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calling all lefties

  • 1.  calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2019 18:55
    Hi all!

    Long story short, I shredded my right rotator cuff the beginning of June & have since been tuning left handed. (I'm right handed.)  I took to it much faster than I expected and am getting extremely comfortable with uprights, but I'm still feeling slightly awkward with grands. I can't stand while tuning grands (neck injury) & was wondering if any lefties out there would send me pictures of how they sit & work their tuning lever. If I see how others are doing it, I might get ideas for how to improve my technique. It's functional right now, but definitely not good enough to continue long term.

    Thanks!

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-07-2019 20:25
    Man, I'm sorry to hear about that problem!  I had a similar problem a few years ago and found that the muscles developed in my right shoulder to compensate eventually, but it took a very long time.  The interesting thing is that now I can tune verticals and grands right handed like I used to do, but I still can't eat right handed.  You have my thoughts and prayers, even though that's considered a useless phrase anymore.  In my world though, it's not.  Thoughts and prayers are still something I covet when given by people who know the meaning of the words.   Ted

    ------------------------------
    Ted Rohde
    Central Illinois
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2019 21:01
    I use the Levitan C lever on grands and Rayburn impact lever on verticals.

     I'm also going to physical therapy for my right shoulder instead of jumping into surgery. I notice some improvement.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-07-2019 21:50
    A couple of thoughts...

    I'm a lefty, but comfortably ambidextrous.  I tune grands both lefty and righty, and am comfortable tuning either way. Which hand I use, is determined by the particular piano, depending on whether the pin flex working in the push mode (lefty) or pull mode (rightly) suits that pianos' rendering conditions better.

    I do not use any arm or shoulder movement at all...none.  I needed to develop a technique which suited my not so robust upper body musculature. So I eliminated the upper torso motion entirely. I had Charles Faulk make me a custom long lever, with a thin handle...5 deg head (10 deg for some Asian or European grands).

    Using my hand, not my arms, but hands and fingers, I lever it off of stable things like plate struts and anything I can get my hands on in the piano. Its really a finger movement. The losses inherent in arm and shoulder movements are eliminated, with this techique. Losses and mushy-ness inherent in shoulder upper torso movements really are both hard on the shoulder and back, and for me much harder to control with extreme precision, compared to the highly controlled movement which is stabilized by the cast iron.  It makes extremely precise movements of the lever effortless (for me).  Its slower than impact style shoulder movements, for sure, but since I figured out how to do this, I absolutely never use anything resembling a shoulder pull or arm/shoulder impact. Tunings are very stable.

    The long skinny handle allows the lever to get up close to struts so I can get my fingers on the strut and the lever comfortably. I will make a video if you would like.  

    If you have not used Claire Davies Trigger point self treatment protocols and diagnosis, I highly recommend it, to deal with the shoulder issues. I never go anywhere without my Theracane and lacross ball. Understanding the mechanics of the musculature has not only fixed very long standing shoulder immobility for me, but has also allowed me at 65 to develop appropriate musculatures which eluded me in my mis-spent youth. If you get the Davies book, in order to avoid being overwhelmed, read the first 4 chapters as you would a book, then go back and read it again, before progressing to specific treatment parts of the book.  https://www.amazon.com/Frozen-Shoulder-Workbook-Overcoming-Regaining/dp/157224447X

    Let me know if a video would be useful...and don't give up. My experience is that this kind of thing, given the proper self analysis, and myofacial work, can get you past lifelong misuse and enable one to develop new sustainable patterns of muscle use. 


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-07-2019 23:17
    I'm so glad I asked! Let me respond to these in order...

    Ted - Thank you. I'm not overly worried about it yet. I've been in physical therapy my whole life for joint issues, particularly shoulder. I know the drill and started PT on my own after the swelling went down from the injury. I'm incredibly grateful I didn't blow both shoulders, because I could have.

    Larry - I was just talking with Dan Levitan about his basic hammer! His C style helping my left hand didn't even occur to me. Thanks! I think I'll try it!

