Pianotech

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,


------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Hi Harry:
Well, I guess that only time will tell. If it's still holding the pitch, I would not obsess about it. I would be surprised if it got worse in the short term. Perhaps over many years the pinblock might dry out and lose grip on the pins, and maybe that would cause that particular pin to lose grip altogether. But that scenario would be a long long time in the future. As it is, "it ain't broke", so no need to fix it. And even if it were to fail, there are remedies for that.
As far as the cracking on the bridge, I'm not sure putting epoxy into the cracks is going to stop any further cracking.
My $.02.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Subject: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40


I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^) the 1st question: I notice the hairline... -posted to the "Pianotech" community Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.

Piano Technicians Guild
Pianotech

Post New Message Aid i took after using WD40
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Harry Dane Sep 16, 2020 11:13 AM | attachmentview attached
Harry Dane
I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

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Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 11:13:00 AM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Dont' worry about it. The torque readings are not that low and it sounds like you did not do the entire piano if I am reading your post correctly . The tiny crack on the bridge is also not a problem and I would advise against using or attempting a repair. You will notice things as the wood in the piano expands and contracts but many are normal changes. It would be a good idea to have a temperature and humidity gauge and monitor the area around the piano for humidity swings. Check out some of the information on the Dampp-Chaser(Piano-Life Saver) web site to understand the effects of humidity on pianos. You may be getting rust because the humidity is too high or temperature and humidity are causing moisture to settle on strings. A string cover made of 100% wool and custom made to fit over all of the strings including the tuning pins an coilmay be something to consider

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Howdy!
New found to demostrate those changes. 

As i measured it today with my torgue wrench, i do find the force changes with testing.
every test result is not the same.

Tune that key a bit sharp then test the pin with the togue .( i tune that key to 8 cents sharp)
using the torque to correct it to the right pitch.(counterclockwise )
as you move the pin,you keep recording the result.
at first, around 6 NM to make the pitch drop a little about 1 cent.
as you keep moving the wrench, it is about 8.5NM to move it down 3cents.
then 9.5 NM to normal.
as you can see the figure is changing.
a pin connected with the wire is impossible to get a constant .


to testify my thought,i tune that key a bit flat then back to normal.
taking the same steps to measure it again.
i do find the figure changes as well.
also figures are lower than the former ones.


that can explain why the test results are different even with the same pin.

any further suggestions are welcomed,^^
best regards,
Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 12:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Dont' worry about it. The torque readings are not that low and it sounds like you did not do the entire piano if I am reading your post correctly . The tiny crack on the bridge is also not a problem and I would advise against using or attempting a repair. You will notice things as the wood in the piano expands and contracts but many are normal changes. It would be a good idea to have a temperature and humidity gauge and monitor the area around the piano for humidity swings. Check out some of the information on the Dampp-Chaser(Piano-Life Saver) web site to understand the effects of humidity on pianos. You may be getting rust because the humidity is too high or temperature and humidity are causing moisture to settle on strings. A string cover made of 100% wool and custom made to fit over all of the strings including the tuning pins an coilmay be something to consider

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/18/2020 12:18:00 AM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Howdy!
New found to demostrate those changes. 

As i measured it today with my torgue wrench, i do find the force changes with testing.
every test result is not the same.

Tune that key a bit sharp then test the pin with the togue .( i tune that key to 8 cents sharp)
using the torque to correct it to the right pitch.(counterclockwise )
as you move the pin,you keep recording the result.
at first, around 6 NM to make the pitch drop a little about 1 cent.
as you keep moving the wrench, it is about 8.5NM to move it down 3cents.
then 9.5 NM to normal.
as you can see the figure is changing.
a pin connected with the wire is impossible to get a constant .


to testify my thought,i tune that key a bit flat then back to normal.
taking the same steps to measure it again.
i do find the figure changes as well.
also figures are lower than the former ones.


that can explain why the test results are different even with the same pin.

any further suggestions are welcomed,^^
best regards,
Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 12:47
From: James Kelly
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Dont' worry about it. The torque readings are not that low and it sounds like you did not do the entire piano if I am reading your post correctly . The tiny crack on the bridge is also not a problem and I would advise against using or attempting a repair. You will notice things as the wood in the piano expands and contracts but many are normal changes. It would be a good idea to have a temperature and humidity gauge and monitor the area around the piano for humidity swings. Check out some of the information on the Dampp-Chaser(Piano-Life Saver) web site to understand the effects of humidity on pianos. You may be getting rust because the humidity is too high or temperature and humidity are causing moisture to settle on strings. A string cover made of 100% wool and custom made to fit over all of the strings including the tuning pins an coilmay be something to consider

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Sorry to ask ,if i didnt get you wrong.
Do you mean you ever put a judicious amount of WD40 into the tuning pin holes before you installed the new pins?



> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:59 PM
> From: "David Pinnegar via Piano Technicians Guild" <mail@connectedcommunity.org>
> To: nikesolid@mail.com
> Subject: RE: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40. Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with... -posted to the "Pianotech" communitya { color: #000000; } a:link { text-decoration:underline; } a:visited { text-decoration:underline;} a:hover { color: #000000; text-decoration:none; } a:active { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:link { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:visited { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:hover { text-decoration:underline; } .buttons a:active { text-decoration:underline; } .msglink a { color: #FFFFFF; } .remove-embedded-content { mso-hide: all; max-height:0; font-size:0; } .uconBody a { color:blue; } .uconBody a:link { text-decoration:underline; } .uconBody a:visited { text-decoration:underline; } .bquote { background: #fafafa; border-left: 5px solid #ebebeb; margin: 1.5em 10px 1.5em 20px; padding: 0.5em 10px; quotes: "\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019"; } .bquote:before { color: #ccc; content: open-quote; font-size: 4em; line-height:0.1em; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-right: 5px; } .bquote p { display: inline; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11.5px; font-weight: 300; line-height:1.25; } .bqFooter { text-align:right; font-size: 80%; margin-top: 5px; } .bqFooter:after { color: #ccc; content: close-quote; font-size: 5em; line-height:0; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-left: 5px; } @media (max-width: 480px) {.img-responsive { display:block; max-width:100%; width:100% !important; height:auto !important; }} Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. ---
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>
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>
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.
> Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.
> The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.
> We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.
> We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.
> A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems.
> Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.
> Best wishes
> David P
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> +44 1342 850594
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> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
> From: Patrick Draine
> Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Harry, you wrote "**please i m the freshman in piano, haha.**" Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's **Pianos Inside Out** is quite comprehensive, etc.
> There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
> Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.
>
> ------------------------------
> Patrick Draine
> Billerica MA
> 978-663-9690
> ------------------------------
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Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 3:58:00 PM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------
</mail@connectedcommunity.org>

Harry, NEVER use WD-40 on a piano. NEVER NEVER NEVER.
Please.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 21:10
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Sorry to ask ,if i didnt get you wrong.
Do you mean you ever put a judicious amount of WD40 into the tuning pin holes before you installed the new pins?



> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:59 PM
> From: "David Pinnegar via Piano Technicians Guild" <mail@connectedcommunity.org>
> To: nikesolid@mail.com
> Subject: RE: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40. Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with... -posted to the "Pianotech" communitya { color: #000000; } a:link { text-decoration:underline; } a:visited { text-decoration:underline;} a:hover { color: #000000; text-decoration:none; } a:active { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:link { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:visited { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:hover { text-decoration:underline; } .buttons a:active { text-decoration:underline; } .msglink a { color: #FFFFFF; } .remove-embedded-content { mso-hide: all; max-height:0; font-size:0; } .uconBody a { color:blue; } .uconBody a:link { text-decoration:underline; } .uconBody a:visited { text-decoration:underline; } .bquote { background: #fafafa; border-left: 5px solid #ebebeb; margin: 1.5em 10px 1.5em 20px; padding: 0.5em 10px; quotes: "\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019"; } .bquote:before { color: #ccc; content: open-quote; font-size: 4em; line-height:0.1em; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-right: 5px; } .bquote p { display: inline; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11.5px; font-weight: 300; line-height:1.25; } .bqFooter { text-align:right; font-size: 80%; margin-top: 5px; } .bqFooter:after { color: #ccc; content: close-quote; font-size: 5em; line-height:0; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-left: 5px; } @media (max-width: 480px) {.img-responsive { display:block; max-width:100%; width:100% !important; height:auto !important; }} Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. ---
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.
> Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.
> The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.
> We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.
> We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.
> A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems.
> Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.
> Best wishes
> David P
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> +44 1342 850594
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
> From: Patrick Draine
> Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Harry, you wrote "**please i m the freshman in piano, haha.**" Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's **Pianos Inside Out** is quite comprehensive, etc.
> There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
> Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.
>
> ------------------------------
> Patrick Draine
> Billerica MA
> 978-663-9690
> ------------------------------
>
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Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 3:58:00 PM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Yep,total agreed and appreciate your comment.
I know i made a mistake.
to figure out how bad that is.the Torque has been involved.
So have you got some informations on if my testing result is okay for that tuning pin?

i really have no clue now.why the testing figures can be huge different with 2 different testing methods
1 ,tune piano from sharp to normal then test with torque wrench
2,tune piano from flat to normal then test it with wrench again.

which method is the Marginal point 70 inchpounds related to?
is that the figure which is taken using a certain method?

