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J Gunther birdcage piano

  • 1.  J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-04-2019 14:31
    I was called to fix the dampers on an old birdcage piano (someone else tunes this!) The customer, a piano teacher, is very fond of this piano and wants to maintain it. The dampers weren't working at all and I took it on faith that the regular tuner adjusted the pedals, as I was told. So, I loosened and adjusted the damper rail closer so that the dampers work much better than they did. At some point the dampers will need to be replaced.

    The dampers could stand to move in about 1/16" closer to the strings. In the attached photos, there's a small bar out from the plate on each side of the piano, with a hole right through the bar;  the top part of the action is attached to this bar via a wingnut thingy. The arrows on the photos are pointing to the holes through the bars. My guess is that these bars are used to adjust the action distance from the strings by using the holes to turn the bars, and although they're very tight now, I'm guessing I can work them and get the 1/16" I need. Right idea, or no?

    Failing that, I may drill out the end caps on the wingnut doohickeys enough to get the dampers in closer to the strings. Failing that, I'll fill the old screw holes in the damper rail and drill new ones to get the needed distance.

    First birdcage I've ever seen. 


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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 2.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Posted 03-04-2019 16:36
    If you move the brackets in closer, you also move the hammer centers in closer. This will affect hammer strike angle and rebound. Bend the damper wires to compensate for the damper felt compression.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-04-2019 17:19
    Jon, I just need another 1/16" a the top, which translates to a bit less at the hammers. If blow distance is very likely already too far due to hammer wear, etc., would that matter? Bending damper wires is another option. 

    If instead of filling/drilling the damper rail screw holes, I make the screw-holes that you see on the pictures (bottom of first photo, a bit left of center) elongated, then that would allow me to shift the damper rail forward just the small amount needed, and it would also allow me to re-set if and when new felts are installed. That way the hammers are undisturbed. There are two center brackets on the damper rail (not shown) that are already adjustable.

    I got to thinking this way from searching Pianotech; someone mentioned that the damper rail tends to shift back on birdcages, but this was probably on a somewhat different construction. Still, my testing of the piano showed that shifting the damper rail was a good idea, and as I mentioned, the two adjustable center screws did a pretty decent job already (customer was pleased no end.) Took me 15 minutes. The end screws, though, are fixed.


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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 4.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-04-2019 16:37
    Don, you may be asking for trouble if you're treating the symptom rather than the cause. By moving the whole action in, if I understand you correctly, you'll be affecting the geometry of everything, such as the hammer blow, the "birdcage" might not allow you to move the damper rail as you'd like. It could be that the damper felts have shrunk significantly enough to cause the problem. Replacing them would be the correct solution to the symptom and less work than what you've prescribed. Regulation on these things have a tendency to go south i.e. breaking let-off screws, wooden nuts, etc. What kind of flanges are on the dampers? I've seen parchment hinges before.
    Good luck working on such a delicate mechanism. I'd leave my estimate open ended, you're doing your customer and the other tuner a big favor, you may as well get paid for the aggravation.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 5.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-04-2019 17:01
    The action moves as one unit, with overdampers included-- I've already tested. Yet, it's possible to move damper rail without moving the rest of the action.

    My guess is that since no one has worked on the action for years, hammer blow distance is too far and moving it in 1/16" won't affect much. Replacing felts is the solution, and customer has that in mind for the fall, when she is gone for a month. In the meantime, she'd like the piano to stop ringing so much.

    I haven't looked the piano over too closely but I'd guess that it's one of the better birdcages; as mentioned, customer loves it. 


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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 6.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Posted 03-04-2019 18:24
    Don't assume you can replace the damper felts with modern damper felts and get good results.
    Check with someone who knows, but as I recall, overdamper felts are cut with the grain perpendicular to the strings.
    (Overdamper is the correct terminology for birdcage actions. Birdcage action is what makes baby parakeets.)

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 7.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-04-2019 18:33
    You're correct Ed, usually overdamper felt has end grain felt. However, I've also read, through searching pianotech, that good results were had with "normal" felt. Besides that I believe it's difficult (impossible?) to get end grain felt these days. Maybe in England?

    ("Birdcage" is so much more poetic.)

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 8.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-04-2019 17:44

    Your saying that the dampers "need to be closer to the strings" leads me to wonder what is stopping them from hitting the strings (and being able to go beyond the point of contact - follow the string if you press on it) in the current condition. I would never take it on faith that someone previous adjusted the pedal correctly. Did you at least check it? Have you checked how the dampers lift from the keys, whether each key moves a fair bit before the damper is engaged? 

    As in any modern action, there needs to be some play of the pedal before it engages the dampers, and there needs to be play in each key before it engages its damper. That would be the first step: to check both those scenarios. If the pedal is raising all or some dampers instantly (no play at all), and/or if any keys are raising dampers instantly, that is the source of your problem. Regulation is the answer.