    Jim - Thanks! Here's an irony for you: I'm ridiculously strong, but the reason I'm so strong is because I've been in PT since around 11 years old. I have a joint issue in which my ligaments act a bit like dried up rubber bands. I had trouble with frequent dislocations until I built my strength up. My shoulders have always been the most problematic and I never gained full control of keeping them in place. The new problem is that as I've aged, my ligaments have become more brittle and are actually tearing now instead of stretching. Because of my past subluxation/dislocation problems, I actually tune very much like you describe, except with my right hand. I can't seem to wrap my head around doing the same thing with my left. I have an old extension hammer I might play with and see if that helps me think outside of this box. My mom put me through massage therapy school so I could learn more about how to take care of myself, so I'm quite familiar with trigger point therapy and I also own a theracane. Love that thing. The problem isn't muscle pain right now; it's my shoulder popping out so easily that it keeps the injury from even thinking about healing. I can use my hand as long as I keep my elbow near my side, but I have to be extra careful if I lift that elbow. Subluxations used to carry minimal pain for me. This is different.  I have more doctor appointments scheduled. If I don't have to have surgery, I won't, but I don't know yet. For the moment, PT and caution are bringing improvements, albeit small. I can actually (carefully) lift my arm now which I couldn't do 10 weeks ago. If you have a picture of yourself working with your left hand, I wouldn't mind! Thanks so much!

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-08-2019 07:20
    I will try to get a picture Friday when I am tuning left-handed. I am a right handed tuner, and also have shoulder problems. I am not as comfortable tuning left-handed, but I can do it pretty well.

    I have a Levitan C lever for sale if you or others are interested. Contact me privately.
    --
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany, MS





  • 7.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-08-2019 10:19
    Just uploaded a quickie video.  Its taken on a victim in the shop, so it shows me standing. I usually stand, lefty, during pitch raises and sit while doing the fine mostly righty pass. Not sure it will address your ligament issue, but presented for the effortless nature of the movement. The long stiff lever, with very minimal mushy-ness at the head connection is important both to the feel of the pin and application of forces to the pin.  


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2019 11:05

    Thank you so much for taking the time to do that, Jim!  I appreciate it extra for 2 reasons: 1) I've been tuning that way right handed for a long time but have been criticized for it. As far as I'm concerned, this is validation. LOL!  2) I can ask you how you might handle tuning left handed in the right handed position, like around 2:00ish. This is my problem. I might make a video of what I'm doing now so people can advise me better, but I won't have access to a grand for a bit. I've always had shoulder problems so have always been careful and have always used my hands as much as possible, but I'm definitely having a hard time thinking outside this box with my left hand on grands. Tuning verticals is pretty easy for me left handed.. I can also stand while tuning taller pianos. I MUST sit when tuning spinets or grands unless I want to be in a most exquisite pain. If you have any suggestions for left handed tuning in your right hand position, please share. Setting the pin and fine tuning is definitely harder left handed. Thank you so much!!!

    Thank you also, John; that would be great! :-)


    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-08-2019 13:43
    <I've been tuning that way right handed for a long time but have been criticized for it. As far as I'm concerned, this is validation. LOL!

    If one has an understanding of the forces that effect how much tension is in what I call the "stabilizing length", or front segment, ie string length between termination and pin, including all the friction points, and understands how the pin flexes in varying lever position/head angle positions, you could probably  tune with a 2 ft torque wrench, using your feet, while dancing the Schottish. The proof of stability is in the results...if its stable, it works.  Tuning in this way, for me, with my lever, gives me excellent stability and high precision in placement and tone shaping with stability. This is because I analyze each string's stabilizing length's conditions while I'm tuning.