best regard,
Harry
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 3:43 AM
> From: "Patrick Draine via Piano Technicians Guild" <mail@connectedcommunity.org>
> To: nikesolid@mail.com
> Subject: RE: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Harry, NEVER use WD-40 on a piano. NEVER NEVER NEVER. Please. ------------------------------ Patrick Draine Billerica MA 978-663-9690 -----------... -posted to the "Pianotech" communitya { color: #000000; } a:link { text-decoration:underline; } a:visited { text-decoration:underline;} a:hover { color: #000000; text-decoration:none; } a:active { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:link { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:visited { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:hover { text-decoration:underline; } .buttons a:active { text-decoration:underline; } .msglink a { color: #FFFFFF; } .remove-embedded-content { mso-hide: all; max-height:0; font-size:0; } .uconBody a { color:blue; } .uconBody a:link { text-decoration:underline; } .uconBody a:visited { text-decoration:underline; } .bquote { background: #fafafa; border-left: 5px solid #ebebeb; margin: 1.5em 10px 1.5em 20px; padding: 0.5em 10px; quotes: "\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019"; } .bquote:before { color: #ccc; content: open-quote; font-size: 4em; line-height:0.1em; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-right: 5px; } .bquote p { display: inline; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11.5px; font-weight: 300; line-height:1.25; } .bqFooter { text-align:right; font-size: 80%; margin-top: 5px; } .bqFooter:after { color: #ccc; content: close-quote; font-size: 5em; line-height:0; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-left: 5px; } @media (max-width: 480px) {.img-responsive { display:block; max-width:100%; width:100% !important; height:auto !important; }} Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. ---
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> Harry, NEVER use WD-40 on a piano. **NEVER NEVER NEVER.**
> Please.
>
> ------------------------------
> Patrick Draine
> Billerica MA
> 978-663-9690
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 09-16-2020 21:10
> From: Harry Dane
> Subject: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Sorry to ask ,if i didnt get you wrong.
> Do you mean you ever put a judicious amount of WD40 into the tuning pin holes before you installed the new pins?
>
>
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:59 PM
> > From: "David Pinnegar via Piano Technicians Guild" <[mail@connectedcommunity.org](mailto:mail@connectedcommunity.org "mailto:mail@connectedcommunity.org")>
> > To: [nikesolid@mail.com](mailto:nikesolid@mail.com "mailto:nikesolid@mail.com")
> > Subject: RE: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40
> >
> > Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40. Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with... -posted to the "Pianotech" communitya { color: #000000; } a:link { text-decoration:underline; } a:visited { text-decoration:underline;} a:hover { color: #000000; text-decoration:none; } a:active { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:link { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:visited { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:hover { text-decoration:underline; } .buttons a:active { text-decoration:underline; } .msglink a { color: #FFFFFF; } .remove-embedded-content { mso-hide: all; max-height:0; font-size:0; } .uconBody a { color:blue; } .uconBody a:link { text-decoration:underline; } .uconBody a:visited { text-decoration:underline; } .bquote { background: #fafafa; border-left: 5px solid #ebebeb; margin: 1.5em 10px 1.5em 20px; padding: 0.5em 10px; quotes: "\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019"; } .bquote:before { color: #ccc; content: open-quote; font-size: 4em; line-height:0.1em; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-right: 5px; } .bquote p { display: inline; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11.5px; font-weight: 300; line-height:1.25; } .bqFooter { text-align:right; font-size: 80%; margin-top: 5px; } .bqFooter:after { color: #ccc; content: close-quote; font-size: 5em; line-height:0; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-left: 5px; } @media (max-width: 480px) {.img-responsive { display:block; max-width:100%; width:100% !important; height:auto !important; }} Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. ---
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> > Sep 16, 2020 3:58 PM
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.
> > Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.
> > The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.
> > We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.
> > We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.
> > A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems.
> > Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.
> > Best wishes
> > David P
> > --
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > +44 1342 850594
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > Original Message:
> > Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
> > From: Patrick Draine
> > Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
> >
> > Harry, you wrote "**please i m the freshman in piano, haha.**" Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's **Pianos Inside Out** is quite comprehensive, etc.
> > There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
> > Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Patrick Draine
> > Billerica MA
> > 978-663-9690
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 9/16/2020 3:58:00 PM
> From: David Pinnegar
> Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.
> Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.
> The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.
> We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.
> We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.
> A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems.
> Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.
> Best wishes
> David P
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> +44 1342 850594
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
> From: Patrick Draine
> Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Harry, you wrote "**please i m the freshman in piano, haha.**" Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's **Pianos Inside Out** is quite comprehensive, etc.
> There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
> Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.
>
> ------------------------------
> Patrick Draine
> Billerica MA
> 978-663-9690
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You are receiving this notification because you followed the 'Aid i took after using WD40' message thread. If you do not wish to follow this, please click [here](https://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/Common/Unfollow.aspx?UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved&ItemKey=a0e9f803-cb08-4dc3-bed0-fa4f08b1d9bb). Update your [email preferences](https://my.ptg.org/go.aspx?c=Preferences§ion=email) to choose the types of email you receive
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Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 9:41:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, NEVER use WD-40 on a piano. NEVER NEVER NEVER.
Please.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 21:10
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Sorry to ask ,if i didnt get you wrong.
Do you mean you ever put a judicious amount of WD40 into the tuning pin holes before you installed the new pins?



> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:59 PM
> From: "David Pinnegar via Piano Technicians Guild" <mail@connectedcommunity.org>
> To: nikesolid@mail.com
> Subject: RE: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40. Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with... -posted to the "Pianotech" communitya { color: #000000; } a:link { text-decoration:underline; } a:visited { text-decoration:underline;} a:hover { color: #000000; text-decoration:none; } a:active { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:link { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:visited { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:hover { text-decoration:underline; } .buttons a:active { text-decoration:underline; } .msglink a { color: #FFFFFF; } .remove-embedded-content { mso-hide: all; max-height:0; font-size:0; } .uconBody a { color:blue; } .uconBody a:link { text-decoration:underline; } .uconBody a:visited { text-decoration:underline; } .bquote { background: #fafafa; border-left: 5px solid #ebebeb; margin: 1.5em 10px 1.5em 20px; padding: 0.5em 10px; quotes: "\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019"; } .bquote:before { color: #ccc; content: open-quote; font-size: 4em; line-height:0.1em; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-right: 5px; } .bquote p { display: inline; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11.5px; font-weight: 300; line-height:1.25; } .bqFooter { text-align:right; font-size: 80%; margin-top: 5px; } .bqFooter:after { color: #ccc; content: close-quote; font-size: 5em; line-height:0; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-left: 5px; } @media (max-width: 480px) {.img-responsive { display:block; max-width:100%; width:100% !important; height:auto !important; }} Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. ---
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> Sep 16, 2020 3:58 PM
>
>
> [David Pinnegar](https://my.ptg.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=7f402c9f-73cc-49de-a019-e57c66358edf)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.
> Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.
> The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.
> We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.
> We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.
> A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems.
> Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.
> Best wishes
> David P
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> +44 1342 850594
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **[Reply to Group Online](https://my.ptg.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08&ListKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf&MDATE=%3e46%3b47575&UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved)** **[View Thread](https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer&MDATE=%3e46%3b47575&UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved#bm5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08)** **[Recommend](https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer&cmd=rate&cmdarg=add&MDATE=%3e46%3b47575&UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved#bm5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08)** **[Forward](https://my.ptg.org/communities/all-discussions/forwardmessages?MessageKey=5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08&ListKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf&MDATE=%3e46%3b47575&UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved)** **[Mark as Inappropriate](https://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08&CommunityKey=6265a40b-9fd2-4152-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer&MarkAppropriate=5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08&MDATE=%3e46%3b47575&UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved#bm5441a3be-99a1-40a7-8cc9-35b38eaddd08)**
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
> From: Patrick Draine
> Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Harry, you wrote "**please i m the freshman in piano, haha.**" Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's **Pianos Inside Out** is quite comprehensive, etc.
> There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
> Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.
>
> ------------------------------
> Patrick Draine
> Billerica MA
> 978-663-9690
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You are receiving this notification because you followed the 'Aid i took after using WD40' message thread. If you do not wish to follow this, please click [here](https://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/Common/Unfollow.aspx?UserKey=77d15031-d289-4550-bee4-98c70f726870&sKey=KeyRemoved&ItemKey=a0e9f803-cb08-4dc3-bed0-fa4f08b1d9bb). Update your [email preferences](https://my.ptg.org/go.aspx?c=Preferences§ion=email) to choose the types of email you receive
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Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 3:58:00 PM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------
</mail@connectedcommunity.org>

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 9:41:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, NEVER use WD-40 on a piano. NEVER NEVER NEVER.
Please.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 21:10
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Sorry to ask ,if i didnt get you wrong.
Do you mean you ever put a judicious amount of WD40 into the tuning pin holes before you installed the new pins?



> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:59 PM
> From: "David Pinnegar via Piano Technicians Guild" <mail@connectedcommunity.org>
> To: nikesolid@mail.com
> Subject: RE: [PTG Pianotech] : Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40. Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with... -posted to the "Pianotech" communitya { color: #000000; } a:link { text-decoration:underline; } a:visited { text-decoration:underline;} a:hover { color: #000000; text-decoration:none; } a:active { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:link { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:visited { text-decoration:none; } .buttons a:hover { text-decoration:underline; } .buttons a:active { text-decoration:underline; } .msglink a { color: #FFFFFF; } .remove-embedded-content { mso-hide: all; max-height:0; font-size:0; } .uconBody a { color:blue; } .uconBody a:link { text-decoration:underline; } .uconBody a:visited { text-decoration:underline; } .bquote { background: #fafafa; border-left: 5px solid #ebebeb; margin: 1.5em 10px 1.5em 20px; padding: 0.5em 10px; quotes: "\201C""\201D""\2018""\2019"; } .bquote:before { color: #ccc; content: open-quote; font-size: 4em; line-height:0.1em; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-right: 5px; } .bquote p { display: inline; font-weight: normal; font-size: 11.5px; font-weight: 300; line-height:1.25; } .bqFooter { text-align:right; font-size: 80%; margin-top: 5px; } .bqFooter:after { color: #ccc; content: close-quote; font-size: 5em; line-height:0; vertical-align: -0.4em; margin-left: 5px; } @media (max-width: 480px) {.img-responsive { display:block; max-width:100%; width:100% !important; height:auto !important; }} Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login. ---
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> Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.
> Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.
> The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.
> We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.
> We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.
> A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems.
> Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.
> Best wishes
> David P
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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> Original Message:
> Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
> From: Patrick Draine
> Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40
>
> Harry, you wrote "**please i m the freshman in piano, haha.**" Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's **Pianos Inside Out** is quite comprehensive, etc.
> There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
> Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.
>
> ------------------------------
> Patrick Draine
> Billerica MA
> 978-663-9690
> ------------------------------
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Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 3:58:00 PM
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Harry, both the string condition and the crack look extremely superficial. Please take suggestion above to study piano technology both to assess problems and definitely before you leap into action. Hopefully then you won't have any more sleepless nights.
There is a product called Poleta Steel Polish made to polish strings and remove rust. It is a DRY piece of rubber, like an eraser, impregnated with emory. But in fact from the pictures everything seems highly polished already, keeping the strings dust free will help a lot in keeping it this way.
Someone above also used the word obsessing, as you learn more about pianos you will be able to put things into perspective and avoid doing harm to the instrument. There is a great deal to learn about the piano and the wood that goes into it.
The general rule is to keep any type of liquid, especially if it is a lubricant away from the tuning pins. And really, any lubricant not specifically made for piano use away from the piano in general.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 17:23
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Thanks for your kind help,really helpful.