    With the individual keys and the wires that lead from the front of the wippen up to the damper lever, there will probably be leather or wooden nuts to turn to make the adjustment (the wire should be threaded at the ends - it varies exactly how and where, though).



    ------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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  • 9.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-04-2019 18:27
    Thank you, Fred. Good points to follow up on. The "regular" piano tech is very experienced and she checked/adjusted pedals; repair work isn't her cup of tea (but it's mine-- I love this stuff.) Will check pedal and especially individual wire adjustments. 
    So far as I can fathom, felt wear keeps dampers from firm contact with strings, and these birdcages were intended to "ring" a bit. With wear and tear the ring has become a non-damp.

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 10.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Posted 03-04-2019 19:57
    Again, I'm going to show my age.  Overdamper felt is, indeed as Ed described.  American Piano Supply in NJ used to sell it and we bought a bunch right before Schaff purchased the company.  Now don't go flaming me here, please...but we have used thick Shank Rest Felt (Schaff #945) in some circumstances for problem overdampers, and it seems to work ok for what was needed.  You have to have a sharp felt cutter at your disposal, but it works once in a while. We've worked on several Birdcage actions over the years, but my son just saw his first two weeks ago.  Walk away, son.  Please.  Just walk away. :)  There are techs out there who specialize in squares, birdcages, and all of the other "problem children" and thank goodness for them!



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    Ted Rohde
    Central Illinois
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  • 11.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-04-2019 20:34
    Ted, good info on the Shank Rest Felt-- thanks.
    Some people like challenges and love to figure things out. I'm one of those. 
    I'm coincidentally also working on an 1870-ish square grand that I see not as a problem, but as a wonderful opportunity to explore how these things work and how people thought about them. 

    But back to original question: does anyone know if the bars protruding from the plate are actually for adjusting action distance from strings? It's hard to tell if they're threaded or not. If so, this would be an easy way to test some ideas (provided I can get the 100-year-old parts loose.) Why else would these bars/rods have holes right through them?





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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 12.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-04-2019 20:39
    I would say they were there for the original installation of the bolts.
    "Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it; doubt everything, but don't doubt yourself." Gide






  • 13.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-05-2019 10:11
    So I think it makes the most sense to check the pedal and the individual damper wires and make sure the dampers aren't rising too early, and see if easy adjustments can be made. Then if dampers still need work I'm going to go with the bending damper wire option, as that is the least invasive and most reversible-- although potentially a delicate operation. I'll bend damper wires on a couple of tests first-- maybe a few "C's" in the middle and ends-- and check. That'll give me a line to sight other dampers as well. (And yes, I'll have to make two wire bends to align damper felts to strings properly.)

    Thanks to all.

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 14.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-05-2019 10:36
    It's touchy bending those wires. There should (at least typically) be only one right angle bend in the wire. It goes down from the lever, then forward to the damper head. That is calculated to place the correct thickness of felt square on the strings. So if you bend it forward at the lever, you will need to widen the right angle. Touchy to do, as you don't have anywhere near good access unless the action is out. 

    It is possible the damper heads are screwed on the wire, so you might be able to back them off a turn (which might make them loose, in which case a little thin CA might be good)
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it." Brecht






  • 15.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-05-2019 11:27
    Thanks for the pointers, Fred.  I'll take the action out first to get a good look at the mechanism and then figure out from there how best to proceed. Maybe something simple will become obvious, like backing off screws or a careful tug on the wire where it leaves the rail. Or, simply supporting the connection and then pushing on the wire at the bend to move it forward that extra 1/16".

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 16.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-05-2019 11:55

    I know this is all about dampers but I cannot help adding my input on the Birdcage vs Overdamper.  Living in England, when I came across my first Birdcage piano, I told the person I could not do this. I said that to the second person who had a Birdcage.  When I got my third Birdcage, I said to myself, if I'm going to live in this country, I better learn how to tune these things and did.  While stopping at the piano supply place in London, Fletcher & Newman, I chatted with the fellow behind the counter and mentioned about working on a Birdcage.  He quickly said that was an American thing and that they are called Overdamped if you please.  He then followed up with if I knew the best tool for that type of piano? Thinking he was going to say Papps Wedge (they call it wedge instead of mute) I said what?  He pulls out some lighter fluid and a lighter. Who says the Brits don't have a sense of humor, eh what?