    On the left hand/2:00  problem,  I just tried it and don't like the twisted-up-ness of it. I don't think I could keep that up for any length of time.  Instead, how about approaching it differently. I like to ease right handed for fine tuning and settling things, and generally don't get the control and stability from left handed, meaning 9:00-11:00 final movements. So lets look at why the right handed easing down works:

    Easing down from the 12:00-3:00 position, righty, the pin is unavoidably flexed towards the strings by the forces imparted by the orientation of the lever. When you let up on the tension, pin straightens out and adds a little charge of tension to the "stabilizing length".  The reason easing down from the 9:00-to 11:00 position, lefty, is harder, is that the pin is flexed away from the strings. Releasing the lever, lowers the charge in the stabilizing length. This lowered charge from pin flex is what doesn't work for me. Also, I have more control of the easing of the pin down, when the pin is leaning against the strings side of the hole in the block, righty. Easing down from the 9-11 position, removes that helpful friction in the front of the pin hole, and the easing is less controlled and sometimes too easy to move too much.

    So...try working lefty in the 9 to 11 position, but purposely add a little downward flex to the lever to flex the pin towards the strings. This may either neutralize the negative tension charge or maybe slightly charge it, depending on block torque. It might also allow you to use a little of that helpful friction in the front (string)side of the hole.  I'll try it later on and see if I can get stable results.   


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2019 14:43
    YES, YES, YES!!!  I'm so glad you understand EXACTLY what I'm working with. I have tried what you explained, and it HAS worked with some pianos, but others not so well. On the not so well ones, I've found I'm getting way to tense trying to get it to work and that's why I posted here. Force without tension is what I'm aiming for. I can do that some of the time, but most of the time I'm either ridiculously awkward or "clenching" muscles that don't need to be clenched. I'll play around with that some more since I've had luck with it about 1/4-1/3 of the time. Maybe I can develop it. If you come up with any more ideas, please share! I appreciate the help! :-)

    PS - It has been my experience that the method you describe does indeed create more stability.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-08-2019 15:12
    If the lever has head long enough so the lever handle can extend over the stretcher, towards your belly, you could try lefty, from 4:00-5:30. This will impart the necessary pin flex towards the strings automatically. However, you lose the ability to lever off the struts, which is a big down side. 

    On working from the 9:00-11:00 side, on the "not so well" pianos you describe above, why did it not work?  Is it a rendering problem? I suspect that may be the issue.

    If its a rendering problem, a problem which is almost endemic, especially if you tune a lot of older grands, change the way you shoot for your target. Meaning...don't try to get to target with a smooth motion and the string following nicely along. Instead, make very precise small movements of the pin, that you guestimate, then purposely flex the pin, without turning it, to ease the string over the hung up friction points. I suspect this is the reason the "not so well ones" are such a tense struggle, because the string simply will not follow the pin.  When working righty, easing down from 1:00-3:00, the lever flexing the pin, sometimes eases the string automatically, even on poorly rendering pianos. But, you lose this automatic flex on the 9:00-11:00 side. Guestimating lever and thus pin movement, and then flexing the pin until the string moves, is actually a much, less tense operation in these non-rendering pianos.  The good thing about non-rendering strings, is that is you get the pin foot in the ballpark, there is a wider zone where your flexed pin move will still keep the SL stable, because of that overly naughty friction.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-08-2019 20:52
    Maggie,
          The very first thing you should do without hesitation is buy Jon Pages bottle of CBL which is an extremely slick product that eliminates most rendering issues. It'll solve a lot of your tuning issues. I tune both lefty and righty due to several physical issues. So, I'm a "switch hitter". I can rotate only my wrist using my thumb as a fulcrum lefty, Tap, snatch, slap , pull, push and jerk the hammer righty or lefty, what ever it takes. But the biggest help has been Jon Pages slick stuff coupled with 5 degree head with a low profile number 2 tip. Tune on the attack pecking the note simultaneously with the lever movement. ​​


    ------------------------------
    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-09-2019 18:39
    Hopefully these videos will make it through OK. I uploaded them to YouTube rather than try to deal with Higher Logic.  One is from a grand piano, and the other is from a vertical with the Rayburn CyberHammer.