------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 20:50
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, both the string condition and the crack look extremely superficial. Please take suggestion above to study piano technology both to assess problems and definitely before you leap into action. Hopefully then you won't have any more sleepless nights.
There is a product called Poleta Steel Polish made to polish strings and remove rust. It is a DRY piece of rubber, like an eraser, impregnated with emory. But in fact from the pictures everything seems highly polished already, keeping the strings dust free will help a lot in keeping it this way.
Someone above also used the word obsessing, as you learn more about pianos you will be able to put things into perspective and avoid doing harm to the instrument. There is a great deal to learn about the piano and the wood that goes into it.
The general rule is to keep any type of liquid, especially if it is a lubricant away from the tuning pins. And really, any lubricant not specifically made for piano use away from the piano in general.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 17:23
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 11:19:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Thanks for your kind help,really helpful.

will the product be easy to clean the rust between gaps? thx

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 20:50
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, both the string condition and the crack look extremely superficial. Please take suggestion above to study piano technology both to assess problems and definitely before you leap into action. Hopefully then you won't have any more sleepless nights.
There is a product called Poleta Steel Polish made to polish strings and remove rust. It is a DRY piece of rubber, like an eraser, impregnated with emory. But in fact from the pictures everything seems highly polished already, keeping the strings dust free will help a lot in keeping it this way.
Someone above also used the word obsessing, as you learn more about pianos you will be able to put things into perspective and avoid doing harm to the instrument. There is a great deal to learn about the piano and the wood that goes into it.
The general rule is to keep any type of liquid, especially if it is a lubricant away from the tuning pins. And really, any lubricant not specifically made for piano use away from the piano in general.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 17:23
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Hello Harry,
As you test and re-test the torque on your lubricated pin, exercising it back in forth, you are helping your WD-40 do it's job of reducing friction. 

I would stop
Fenton

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 07:39
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Ha! Yes I quite agree! But soft steel pins rusted into a steel wrest plank and with likelihood of fracture, which they subsequently did (oblong pins by the way, not modern squares which are harder) . . . and one has a recipe for being between a rock and a hard place. Then a problem of attempts to extract the rusted in stubs by drilling and using a screw extractor . . . 

It was extremely lucky that these pins were on two bass single strings, and as a result we had space to drill the two new holes and tap them appropriately and in a vaguely appropriate placement. Were the snapped and rusted pins to have been in an area of double or triple pins.

So yes - arguably irresponsible but in that situation arguably a difficult one.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Hello Fenton,
how  are you?
when it comes to tuning ,  that lubricated pin is still jumping .
with my testing, the movement range is limited,
barely can be noticed with our eyes.

what you said is right ,
but as it has dried already (over 1 week) ,so my testing wont effect this situation .(i hope so)


I wasnt that nervous before ,but after googling  many  people post their unfortunate experience with WD 40,that is the time to panic.

I m also feeling shocked by the power of WD40.

.........
best regards,
Harry

  
posting 




------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 11:26
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Harry,
As you test and re-test the torque on your lubricated pin, exercising it back in forth, you are helping your WD-40 do it's job of reducing friction. 

I would stop
Fenton

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 07:39
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Ha! Yes I quite agree! But soft steel pins rusted into a steel wrest plank and with likelihood of fracture, which they subsequently did (oblong pins by the way, not modern squares which are harder) . . . and one has a recipe for being between a rock and a hard place. Then a problem of attempts to extract the rusted in stubs by drilling and using a screw extractor . . . 

It was extremely lucky that these pins were on two bass single strings, and as a result we had space to drill the two new holes and tap them appropriately and in a vaguely appropriate placement. Were the snapped and rusted pins to have been in an area of double or triple pins.

So yes - arguably irresponsible but in that situation arguably a difficult one.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/18/2020 12:57:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Fenton,
how  are you?
when it comes to tuning ,  that lubricated pin is still jumping .
with my testing, the movement range is limited,
barely can be noticed with our eyes.

what you said is right ,
but as it has dried already (over 1 week) ,so my testing wont effect this situation .(i hope so)


I wasnt that nervous before ,but after googling  many  people post their unfortunate experience with WD 40,that is the time to panic.

I m also feeling shocked by the power of WD40.

.........
best regards,
Harry

  
posting 




------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 11:26
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Harry,
As you test and re-test the torque on your lubricated pin, exercising it back in forth, you are helping your WD-40 do it's job of reducing friction. 

I would stop
Fenton

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 07:39
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Ha! Yes I quite agree! But soft steel pins rusted into a steel wrest plank and with likelihood of fracture, which they subsequently did (oblong pins by the way, not modern squares which are harder) . . . and one has a recipe for being between a rock and a hard place. Then a problem of attempts to extract the rusted in stubs by drilling and using a screw extractor . . . 