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    Jim Fariss, RPT
    Black Forest Piano
    Black Forest, Colorado
    (719) 425-8845
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  • 17.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-05-2019 13:08
    While bending the wires is not a bad idea, I would have two concerns if it was me. Reversing the two bends when the new dampers are eventually installed, and not breaking something in the process. This action is most likely over 120 years old after all. If you have the type of bending pliers that approach the wire from the same direction you're bending (rather than from 90 degrees), usually used for backchecks, you can avoid stressing the wooden parts. Perhaps the damper heads are held in with set screws and you can just move them forward, that would be a blessing.
    Another option, since this is temporary till replacement next fall, might be to add a strip of bushing felt to the dampers. I cringe at the idea as it's improper, but it is temporary, maybe even name-board felt that's self adhesive. 
    While I'm more in Ted Rohde's "head for the hills" camp, in general I'd stick with my original advice and press the customer to do it right the first time by replacing the dampers now rather than subject the piano to stop gap measures that could lead to complications.
    Btw, the dampers are usually pressed against the strings by weight rather than a spring, it would be worth checking the damper flanges for resistance, a little lube could help a bit.
    Regarding the lighter fluid method. They used to hold piano smashing contests in the UK, the fastest time to break a piano down to fit through a 9" hole is 1 minute, 34.41 secs according to the Guiness Book. The guy at Fletcher & Newman wasn't joking. Well, he was joking but...

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 18.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-05-2019 13:30
    Temporary felt addition... why not? Damper flange check is a good idea.
    Lot's of great options. 

    Lighter fluid is only for overdamped pianos; this is a birdcage....

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 19.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 03-05-2019 14:40
    "Lighter fluid is only for overdamped pianos; this is a birdcage...."

    Actually, in England I believe they were known to the public a Cottage Pianos. One of these and a Doré bible on the mantle were symbols that a household had made it to the middle class. I don't know what they called them in Belgium. 
    Does yours still have the candlestick holders?


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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 20.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-05-2019 20:03
    It does have candlestick holders. One of the first things I noticed.

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 21.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Posted 03-08-2019 18:11
    J. Gunther was a piano maker in Brussels.

    Spending too much time (more than 10 minutes) on an overdamper action is probably as futile as trying to get a spinet to play like a grand. But if you want to knock yourself out and have a great learning experience, I can get some specific overdamper felt for you. You can choose form a strip or pre-cut pieces.  Contact me off-list through my website www.pianofortesupply.com

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    Jurgen Goering
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  • 22.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-08-2019 19:13
    Thank you, Jurgen. I'll certainly keep that in mind when it comes time for the felts.




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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 23.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-11-2019 20:33
    Applying nameboard felt to the damper felts was the way to go, as adjusting the dampers was a no-go and bending the wires would have been very difficult (impossible?) with the standard wire bender I have. Job took two hours, and after sustain pedal was adjusted, customer was happy. The nameboard felt stuck very nicely to existing felts; action was removed to do the job. 

    Thanks to all for great ideas!

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 24.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Posted 03-12-2019 12:25
    I'd be worried that the nameboard felt will retain moisture and cause corrosion on the wire. I've seen nameboard felt used as string felt in the back scale and there was excessive corrosion on the contact points.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-12-2019 13:32
    Good to know of potential problem with nameboard felt. With luck it'll be OK until damper felts replaced, but will be sure to caution owner against letting replacement go too long.

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 26.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Posted 03-12-2019 16:55
    I am convinced that there is not a string corrosion problem  associated with nameboard felt per se.
    What may be going on is that there is a string corrosion problem associated with cheap, low quality craft felt which may be used as or even sold as nameboard felt.  Proper piano felts should not have any residual chemicals in them which could cause such issues.

    But I would be more concerned about the idea that adding nameboard felt to the surface of damper felts constitutes any kind of repair that professionals carry out and charge for.  This is a weekend warrior approach. As professionals, it behooves us to do a job properly or not at all.  If someone is not willing to pay the fee, then it doesn't mean that our bar gets lowered to the lowest level, it means the work has to get put off until the funds are there. It is usually not a money problem anyway; people generally spend more money on things like car washes for their numerous cars than they "can afford" for piano maintenance.

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    Jurgen Goering
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  • 27.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 03-12-2019 21:11
    Jurgen, I understand completely. I discussed this with the client; she has piano students and was unwilling to have the piano out of commission to do the damper work during her normal workweek (she has a waiting list of students.) She's going to Australia for a month in the fall, and we agreed that then would be the time to replace the felts. Being unfamiliar with birdcages (OK: "overdamped") and being warned against them, I had no idea if I could get the needed work done in a timely manner.

    In this case, the dampers weren't working at all. It had gotten that bad. Client could not play the piano properly and she could not teach properly. I fixed it, with the help of sound advice on this forum, using a method that is basically harmless and doesn't involve more elaborate fooling with the piano. She's very happy, and I'm glad to have helped. She's attached to the piano and I have little doubt that this will be taken care of.