    This is on a Steinway L that was about 8 cents sharp. I have not worked that much with left handed tuning on pianos that are that sharp. It felt pretty awkward compared to pianos that are just a bit flat and closer to pitch, but in the words of Westley from The Princess Bride, "I am not left handed." ;). I need more practice left handed, but it's so slow compared to the right hand that I have gotten lazy. I probably should always do grand pitch raises with the left hand.

    Front view
    https://youtu.be/XVZRzlZlc-c

    Side view
    https://youtu.be/0Q8kLVMnZIY


    The following videos are from an older Gulbransen console and everything except the lowest 4 bass notes was tuned with a Reyburn CyberHammer vertical impact lever. Tuning pins have been treated with CA (about 4 years ago), and tuning is a bit tricky because the pins are a bit looser than we would prefer. Lots of contact between adjacent strings and tuning pins in the tuning pin area. Tuning good unisons is always a bit more difficult on this piano.

    First pass in tenor. Tuning unisons to the middle string.
    https://youtu.be/qVHANSH4dF4

    First pass in bass, then tuning unisons.
    https://youtu.be/C7iTgB-7lNk

    First pass tuning unisons in treble. I used my left hand first, then switched over to the right hand about halfway up the treble section.
    https://youtu.be/ekXq5m9VGfg

    For just about every tuning, I do a quick first pass like the above. Then a second pass, in which I am more precise with the unisons. Then a final check of the unisons.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2019 21:11
    I wouldlike to second Thomas's suggestion to acquire some of Jon Page's counter bearing lube. You will wonder how you ever got along without it. If you like Protek you will love this stuff. 

    I used it today on an Acrosonic console that usually gives me nightmares due to rust and wicked counterbearing angle. Lubed it up and it was a "pleasant" experience this time. 

    This can really make your life easier. He says it's like "power steering for your tuning hammer" and he's right. You won't regret it.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-09-2019 21:52
    Yes! It's great. I'm using it every tuning.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2019 23:49
    A "rendering problem" - now we're getting into stuff I don't know enough about. This could be very helpful. Today & tomorrow are long days, so I'll be back. I'll have to re-read what everyone said, look at videos, think... I'm sure I'll have a hundred questions but will be busy for a bit.

    Thank you all so much! :-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2019 13:25
    Maggie,

    The huge benefit of CBL is that it minimizes the amount of work and energy exertion to accomplish your task. Example:

    You have a string that "snaps" too high after you've been pulling on it for several seconds. Now you go the other way and it snaps back too far the other direction...rinse and repeat several times until finally you get the thing "pretty close" to where you want it. You've spent a minute or more on this thing and are totally frustrated, and still not totally sure it's going to stay put.

    Alternatively:

    Now you add CBL to the agraffe, felt, and any other counterbearings in existence. You pull the string and it snaps just once and then renders SMOOTHLY from then on, reacting instantly (or almost) to every movement of your hammer. You are done in 3-5 seconds and move on to the next one satisfied that it will stay put because you now had control of it. 

    Protek will do this, but "JP-Lube" (as I call it) works even better and lasts longer. Your energy output and stress level will come done several notches with this simple addition to your tool bag. 

    I have come to the conclusion that one of the main sources of irritation in this business is "un-cooperative" strings, particularly in older pianos that are set in their ways. JP-Lube levels the playing field so we can stop doubting our abilities and get down to fine tuning again with minimal stress.

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2019 19:15
    Finished work early! :-)

    OMG. So, I knew what "rendering" was but didn't know the term. However, I had no idea there was a fix for a rendering problem. I felt pretty stupid until I found out 2 of my tuning mates didn't know either. LOL!  I've been working my tooshie off developing my own technique for difficult pianos. I've actually gotten pretty good at it, IMO, but it does still take longer and it is frustrating. I was told years ago to keep all lube away from the strings. Someone told me more recently I could do this, but I've been too afraid.

