialists who agreed that maple can be a bear to glue. Turns out, after many many test, with every adhesive I could get my hands on, scratch the bejesus out of the maple before gluing with 80 grit stiff resin backed sand paper, and dampen the maple. Don't soak it, just dampen it. Let the moisture dissipate, then apply glue.

I have had no failures since I came up with this protocol, and cannot separate the joint without wood fiber failure.

Factories laminating maple, run the maple through an aggressive grit abrasive planer (super duper belt sander) before glueup as well. Its also why they used toothed scrapers in the old days. Every maple joint I have seen on a vintage piano has been prepped with a toothed scraper.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:51
From: Jon Page
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It's my understanding that cold hide glue never gets hard. That's why it's not used in player work.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:18
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Yes Jim,
I too was unhappy with the results.
A small droplet that was on the table is still getting hard now after a week.
So, the test should be repeated with fresh glue and longer curing time.

I hate waiting

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 17:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Jim-
I have an interesting bit of info that is semi-related to your gluing experience.  We all know that Steinway came up with the system of bending the inner and outer rims in the late 1870's.  However, they didn't employ it until the early 1920's.  If you look carefully at old photos prior to the 1920's you can see grand outer  rims without the inner rims.  When they decided to bend them together they used a ply of poplar as a transitional wood.  The poplar adsorbed more moisture from the hide glue than the maple did and the result is a crack at the inner/outer rim interface. They removed the poplar and the problem was solved. Rebuilders are familiar with this situation. This info can be found in the book "Steinway and Sons" by Richard Lieberman; pp.139-140.  I often very lightly moisten maple when I join it with a dissimilar wood. But this is not the same as using water to activate polyurethane glue.  btw liquid hide glue gets just as hard hot hide glue, it just doesn't go through a gel stage.  

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 19:55
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Yes Jim, Agreed.

Original Message:
Sent: 5/25/2020 3:17:00 PM
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

My go to source on hide glue is Stephen A. Shepherd https://books.google.com/books/about/Hide_Glue.html?id=dANEXwAACAAJ  who literally wrote the book on the subject. He prefers Old Brown Glue by Patrick Edwards for liquid hide glue. Fine Woodworking Magazine tested it as stronger than hot hide glue. https://www.oldbrownglue.com/images/articles/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 14:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It may not be the glue that is the problem.

When I started working on bridges and making bridge roots, I found maple a very hard wood to get a decent bond with. I talked to wood science folks, and they said maple isn't particularly hard to glue, but then found numerous laminating specialists who agreed that maple can be a bear to glue. Turns out, after many many test, with every adhesive I could get my hands on, scratch the bejesus out of the maple before gluing with 80 grit stiff resin backed sand paper, and dampen the maple. Don't soak it, just dampen it. Let the moisture dissipate, then apply glue.

I have had no failures since I came up with this protocol, and cannot separate the joint without wood fiber failure.

Factories laminating maple, run the maple through an aggressive grit abrasive planer (super duper belt sander) before glueup as well. Its also why they used toothed scrapers in the old days. Every maple joint I have seen on a vintage piano has been prepped with a toothed scraper.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:51
From: Jon Page
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

It's my understanding that cold hide glue never gets hard. That's why it's not used in player work.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-25-2020 11:18
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Yes Jim,
I too was unhappy with the results.
A small droplet that was on the table is still getting hard now after a week.
So, the test should be repeated with fresh glue and longer curing time.

I hate waiting

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 17:03
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

<On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.

To me, the description of this test to failure does not sound particularly successful. Personally, no matter the glue choice, I would proceed only when fibre failure was much more in evidence. My tests look for a separation that either I cannot get to separate at joint itself, of that leaves significant wood fibre ripped out of the spruce. A picture would be useful, but "just a fuzz" of spruce sounds to me like like a dry and failed glue joint.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:50
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid Hide glue is a weak glue compared  to other glues. It is approximately 1100 p.si.  Titebond original is 3,600 p.s.i with a 5 minute work time. I switched to Titebond 3 because it is stronger at 4,000 p.s.i and a double work time which allowed me to get rid of an employee and do it all by myself.​
BTW, all of the commercial glues have done all the testing to back up their products.

-chris

P.S. The wife didn't like soundboard installation anyways.

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Lenoir City, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 16:07
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Liquid hide is perfectly fine for gluing bridges to board. I haven't used it recently for this, but I have many rebuilds going back 30 years using the LH glue in this way, and everything is holding up well. I always glue a scrap of spruce to a scrap of maple and let dry over night as a test run - especially if your glue has been hanging out in the cabinet for a while. I always use the LH for gluing new boards to the rim, including on those 30 year old  jobs - no problems. Do not use LH for gluing on caps for, as Karl has pointed out, heat generated by the spinning bridge pin bit (even at slower speeds) will soften the glue and gum up the bit.

These past years I have been using Garrett Wade's Slo-Set white glue, which allows 30 minutes set up time and dries strong. Been using it for cap glue-on (no bit gumming) and for gluing bridges to board. I also use this glue for panel glue ups.

Find the slo-set glue here.

https://www.garrettwade.com/slo-set-glue-pt.html

nick

Original Message:
Sent: 5/24/2020 2:54:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Karl, you might consider polyurethane for your cap and shoe pegs.  It does not gum like PVA's and epoxies.

I do often fill pin holes with epoxy resin, because its easier, at least until the drilling.  Sometimes it gums and sometimes it doesn't. I think it depends on whether I have let it fully cure for a month or so on not. But polyurethane does not gum at all.

re cleaning the gumming efficiently, I have had excellent luck running the bit forward and reverse through some cheap 1/8" lumberyard subfloor plywood. I have tried that trick in a spruce scrap, but the subfloor ply seemed to be much more effective.   I also drill slow speed, for other reasons other than the gumming issue.

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Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 13:35
From: Karl Roeder
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Mr. Murry,
I've used Franklin's Liquid Hide on a few bridges. Never had any adhesion problems. The reason I stopped using it on the bridge cap is that it fouls the bridge pin drill bit something awful. You will either waste a lot of time cleaning your bit or waste a lot of bits. Titebond III has worked better for me than Bolduc on bridge caps. Again the issue has been which glue sticks to the drill bit less. YMMV. I like the Bolduc glue and use it in other places. I think the next bridge I do I'll use plastic resin glue.

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Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL

Original Message:
Sent: 05-24-2020 12:17
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Franklin Liquid Hide for Bridges

Dear List,
I'm considering using Franklin Liquid Hide Glue ( cold pre-mixed ) for bridge to soundboard construction.
My primary reason is the greater working time.
I've watched this glue used on my Nick at Nite videos, you'd think that would be enough for me, but still
I'm asking for input.
On my test with maple to a scrap piece of spruce panel, I was able to separate the my test piece with
a nice blow with a wide chisel, just a fuzz of spruce left on the maple with some minor wood fiber.
100 year old bridges are not as easy to remove from old soundboards.
To be fair, this was expired glue ( 10 years old) , 4 days after glue up.
Also to be fair, being able to cleanly separate glue joints is a quality of this glue. I wonder what my
test would have been like after a month.
On this subject I've started using Titebond 50 because of the recent unavailability of Buldoc Acoustic Glue.
This is a incredibly strong, extremely hard glue , with a good gap filling quality in my tests. Available in quarts from Dale Erwin.
Thank you for your input.

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Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
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