    I did my best given the circumstances. Sometimes we can't let the perfect get in the way of the good.

    Let me add that this was not my client; I was called in by another (very experienced) technician who had been tuning the piano.














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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 28.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 10-14-2019 18:32
    Here's an update on the J. Gunther overdamper piano.

    The nameboard felt trick worked excellently. Thank you for that suggestion.

    The customer did indeed have me replace the dampers, which I finished last week. I had to cut each damper felt individually, using Laoureux felt. Despite getting felt to within 1/2 mm of original dimensions (plus nameboard felt) I had to bend every single wire to get it perfect, so that the dampers didn't ring and yet the peddle worked. But the last eight or so treble dampers are much smaller and the space is much tighter: too high, the damper doesn't hit the strings fully, too low and the hammer hits the damper. I believe that problem here is that the felt is too soft for the job in that spot, as I've tried to get the dampers there just right with unsuitable results. 

    I'm going to punt. I have various damper felts I can try and I'll order some shank rest felt as well as some hammer felt trimming. 
     
    The other dampers work well. It was a job.


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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 29.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2019 18:43
    Concerning the problem of the hammer hitting the damper, bear in mind that damper timing plays a big role. The earlier the damper starts to rise off the strings, the farther down it moves toward the hammer, so time the high treble very late to minimize damper movement. Also lower your expectations for how well they should work. Think of it as a transition between damping and not having a damper at all. Placement that close to the termination severely limits what is possible.
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." Plutarch






  • 30.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 10-14-2019 19:43
    Great point on damper timing-- thank you. It may be that timing is the issue.
    Regarding expectations, the dampers with the nameboard felt worked fine, so that's what the client expects and that's what I'm aiming for. Playing the piano months after I put the nameboard felt on, I was amazed at how well it had worked. A great temporary solution!

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 31.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-14-2019 21:12
    The lower dampers will work much better than those at the top, which are fit into a tiny space and bear on the very end of the speaking length. If you try to damp a unison in that area with your finger, you'll find that you have to press really hard to get the sound to shut off, so you need to expect that there will be diminishing after ring rather than shut off. 

    I completed work on my 1851 Montal pianino (which has over dampers) last spring in preparation to take it to the Tucson convention. I discovered the joys of the over damper design when playing it, especially music like Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words. The fact that the dampers didn't shut off instantly turned out to be a blessing: the music worked very well with minimal attention to pedaling, where before I had always found it a struggle to be doing just the right amount of half and flutter pedaling to get the right sound. 

    I think that rapid shut off is really rather unmusical in most contexts. Leaving a little ring, that diminishes over a short time, is more like what the voice does most of the time. There is music that demands clear and sharp articulation, and it doesn't work well for that, but for the romantic repertoire it makes life easier. It also makes sense of how much of the music of the time is notated, often with a staccato for the low left hand bass note that starts a measure. That sounds stupid if you do it literally on a modern piano, but it works just fine with an over damper pianino. 

    A newspaper review of Montal's very first exhibit of pianos talks about his damper system: he had dampers on both sides of the string, one right at the strike point (other side), and one below the hammers. So why, I had wondered, would he be building pianinos ten years later, with far inferior damping? I think I found the answer: there was a market for that sound, and the slower damping was a feature, not a defect. 
    Regards,
    Fred Sturm
    "Since everything is in our heads, we had better not lose them." Coco Chanel






  • 32.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Member
    Posted 10-15-2019 05:49
    I agree that there's nothing "wrong" with an overdamper piano. This is a wonderful piano. It's solid. Working on overdampers is difficult; getting them to work properly is, as with any piano, satisfying. 

    Interesting thing is that the dampers other than the treble work beautifully: no ringing. This was also the case when the nameboard felt was applied. This piano was built in 1913-14, so I wonder if they were paying more attention to damping when this was built?

    Those treble dampers are another story: they're going to have a bit of a ring no matter what. Right now the damping on some of those isn't working at all.

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    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
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  • 33.  RE: J Gunther birdcage piano

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2019 10:49
    For those interested, here are a couple iPhone videos of PTG members Kestrel Curro and Nicholas Litterski playing my Montal pianino in the exhibit hall in Tucson. Chopin and Mendelssohn. The dampers on this instrument are an interesting design. I recreated what Montal had done the best I could from a patent drawing, that showed an identical damper head (the dampers had been replaced by something modern, that didn't work at all). The folded layers act somewhat like a spring, and so as the weight of the wippen pulls the levers down, the damper moves outward on the string, causing a slow damping. (There are no lead weights in the damper levers, so it is all wippen and lever weight pressing the damper felt against the strings).
    BTW, the damper rail pivots forward, with the pivot point at the treble end, as opposed to being lifted.
    "Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it; doubt everything but yourself." Gide