    Jim - You are right! Dealing with this problem is easier for my left hand on uprights than grands, probably because of the angles involved. I guess practice is in order. Thank you for all the suggestions. I'll be playing around with them.

    All - I will order Jon Page's counter bearing lube. However, I'm extremely nervous about this. Can you reassure me a bit more? lol

    John - Thank you so much for taking the time to make videos. I noticed you are doing some of the things Jim described. I've been fine on uprights, but I may borrow a friend's Reyburn Cyberhammer just to try it out. I've only used one of those adjustable ones and I didn't care for it.  As far as grands, you've given me more ideas to play with. I have decided to get the Levitan C-shape, though. I think this will make my life a lot easier, but we'll see.

    I really appreciate the help. :-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2019 20:28
    Maggie,

    The only thing you need to watch out for is DON'T get it on the tuning pins. Many of us have been doing this for YEARS. No problems. Jon's stuff is the best I've tried. 

    Can you overdo it? Yes.  Balance is the key.  Jon can show you how he does it. Follow his advice. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-11-2019 14:24
    I use CLP alot and would highly recommend it for poor rendering or just to make the job a little easier. You can get if from Schaff. It's safe for wood and felt and virtually disappears after applied. I tried ordering Jon's stuff but with no luck. If you're able to order it please post it here or contact me privately. Thanks!

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    www.thattuningguy.com
    Tunic OnlyPure, TuneLab & PianoMeter user
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-11-2019 22:07
    You can contact him at: jonpage@pianocapecod.com

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-12-2019 08:47
    Maggie, I would be interested to see what effect the CBL might have for you, as our lever techniques seem to be similar. Having someone else try it and report, who has a similar technique to mine, may help answer a question I have about the lubes, which I have tried...all of them. With my style of tuning, which uses no impacts whatsoever, for ergonomic reasons, I find the lubes ineffective, and thus don't use them any more. 

    This is not to say that they don't work, but I think that the lube's effect my require some sort of impact to overcome that grinding, corrosion induced static and dynamic friction. I even suspect that with corrosion at friction points, there may not be dynamic sliding friction at all, but rather, static and dynamic friction may be pretty darn close to each other...ie, the string doesn't break through and then glide, it has to be physically moved, either by impact or lever flex.  I think the impact technique may work better with the lubes, because the impact delivers a force for an instant, which is much higher than the hand easing technique does. That's why, with the hand easing technique I use, I physically move the string with the lever.

    I do question one aspect of the lubes' proximity to hammer felt. This is speculative, so please take it as such...it may be foo-foo. I have observed an oddly even pattern of, what I thought was mold, in a number of lubed grands, including grands I've  lubed. The pattern was there, in both non-ideal ambient conditions and fully ac controlled houses, so fingering it as mold was not entirely a slam, dunk for me. There was a spray like pattern of amber dots all over the hammers, and top surface of the shanks. When I saw it the first time, I just said "mold", but when I saw it a number of times, because the pattern looked odd and much too regular relative to what I expect to see with mold, my antennae went up. When I realized I had lubed these pianos, I began observing things more closely.  While not coming to any conclusions,  I do wonder whether this is actually mold or lube induced mold or simply discoloration, given the oddly regular spray-like pattern. I am curious if others have noticed this particular pattern of whatever it is, mold or lube spotting, or lube spotting included mold.

    On one, it was in the shop for work, and we bleached the shanks, unsuccessfully trying to remove the spotting, which in this case was also on the top surface of the rep lever. We gave up and parts were replaced.


    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-12-2019 09:32
    I do a smooth pull method in grands. I have observed that CBL has a very noticeable effect in reducing friction. The biggest difference so far was in the Steinway L from the video. It was rewhatevered in the past, and a decent job actually. The front duplex string rests created a bunch of friction that I was unaware of prior to using the lube. Before, I could always get the job done. But after, it was so much easier.