It was extremely lucky that these pins were on two bass single strings, and as a result we had space to drill the two new holes and tap them appropriately and in a vaguely appropriate placement. Were the snapped and rusted pins to have been in an area of double or triple pins.

So yes - arguably irresponsible but in that situation arguably a difficult one.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

i m crying,( 
i doubt if i should replace that pin bushing.To stop further pollution on the pin block.
Based on  what i ve found on google and posts on forum,
i regret to invite this evil to help removing rust.

((

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2020 00:17
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hi, Harry

You say it has already "dried" over a week, which omits the main problem --- about a quarter of it is mineral oil, which doesn't "do" drying out. Gumming up, perhaps, that would take a lot longer than a week.

It's a "secret formula", but here is what Wikipedia says is in it:

Formulation

WD-40's formula is a trade secret, and has not changed over the years, according to historian Iris Engstrand.^[3]

To avoid disclosing its composition, the product was not patented in 1953, and the window of opportunity for patenting it has long since closed.^[7]

WD-40's main ingredients as supplied in aerosol cans, according to the US Material Safety Data Sheet information,^[14] and with the CAS numbers interpreted:^[15]

• 45-50??% low vapor pressure aliphatic hydrocarbon (isoparaffin)
• <35% petroleum base oil (non hazardous heavy paraffins)
• <25% aliphatic hydrocarbons (same CAS number as the first item, but flammable)
• 2-3% carbon dioxide (propellant)

The UK (and EU) formulation is stated^[16] according to the REACH regulations:

• 60-80% hydrocarbons C9-C11 n-alkanes, iso-alkanes, cyclics <2% aromatics
• 1-5% carbon dioxide

The Australian formulation is stated ^[17] as

• 50-60% Naphtha (Petroleum), hydrotreated heavy
• <25% Petroleum Base Oils
• <10% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrodesulfurized heavy (contains: 1,2,4-Trimethyl benzene, 1,3,5-Trimethyl benzene, Xylene, Mixed Isomers)
• 2-4% Carbon Dioxide

In 2009, Wired published an article with the results of gas chromatography and mass spectrometry tests on WD-40, showing that the principal components were C₉ to C₁₄ alkanes and mineral oil.^[18]

Original Message:
Sent: 9/18/2020 12:57:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Fenton,
how  are you?
when it comes to tuning ,  that lubricated pin is still jumping .
with my testing, the movement range is limited,
barely can be noticed with our eyes.

what you said is right ,
but as it has dried already (over 1 week) ,so my testing wont effect this situation .(i hope so)


I wasnt that nervous before ,but after googling  many  people post their unfortunate experience with WD 40,that is the time to panic.

I m also feeling shocked by the power of WD40.

.........
best regards,
Harry


posting




------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 11:26
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Harry,
As you test and re-test the torque on your lubricated pin, exercising it back in forth, you are helping your WD-40 do it's job of reducing friction. 

I would stop
Fenton

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 07:39
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Ha! Yes I quite agree! But soft steel pins rusted into a steel wrest plank and with likelihood of fracture, which they subsequently did (oblong pins by the way, not modern squares which are harder) . . . and one has a recipe for being between a rock and a hard place. Then a problem of attempts to extract the rusted in stubs by drilling and using a screw extractor . . . 

It was extremely lucky that these pins were on two bass single strings, and as a result we had space to drill the two new holes and tap them appropriately and in a vaguely appropriate placement. Were the snapped and rusted pins to have been in an area of double or triple pins.

So yes - arguably irresponsible but in that situation arguably a difficult one.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/20/2020 3:28:00 AM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

i m crying,( 
i doubt if i should replace that pin bushing.To stop further pollution on the pin block.
Based on  what i ve found on google and posts on forum,
i regret to invite this evil to help removing rust.

((

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2020 00:17
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hi, Harry

You say it has already "dried" over a week, which omits the main problem --- about a quarter of it is mineral oil, which doesn't "do" drying out. Gumming up, perhaps, that would take a lot longer than a week.

It's a "secret formula", but here is what Wikipedia says is in it:

Formulation

WD-40's formula is a trade secret, and has not changed over the years, according to historian Iris Engstrand.^[3]

To avoid disclosing its composition, the product was not patented in 1953, and the window of opportunity for patenting it has long since closed.^[7]

WD-40's main ingredients as supplied in aerosol cans, according to the US Material Safety Data Sheet information,^[14] and with the CAS numbers interpreted:^[15]

• 45-50??% low vapor pressure aliphatic hydrocarbon (isoparaffin)
• <35% petroleum base oil (non hazardous heavy paraffins)
• <25% aliphatic hydrocarbons (same CAS number as the first item, but flammable)
• 2-3% carbon dioxide (propellant)

The UK (and EU) formulation is stated^[16] according to the REACH regulations:

• 60-80% hydrocarbons C9-C11 n-alkanes, iso-alkanes, cyclics <2% aromatics
• 1-5% carbon dioxide

The Australian formulation is stated ^[17] as

• 50-60% Naphtha (Petroleum), hydrotreated heavy
• <25% Petroleum Base Oils
• <10% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrodesulfurized heavy (contains: 1,2,4-Trimethyl benzene, 1,3,5-Trimethyl benzene, Xylene, Mixed Isomers)
• 2-4% Carbon Dioxide

In 2009, Wired published an article with the results of gas chromatography and mass spectrometry tests on WD-40, showing that the principal components were C₉ to C₁₄ alkanes and mineral oil.^[18]

Original Message:
Sent: 9/18/2020 12:57:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Fenton,
how  are you?
when it comes to tuning ,  that lubricated pin is still jumping .
with my testing, the movement range is limited,
barely can be noticed with our eyes.

what you said is right ,
but as it has dried already (over 1 week) ,so my testing wont effect this situation .(i hope so)


I wasnt that nervous before ,but after googling  many  people post their unfortunate experience with WD 40,that is the time to panic.

