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"black verdigris"

  • 1.  "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2021 21:14
    This is from a late '80s Yamaha C5.  If the stuff in the flange were green, I'd say "verdigris', but it's black... Are any of you familiar with this? One thought is that a shade tree tooner used a syringe and put liquid graphite on all the hammer flanges, but I doubt that's it.  Hammers sampled  have 1 to 3 swings. Appears to be in all the flanges. Thoughts/Insights/Ideas appreciated.  Thanks in Advance.1980s Yamaha grand hammer flange


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    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
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  • 2.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-15-2021 21:30
    When I see black, my first thought is always mold, but if it's only there that's probably not it. Good luck!

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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2021 10:15

    Yamaha used a bushing cloth that had graphite on one side. You are probably looking at graphite. 

    'Stewart 



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    Stewart Freedman, RPT
    Freedman Piano Service
    Akron, OH
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Posted 10-16-2021 12:33
    I've come across this and figured it was graphite.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2021 16:02
    Like Renner...and they seize up too!

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2021 20:15
    So, if it's graphite, I should be able to <just> replace flanges [maybe ream out the shanks?] ???

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    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 10-16-2021 20:53
    i would remove some samples, depin and debush and examine the pins and bushings under bright light and magnification. i am not sure but i thought i read graphite cuts into the pin and the ragged metal hangs up on the bushing cloth. teflon might have been the better choice but if yamaha did use something in their cloth its the first time I have ever heard that. pinning on Yamaha hammer flanges seems to be on the looser end 6-7 grams. 1 to 3 grams is way tight. while you are at it you should check the jacks and rep lever flanges someone before you may have gone through the entire piano . better to test it now before you end up owning it. i have run into the plating /bushings issues on many young chang grands and customers do not react to the news to well when told what the problem is and what it would take to fix. you would need to rebush and repin all of the hammer flanges as a minimum. if the hammers and knuckles are worn it would be better to go with new hammers/shanks/flanges and knuckles.

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-16-2021 21:07
    James,
    Yes, I need to check the other flanges, the hammers and knuckles are in good shape [ some mild shaping has been recommended]. If I'm replacing the hammer flanges, inspecting pins and bushings won't tell me anything new.  I think you meant swings, not grams. What I gave were field test swings, not grams, at 1-3 swings, I suspect the grams readings would be rather high. My recollection is 4-6 swings for Yamaha is about right.
    Sheffey

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    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Member
    Posted 10-17-2021 00:06
    inspecting the cloth and pins could reveal why the swings are so low . if other bushings have black on them they too can be a problem . the swing test is a fast test so 1 to three is low. it is more accurate to use the spring gram gauge and i use the following guide  Hammer flanges 5-8 grams; 3-5 on whippen flanges,
    1-3 grams on the jack with spring out and 4-7grams  on the rep lever post with the spring out . if you are replacing the hammer flanges it will not matter but the problem could be in all the other places. maybe protek, clp can help with those but i would tell the customer what you are doing . maybe someone knows if yamaha ever treated their bushing cloth . the issue with seizing action centers on young changs and i believe samicks is well known . i have had mild cases but also some severe cases in which nearly every action center seized- not always at the same time.

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2021 08:04

    Sheffey,
    Before you get too far into the weeds…have you tried to lube one of the flanges to see if that does the trick? You can also try to wet the bushing with denatured alcohol or Everclear(200proof), let it thoroughly dry, then apply a lube. Use a hair dryer to speed things up. Water will shrink the bushing, I would use alcohol that has the least amount of water that you can find. There are posts out there about this, as well as articles from the PTG and Steinway. 

    Stewart 



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    Stewart Freedman, RPT
    Freedman Piano Service
    Akron, OH
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Posted 10-17-2021 09:22
    I'm remembering a Yamaha grand of this vintage I sold. I had many warranty calls to address sluggish notes. Repinning was a temporary fix. I think I read that graphite is hydroscopic. Around here, that does not fly. I had to stop using Renner parts for that reason.  I'm on to WNG now...