    I tune this piano 5+ times a year, so am quite familiar with how it tunes.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2019 13:10
    WOW - This is a lot of information!  Thank you to everyone!!!

    Jim - Yes, I think we do tune in a similar way. I'll let you know how it goes. I tune way more uprights than grands and am once again afraid to use any type of lube, so be patient for a good report. ;-)  I'll wait until I get a really bad piano and/or one that doesn't matter (I WILL be getting BOTH of those), but I'll still be careful to not overdo it.

    Regarding an amber "spray like pattern" on hammers, etc., yes, I've seen this but am not sure it's quite the same thing you describe. I'm SO familiar with many types of mold that I never ID'd it as such. I always assumed it was something spilled or, please forgive me if this is stupid, varmint pee. We get all kinds of things in pianos here including mice, chipmunks, squirrels, rats, snakes, and some spiders that will actually leave what I call "poo-dots". I've always assumed it was something from them, but since you've seen it too, perhaps not. I have access to old, crappy pianos I can experiment on. I should use a little excess lube on them & see what happens. LOL! 

    Off-topic-aside: One time I was called to a country church because of "sticky keys". They thought tuning their piano (after 15-20 years) would fix it. There were so many mice that had pooed on top of the keys, then peed on top of the poo, that there was a poo-paste thick enough I couldn't see the balance rail pins nor the key bushings. That was not fun.

    Second off topic aside:  I can ask Clint, but if anyone feels like sending me a private message explaining the new "reply" system, that would be awesome. Is there any way to reply to the whole conversation without replying to a specific post? It's probably something right in front of me. LOL!

    Thanks!!!


    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-12-2019 15:39
    Maggie and Jim,
         I too tuned for 25 yrs. left handed, pivoting my wrist turning the tuning pin. I also placed my left thumb horizontal to the hammer handle using it as a type of fulcrum but changed to right handed several years ago due to arthritis in my fingers. BUT today I put Jon Page's CBL on the stringing felt, agraffes and or pressure bar of a most difficult non rendering Yamaha C7 that I ever tune on a regular basis. I again experimented with tuning both left handed your way and right handed. It doesn't matter the tuning technique. With that CBL slick stuff, when you move the pin ever so slightly that string is moving in direct proportion to the twisting of the pin.This was an experiment I performed for you and others who are undecided on this product.
         Order it directly from Jon Page and put a smile on your face!

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 26.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2019 15:51
    Thanks, Thomas!

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2019 09:41
    Not that I helps now but I want to share the benefits of ambidextrous tuning.    I tune all upright left handed and all Grands right handed.   I have tune 30-40 pianos a week for nearly 20 years and do not have back, arm or should issues.   It was instilled in me by my teacher and I can clearly see the benefit as I see younger and newer techs who have been working much less than I have with all sort of complaints about shoulder and back issues.   

    The ergonomics of tuning upright left handed only make sense to me.  For those looking to start to spread their work between left and right hand. Try  a few notes or rough pitch corrects with your left hand.  

    Also have you looked into the Levitan tuning level shaped like a C that may offer even more relief for you.  Just keep in mind it's very different.  

    I am sorry you are going through all this and I hope you recover well and are back  to 100% in a timely manner.

    ------------------------------
    Gregory Cheng
    West Chester PA
    267-994-5742
    Gregorycheng.net
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2019 10:57
    Maggie, I feel your pain from your descriptions. Wow. 

    I think this thread is an important one because we don't hear enough about what tuning pianos can do to our bodies. We all have to deal with pain in our work. I have to say I have had very few times when pain intruded. Maybe I was just lucky. I have tried to pay attention to what my body is telling me. I've tried to keep active and fit. I did go through a time when I was actually making myself dizzy. It was alarming. I finally realized I was holding my breath while I tuned. Not good for your health!