I m also feeling shocked by the power of WD40.

.........
best regards,
Harry


posting




------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 11:26
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Harry,
As you test and re-test the torque on your lubricated pin, exercising it back in forth, you are helping your WD-40 do it's job of reducing friction. 

I would stop
Fenton

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 07:39
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Ha! Yes I quite agree! But soft steel pins rusted into a steel wrest plank and with likelihood of fracture, which they subsequently did (oblong pins by the way, not modern squares which are harder) . . . and one has a recipe for being between a rock and a hard place. Then a problem of attempts to extract the rusted in stubs by drilling and using a screw extractor . . . 

It was extremely lucky that these pins were on two bass single strings, and as a result we had space to drill the two new holes and tap them appropriately and in a vaguely appropriate placement. Were the snapped and rusted pins to have been in an area of double or triple pins.

So yes - arguably irresponsible but in that situation arguably a difficult one.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/20/2020 3:28:00 AM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

i m crying,( 
i doubt if i should replace that pin bushing.To stop further pollution on the pin block.
Based on  what i ve found on google and posts on forum,
i regret to invite this evil to help removing rust.

((

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2020 00:17
From: Susan Kline
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hi, Harry

You say it has already "dried" over a week, which omits the main problem --- about a quarter of it is mineral oil, which doesn't "do" drying out. Gumming up, perhaps, that would take a lot longer than a week.

It's a "secret formula", but here is what Wikipedia says is in it:

Formulation

WD-40's formula is a trade secret, and has not changed over the years, according to historian Iris Engstrand.^[3]

To avoid disclosing its composition, the product was not patented in 1953, and the window of opportunity for patenting it has long since closed.^[7]

WD-40's main ingredients as supplied in aerosol cans, according to the US Material Safety Data Sheet information,^[14] and with the CAS numbers interpreted:^[15]

• 45-50??% low vapor pressure aliphatic hydrocarbon (isoparaffin)
• <35% petroleum base oil (non hazardous heavy paraffins)
• <25% aliphatic hydrocarbons (same CAS number as the first item, but flammable)
• 2-3% carbon dioxide (propellant)

The UK (and EU) formulation is stated^[16] according to the REACH regulations:

• 60-80% hydrocarbons C9-C11 n-alkanes, iso-alkanes, cyclics <2% aromatics
• 1-5% carbon dioxide

The Australian formulation is stated ^[17] as

• 50-60% Naphtha (Petroleum), hydrotreated heavy
• <25% Petroleum Base Oils
• <10% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrodesulfurized heavy (contains: 1,2,4-Trimethyl benzene, 1,3,5-Trimethyl benzene, Xylene, Mixed Isomers)
• 2-4% Carbon Dioxide

In 2009, Wired published an article with the results of gas chromatography and mass spectrometry tests on WD-40, showing that the principal components were C₉ to C₁₄ alkanes and mineral oil.^[18]

Original Message:
Sent: 9/18/2020 12:57:00 PM
From: Harry Dane
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Fenton,
how  are you?
when it comes to tuning ,  that lubricated pin is still jumping .
with my testing, the movement range is limited,
barely can be noticed with our eyes.

what you said is right ,
but as it has dried already (over 1 week) ,so my testing wont effect this situation .(i hope so)


I wasnt that nervous before ,but after googling  many  people post their unfortunate experience with WD 40,that is the time to panic.

I m also feeling shocked by the power of WD40.

.........
best regards,
Harry


posting




------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 11:26
From: S. Fenton Murray
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Hello Harry,
As you test and re-test the torque on your lubricated pin, exercising it back in forth, you are helping your WD-40 do it's job of reducing friction. 

I would stop
Fenton

------------------------------
Fenton Murray, RPT

Fenton

Original Message:
Sent: 09-18-2020 07:39
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Ha! Yes I quite agree! But soft steel pins rusted into a steel wrest plank and with likelihood of fracture, which they subsequently did (oblong pins by the way, not modern squares which are harder) . . . and one has a recipe for being between a rock and a hard place. Then a problem of attempts to extract the rusted in stubs by drilling and using a screw extractor . . . 

It was extremely lucky that these pins were on two bass single strings, and as a result we had space to drill the two new holes and tap them appropriately and in a vaguely appropriate placement. Were the snapped and rusted pins to have been in an area of double or triple pins.

