Hi Jeannie:
thanks for your clarifying comments. I have been tuning in the attack for a number of years on most pianos, both aurally and electronically. I remember the discussions that Ron Nossaman initiated, and Ron telling me that what I do cannot possibly work.
I began by searching for a way to pitch raise more accurately and efficiently. I stumbled on this myself, but have found others who do the same since then. Whether the piano is flat or sharp, I always begin by dropping the pitch by as little as 10 cents or as much as 50 cents - DEPENDING ON HOW TIGHT THE PINBLOCK IS. The tighter the block, the more I drop the pitch. My movement is to drop the pitch down in one swift movement and then immediately start coming up in a quick motion. As my ear or the machine tells me I am approaching the target point, I slow down my movement but never come to a stop until I drop it on a dime at the target point. This method can be very accurate and stable. I don't need to listen very far into the attack, and my strikes are Da-da-da-da-daaaah. That last daaaah is where the pin is now moving slowly but never stops until I am there. And I think I am out of the attack phase at that point and in the sustain phase, so the pitch waver from the strike has settled.
What benefit is there to what i am doing? Well, we all deal with the pin twisting on its own axis and our need to get the twist out of the piano so our spot point will be stable. When I start moving the pin south, I am introducing twist into the pin. As I continue that directional movement without stopping, the twist on the pin will relax until it is gone. Then when I immediately start heading north again, I am reintroducing twist into the pin. So the path must be long enough for the twist to relax before getting to the target point. If I do that and I land on the spot point, the pin will be stable. If I stop at any point or get too slow along the way, the friction will build and I reintroduce twist when I start the movement. I then have to go all the way south again.
I can feel the pin losing its twist in both directions. I have done this so much that I can predict if I am going to be successful in the movement a little before I come to rest at the spot point. Often I just redo it without checking because my sensitivity is enough of a reliable indicator. If I am feeling my oats on a good day, I can drop it in on the first try 80% of the time or better.
What I like about this is how it pares our movements down to essentials and nothing more. Also, we can get into a rhythm that is both speedy and accurate. It really cut down my time for pitch raises.
It is accurate enough that one can do a concert tuning using these methods, and can work well when you are under the gun to git-er-done when you are not given enough time.
It can work well with pianos where stiction is a problem. The movement is large enough and quick enough that you are not slowing to the point where stiction reintroduces itself. That said, this method is not all things to all pianos. It is another tool in the box and a good one. I still use the slow drag and micromovements where needed.
The conventional wisdom is that this method will not be stable because the pitch movements are too large. That will be true using other methods of manipulating the pin, not so here. The key is that the pin is arriving the rest point without twist on its axis.
Jeannie, if you want to try this, start doing your pitch raises using this method.
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William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-02-2021 15:01
From: Jeannie Grassi
Subject: Tuning in the Sound Envelope
David Love,
This is confirming what I've been noticing. I find no need to listen to unisons (and maybe octaves) for longer than the attack. However, if one tries to "tune" during the attack I am curious how others actually manipulate the tuning lever a/o set the pin to end up with a stable tuning. When I've tried it, I've found that I need to move the pin more than I would like. It may be hard to describe rather than demonstrate, but I'd love to understand the mechanics of it, not so much the listening part.
Regards,
~ jeannie
Jeannie Grassi
PTG Registered Piano Technician
Bainbridge Island, WA
206-842-3721
grassipianos@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 10/1/2021 5:58:00 PM
From: David Love
Subject: RE: Tuning in the Sound Envelope
I think it depends on what interval you're tuning. I think you are able to hear very quickly if there is any movement at the point of attack when tuning unisons very easily. If there's even a hint of things starting opening you can detect that very quickly if you are listening while playing soft--if you play too hard you can distort the attack envelope and confuse the issue. If you are listening to beat rates of 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc. then I think it's trickier, you have to listen a bit longer into the envelope.
So if you are an aural tuner then you go back and forth between listening longer on non unison tuning (though I think octave tuning falls somewhat in the same category), if you are listening to other intervals then you will have to listen a bit longer.
It's worth noting that with ETDs they have a tendency to take a bit to settle after the attack (depending on which ETD you are using). But with a RCT you have to let the attack envelope settle. Not very long but long enough.
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David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2021 12:01
From: Margaret Jusiel
Subject: Tuning in the Sound Envelope
David et al,
I've never understood tuning during the attack because of the instability you mentioned, and because when I tune a unison I listen to the upper partials & there is no way I can hear them in a millisecond. HOWEVER, I did an experiment with my ETD: I tuned a piano with the sustain "in tune" according to my ETD, and again with only the attack "in tune". They were definitely not the same. Aural checks came out significantly better when I tuned on the attack, and that was listening to the checks on the sustain. For now, I'll continue to tune the sustain if tuning aurally and the attack if using my ETD. They seem to match for whatever reason and I'm satisfied with both.
Maggie
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Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2021 08:53
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Tuning in the Sound Envelope
This is a particularly interesting issue.
Intuitively I'd think that all strings should be tuned in their sustain. The attack will always be unstable.
If tuning with an ETD it also depends upon the quality of the software or algorithms. I tuned an 1854 Emerich Betsy (copied by Streicher and the basis of Bosendorfer) with a mobile phone app on which I could programme the temperament unable to be tuned by ear and, the stringing scale being more appropriate to a fortepiano found the attack variation impossible to cope with to tune with the app. The result with the app was not pretty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-hU5D7tSD4. Meanwhile the long revered CTS5 tuner works perfectly and follows the note into the decay for wholly accurate results on the instrument.
Best wishes
David P