    In regard to ambidextrous tuning, I have to say I tried it and gave up. I didn't really work all that hard at it, I have to add. It was very frustrating. Here's my rationalization, for what it's worth. Whenever I tune a good grand I need to bring all my skills to bear on that task. Much of my tuning was on vertical pianos. When I realized I was using my left hand more, I wondered if my right hand was up to the task of tuning a grand. Finding a way to tune a grand with my left hand seemed really awkward, and ended up putting the hammer in a less desirable position on the tuning pin.

    So, even though tuning every piano with the right hand often puts me in an awkward positions with  stresses that may be bad for my overall health, I felt I needed to position myself for being able to bring all my bodily skills for grands. To alleviate some of the awkward positions with verticals,  I consciously change positions as I tune; stand up, sit at different angles, etc. I try not to get locked into one place. It's sort of like locking your knees in a choir. Standing that way may make you pass out.

    I also got some insight into what an ETD-only tuner might feel about learning to tune a temperament aurally. It  must be about as frustrating as learning to tune left handed.  I don't know if the experience is totally the same, but I did think about it and gained some sympathy for learning a skill that you may not feel is needed.

    Richard West








  • 29.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2019 13:30
    Richard I would encourage you to try again.  The benefits of obtaining this skill however long it takes is worth the trouble.   

    Rule number one with my students today is if they are going learn with me they have to do it this way.   Building this habit early on is the key to a life time career.  Learning it much later is a hindrance but it is never too late to learn.  





  • 30.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-13-2019 14:39
    not to mention it might cut 5 years off of one's potential alzheimers...work those brain cells!

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2019 15:02
    Richard -

    "I finally realized I was holding my breath while I tuned. Not good for your health!" 
    HAHAHAHA!!!

    "Finding a way to tune a grand with my left hand seemed really awkward, and ended up putting the hammer in a less desirable position on the tuning pin."
    YES! My Levitan hammer just arrived today. :-) 

    "I consciously change positions as I tune; stand up, sit at different angles, etc. I try not to get locked into one place."
    YES, again!  This makes a huge difference for me. I think my biggest problem is I came to this profession with injuries already in place. ;-)

    "I also got some insight into what an ETD-only tuner might feel about learning to tune a temperament aurally...."
    I never thought of that. Hmmm...  ;-)

    EVERYONE -

    Thank you again. I have a feeling that in the long run I'll keep tuning uprights left handed. Grands, I don't know yet, but I will be trying out my new Levitan hammer soon. :-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-14-2019 19:27
    Today, I had an opportunity, if you would call this an opportunity, to tune one of the worst rendering pianos I tune, and a chance to play with the lefty lever technique I mentioned above somewhere. I have many poorly rendering pianos. Some are just a pain, but some are really tough. This one, a 40 year old small Kawai grand is a bear...my worst one except for a 90's B.  

    So I tried working lefty in the 9:30-11:30 side, easing with the hand, technique as I showed in the video. Pushing the lever to bring the string up, either letting the lever naturally flex the pin towards the string, so it charged the front segment when the lever released, or sometimes choosing to press down on the lever while turning, to add more charge. Easing down, pressing down on the lever handle, again for a little charge after removing the lever. It worked pretty well, actually sometimes better than righty 12:30-2:30.  Its doable, and I may use it more often for fine tuning. Down side is, the thumb is pushing the lever to turn it, compressing the thumb joint...not sure I like this compression as a regular movement. But it works. 

    Often after the rotation, I needed to actively flex the pin with the lever, without turning it, to move the string over the friction point, and place the pitch at target. Sometimes the flexing pressure was significant, and needed to be accompanied with strikes of the key.  Most of the piano, I had to guesstimate small turning movements, and then physically move the string with the lever to target. It gets real old, but its the only way out. 

    In the capos, which are really bad, there was still no way out of adding some shock to the system somehow. Even when flexing the pins, they still wouldn't move. They don't bounce pitch wise, flat to sharp...they don't move period. I mention this, because its much more physically demanding than tuning even normally recalcitrant pianos. It may be the physical frustration Maggie described is unavoidable on these high friction beasts.  It may also be that the physical wear and tear these horrible beasts present is not worth the wear and tear on a challenged body, let alone an unchallenged body. The combination of client recalcitrance to fix the problem (these folks have bucks), difficulty of the tuning on the body, and general un-fun-ness, makes it so I never call these clients to remind them about tuning. 