So yes - arguably irresponsible but in that situation arguably a difficult one.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/17/2020 5:23:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

David P. wrote "We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation". My stance is that WD40 has ruined many piano components over the years, and it must be avoided.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-17-2020 15:41
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I read it twice,i got it.
you mean the WD40 has deeply infected the wood,and made the wood unable to hold those new pins still.
 Btw,what is amount of WD40,you metioned it is appropriate.
to be more accurate,how much plz

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 15:57
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

Actually I have an unfortunate experience in using WD40.

Many of the late 19th century Broadwoods used a metal plate above the wrestplank with tapped wrestpins.

The 1869 instrument had been kept in an unheated room in a stone-walled house without moving air. For some reason the very bass end of the instrument, possibly being in the corner, was damper than the rest and two bass wrestpins were rusted in place. We tried a judicious amount of WD40, arguably appropriate in a rust situation, and they didn't move. In fact they broke off. We tried using screw extractors and they didn't respond. We ended up having to drill two new holes in the cast iron, threading them, and drilling the appropriate holes in the wooden wrestplank below.

We were careful and judicious in our choice of drill sizes. But the new holes have continued to give problems and it might be that the WD40 has crept into the wood. I used shellac in the holes, CA, reversed sandpaper, and the pins are just about satisfactory. But the bottom line is that the WD40 although seemingly excusable in this difficult circumstance, did its fair share of no-good. Or perhaps our holes we drilled were a touch on the too-large size. The pins are tunable - just.

We've "got away" with the repair but I'm less than wholly comfortable about it.

A potential dispersant of the WD40 might be acetone or dry-cleaning fluid but no doubt that might bring its own problems. 

Best advice in this circumstance is to see how it goes, and deal with whatever problem that might develop when it does.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message:
Sent: 9/16/2020 2:04:00 PM
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: RE: Aid i took after using WD40

Harry, you wrote "please i m the freshman in piano, haha." Pianos are complex, and hardware store solutions (and reliance on YouTube) are not appropriate. Please take the time to read appropriate texts: Jim Busby has a series on iBooks, for example; Mario Igrec's Pianos Inside Out is quite comprehensive, etc.
There are opportunities to study piano service in person (Boston's North Bennet Street School's 1 and 2 year programs, for example), correspondence courses, online training (Rick Butler), etc. One may apprentice in a piano shop too.
Please learn more before damaging your own or others' pianos.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 09-16-2020 11:12
From: Harry Dane
Subject: Aid i took after using WD40

I still have some questions to ask,if you dont mind.(please only rely to me when you aren't busy.^^)

the 1st question:

I notice the hairline cracks trend to be developed on the bass bridge.There was only 1 very tiny one 3 months ago,now i found another one elsewhere but wtill on the bass part of it.
So i might be wondering if i could make it better.
What if i brush some thin coating of clear epoxy?
like gorilla glue clear epoxy .how could that be?Will i make the cracks worse or that is a optional choice?
please i m the freshman in piano, haha.


The 2nd question : (forgive me if i didnt say it concisely,plz)

The other day,i found some of my piano's strings got rusty looking.
It is a grand piano ,which i bought 3 months ago.
Without googling the negative effect ,i picked up the wrong rust remover ,WD 40.

i sank my swabs into WD40 and apply it then to the rusty areas.

One area is very close to the tuning pin.
Though i was very careful,but i still made 1 drop or so (probably less than that amount ) leak into that tuning bushing.

As i googled WD40 late on,i realized probably i just made a big mistake.That night i didnt even sleep,(

I was curious to know how bad it could be .At least,if i could something .i turned to the Youtube for help,where i found your videos post there.It is really a informative one.I bought a torque
wrench and an adopter and a tip to build my testing tool.
Here is a photo of my testing tool.

And today,i test that tuning pin to find out how much force to twist.

HERE IS MY QUESTION TO ASK ,PLEASE ^^

I do find on that polluted pin ,less force is required to make a slight pitch drop on the relative string.

(Because in the video you post,you dont mention if it should be twist on the clockwise direction or counterclockwise direction.
i do measure both sides of them.)

!!
The question is that i found the figure isnt a constant !

when i tune that polluted pin without a pitch raise first then to the right pitch,
both figures are very high.

Those are 11.4 NM(100.89inch pounds) for counterclockwise.
to lose string.
and 14NM(123inch pounds) for the clockwise direction.

But when i tune that polluted pin from 25 cents flat then turn it back to normal.

With the torque wrench test ,i find those figure getting lower.

7.5NM( 66.37 inchpounds) to make the pitch slightly drop
9.7 NM(85.84 inchpounds) to make the pin move visual obviously.
Surely both 7.5 and 9.7 are referring in the counterclockwise direction.

and 10.7NM(94.69inchpounds) to move at the clockwise direction. (pitch up)


As i learnt ,70 inchpounds is the marginal point .
is that 66.37 too low for that,and this is my new piano,could i be worse as time goes.


i have almost test all of my bass strings today, normally on other pins the figure is

90 inch pounds for counter clockwise direction and
110 inchpounds for clockwise direction.



Do you think the WD40 really ruins my pin block,though i didnt spray it on.
Is that WD 40 makes that polluted pin more easier to be "tuned"

(i didnt measure before,so i couldnt know what the force was on that polluted pin.)

Please help to diagnosing it.
Much thanks,

Harry

------------------------------
Harry Dane
New York NY
764789557
------------------------------