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-17-2021 12:54
    I did de-pin C8, but I was mostly looking to see if perhaps the pins themselves were non-standard.  I could tell that flange at least had been repinned in the past, since one end of the pin was cut.  When I put it back together I dosed it with CLP and it was still very tight.
    All of the hammers I took off for the swing tests and all of the section end hammers had the blackened bushings, and I could see it on some of the others as well, so it is rather uniform.  I was taught if 6 or more present a problem, it's time to replace them all.  So, that is certainly true in this case.  I have emailed the customer that I want to come take a further look, mostly so I can check the other flanges.  I'm confident the seller will cover the cost of at least replacing flanges, and probably the hammer shaping. I've dealt with him several times and he has been quick to make any improvements/corrections I found in the past. Somewhere around the house we have some Everclear, but wouldn't that be a temporary fix?  Roger Jolly says graphite is hydroscopic, I tend to believe him.   So, if the black is graphite, it will continue to be a problem.   Thanks for all the input, it is appreciated.

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    Sheffey Gregory, RPT
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2021 08:07
    Evidently graphite is very hygroscopic. If I had it here I would first try spraying it with automotive starting fluid (soaking) and immediately hit it with compressed air to see if it was at all dissolvable and possibly get some out that way first. 

    If not I would try the same routine on the disassembled parts to try to get it out that way. Then repin as needed. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2021 11:42
    Sheffey, I have run across this in Yamaha pianos and I don't believe that this would have been applied after the factory, that doesn't mean that someone else did not treat the flange centers with something else.  If this is your first time at this piano I would have checked the climate that the piano is in for high humidity and if this is the case drying the action with a hair dryer might be a temporary or long term solution. If you can prove to your customer that the humidity most likely caused this, they might do more to protect their piano from high humidity.  Also this problem should be in other centers of the action if the humidity is the case.  

    In my experience with Yamaha pianos I have not found the action to gunk up unless an unknowing technician has created more problems.  Renner action centers not from the modern Steinway action seem to have a lot of this gunking up and if they are re pinned or pinned with nickel plated center pins the plating will work its way off.  And in my opinion where surgical steel center pins are used with the graphite impregnated 
    center pins, this metal seems to react with the coating on the cloth.  Again I've never seen this problem in a Yamaha. 

    By the way did you know that graphite pencils are not made with just graphite?  When manufactured they add a clay to the graphite to make a rod of graphite + to insert into the wood stick.   I just found an article from 1943;  "Graphite like oil should be used sparingly.   In humid weather it will squeak badly if too much is applied.   It is Graphite and Tallow used in some brands on the repetition lever spring contact points.  That becomes hard and dries out into a sticky mess and causes extra friction." 

    Jessica Masse RPT

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    Jessica Masse RPT
    Western Michigan University
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2021 12:27
    Jessica said:  I just found an article from 1943;  "Graphite like oil should be used sparingly.   In humid weather it will squeak badly if too much is applied.   It is Graphite and Tallow used in some brands on the repetition lever spring contact points.  That becomes hard and dries out into a sticky mess and causes extra friction." 

    Richard replies: The article you found from 1943 should tell the Journal staff where they might look to find articles for current Journals. I'd certainly enjoy seeing some of those articles for both technical info and for the possible historical slant on things. A monthly "looking back" article would be okay by me. 

    Richard West



    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-18-2021 15:08
    The Article was from The Tuners' Digest of the American Society of Piano Tuner-Technicians Inc.  November 1943 No. 12 pg 7.  Not from PTG Journal.   It cost $1.50 per year was12 pages and a APSCO tool box cost $12.50 imagine that.  I found this information interesting because people still today are doing what the article mentions.   Using too much Graphite in the wrong places.  Please don't put it on the knuckles? Yes I've heard squeaking flanges at the center pins because of too much graphite. 
    Jessica Masse



    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2021 08:14
    Good advice about graphite, Jessica. Please don’t use it for grand keyframe glides either, anyone. I learned long ago to be careful to see what may have been applied to the keyed before sliding out a grand action.

    Bob Anderson
    Tucson, AZ


    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: "black verdigris"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-19-2021 08:21
    Nothing like putting graphite contaminated action on a client's white carpet! Happened 40 years ago before I resolved to always use my moving pad to protect the floor. No charge for the tuning and I paid for carpet cleaning.

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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    Original Message