    So the tuning lefty works, but the nature of the super high friction piano is such that the wear and tear on one's self is only avoidable by avoiding the tuning, I'd say.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2019 19:58
    Jim - This is some great info! Thanks so much for taking the time to experiment. Not surprisingly, I know EXACTLY what you mean about the thumb.

    I have to tune 2 D's this evening. One down, one to go. My Levitan-C lever came in yesterday, so it'll be fun to say its first use was on a Steinway D. ;-)  The first needed a pitch change so that was a nice breaking in (of me) to the weirdness of it. My left hand felt a little uncoordinated so I tried my right. I could tune right handed without my shoulder popping out!!! It did start to feel strained & sore, so I switched back & the left hand was easier once it had some right hand advice. ;-)  Unfortunately, it took me slightly over 2 hours to tune it. I think I'll eventually get used to it. Here's hoping this next one goes a little faster. At least it works! :-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2019 20:15
    It may take a while to really get used to the C-Lever, but it is a great tool (and especially great for pitch raises)!

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine
    Billerica MA
    978-663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: calling all lefties

    Posted 08-14-2019 21:00
    Why did you particularly like it for pitch raises? I found it slower and clumsy for pitch raises. However, I was used to moving very fast with a traditional lever. Just can't move as fast with the Levitan C (at least I couldn't anyway).

    I thought it was OK once I got used to it. It is markedly slower than a traditional lever (for me). The big advantage seems to be in the leverage from the extra length. The leverage allows for very small and very precise pin movements.

    I could tune left-handed with it better than right-handed. 

    What I learned is that I prefer a traditional lever, but that extra leverage is great. I bought a 17" Fujan and the length/leverage is about perfect. Being so long, it hits the lid prop if it's open. But every lever seems to have some workaround.

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2019 21:47
    Reporting back:

    Second grand took 1.5 hours. YAY!

    The only problems I encountered were user error. That slow burn started to kick in with my neck when I realized I was looking down because...new lever...ooooohhh, shiny! Closed my eyes as much as possible & problem solved. LOL!  I then realized my hand was getting sore because I was gripping the handle way tighter than needed. The last problem had nothing to do with the lever. I moved wrong when putting the music desk back & pop, out goes the shoulder. Ouch. LOL!

    The only time it was extra awkward was at the top end. The pins are further away so the handle was closer to the fallboard. Sometimes the only good placement for the lever put my hands in the same spot, making it harder to hit the key. I switched hands ok at those times.

    I'm so pleased!!! :-)

    CBL ordered. :-)

    Thank you all!!!


    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2019 22:10
    Since the bass pins are closer, I sometimes for a break in routine stand. Still with my hand on the correct place but use my leg to move it.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2019 11:22
    Ha! I tried that once. ;-)

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2019 12:22
    I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2019 12:26
    Have you heard the one about the guy who had to have his left side amputated? He's all right now!!

    Sorry

    Richard








  • 41.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2019 12:31
    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    Larry & Richard - 😂😜

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: calling all lefties

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2019 08:58
    Hi All,

    I wanted to put out a huge THANK YOU to everyone who offered help. The Levitan C-lever has been a game changer for me. I bought some CBL but am waiting on a particular piano to try it on first. I'm going to be extra cautious.

    For those who are interested, my deltoid (particularly middle) has been visibly shrinking, but I don't feel a significant loss of strength. *shrug*  Orthopedists are like piano tuners around here; they have a 1-3 month wait. I injured myself the beginning of June, saw my regular doc in July (another wait), and will see the orthopedist at the end of this month (September).

    I wouldn't be able to work at all if I couldn't tune left handed, so thank you to all who helped that work better for me. <3

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------