Maggie went:
Honestly, though, if you are using the M3M10 method to set A, that third partial isn't going to be an issue.
Were you talking the F3/A3 M3d to the to the F3/A4 M10th? That's usually the test for a 4:2 octave, but what we want to tune here is the fork's fundamental to A4's fundamental. Anything involving F3 and an A (either A3 of A4) will coincide at the fundamental of A5.
To compare the accuracy of an A440, transferred from the fork to the piano, you probably want to be using F2 (whose 5th partial is A4).
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William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107
"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
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Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2021 19:15
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
Anthony is correct. You can use any tuning app tone generator, but someone must stay in the room in those cases. Honestly, though, if you are using the M3M10 method to set A, that third partial isn't going to be an issue. I would like to add that I turned the volume WAY down to set A.
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Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2021 12:22
From: Anthony Willey
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
Last I heard (and this may be out of date) if you want to use a smartphone for setting the A, they leave someone in the room with you to observe.
Original Message:
Sent: 11/5/2021 12:18:00 PM
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: RE: A440 electronic tone generator?
I am assuming no device that can carry a tuning app can be carried into the exam.
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Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2021 12:05
From: Anthony Willey
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
The best one for Android that I've used is called Tone Generator PRO. I think it's free to download, and you can upgrade it for more features for like $2.50 or something. I started using that exclusively after I discovered that some of the free metronome-like apps I was using before weren't actually giving me what I expected. The UI isn't the best...It's more complicated than most other apps because it has a LOT of functionality packed into it. For example, to generate a pure 440 Hz tone, you either have to use the "sweep generator" with starting and ending frequencies both at 440, or the "multi-tone generator" with just a single 440 Hz tone.
As with any app, the pure sine wave tone will distort if you turn the volume up to high. You can usually hear when this happens because it stops sounding like a flute and gets a harsher more piercing quality to the tone. It's not the fault of the app. Blame the tiny speaker on your phone.
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Anthony Willey, RPT
http://willeypianotuning.com
http://pianometer.com
Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2021 11:40
From: Robert Scott
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
Eric, I would not give up entirely on simple tone generator apps. Maybe you got a bad one. Also, the volume level can affect the degree of harmonic distortion. If you tested that tone generator app at a lower volume level you might find it to be not that bad. Maybe even look into listening with wired earbuds. Any distortion in the audio generation creates harmonics, so just try to minimize distortion.
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Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN
Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2021 11:27
From: Eric Schell
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
Hmm. Accufork. It would be nice if the higher partials were suppressed. I did read the Bill Bremmer article about hearing the beats in the 3rd partial between A4 with inharmonicity and the tone generator without.
And I do have Tunelab and I use it regularly. The only issue in the exam is that the tuning spectral display is there which would allow one to cheat. Maybe mask the display with tape, but leave the tone on-off button unmasked. I need to be able to turn the tone on and off.
Probably will use the Android app "Simple Tone Generator" that distinguishes between sine, square, and sawtooth waveforms. However looking at the spectrum in another android app, it is also generating strong 2nd and 3rd partials. So listening for the 3rd partial beating is still important.
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Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2021 20:35
From: Margaret Jusiel
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
Accuforks are still available. I borrowed one for my exam. I loved the wave it put out, which sounded much like a square wave to me. I wanted an electronic tone with strong upper partials. The 3rd partial of A on a piano is sharp from the third partial of A on in a typical electronic tone. If you ignore the fundamental and tune the 3rd partial to 3-4 BPS, you'll nail A. Rick had me practice it until I could do it consistently in 20 seconds. That way, I added 4 min & 40 seconds into my midrange tuning time. :-) As Bob mentioned, a tuning fork won't work with this method, and the inharmonicity in a string can affect how many BPS you need. With exam pianos, there is a certain degree of quality you can count on. I've seen others use this method with equal success.
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Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2021 19:58
From: Robert Scott
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
One thing to watch out for when using any electronic tone generator for tuning A4 is that the tuning exam rates you on how accurately you tune the fundamental (440). But most tone generators produce overtones at harmonic frequencies, like 880, 1320, etc., in addition to the fundamental. The easiest waveform to produce electronically is a square wave, and square waves have very strong odd-numbered harmonics. If the piano string for A4 has a strong 3rd partial, it will beat with the 3rd harmonic of the tone generator. If you are not careful you might find yourself tuning the 3rd partial instead of the fundamental. But if you tune the 3rd partial to 1320, that means the fundamental of that note on the piano could be as much as 4 cents flat. It depends on the degree of inharmonicity in that particular string. Bill Bremmer wrote of this phenomenon many times. The reason this problem does not come up when using a tuning fork is that tuning forks produce an almost pure sine wave with no harmonics. There is no temptation to tune to any partial other than 440. If you can be assured that your electronic tone generator is producing mostly the fundamental with very little harmonic energy, that is another way around the problem. Or you can just train yourself to listen for the fundamental and ignore the higher partials, even if they are beating with your tone generator.
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Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN
Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2021 11:48
From: Eric Schell
Subject: A440 electronic tone generator?
Can anyone recommend an electronic tone generator to use instead of the tuning fork for the tuning exam?
TIA,
Eric
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Eric Schell
ericschellpiano@gmail.com
Austin TX
512-363-6236
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