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Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

  • 1.  Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-09-2021 14:11
    There are many different Equal Temperaments, and there are many different Unequal Temperaments.

    In your experience, which Equal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    In your experience, which Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    What are the reasons your customers have given for their choices?

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    Roshan Kakiya
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  • 2.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-09-2021 16:59
    Roshan, 

    For me, no one would request anything other than "tuning" unless I expose them to a bit of the theory behind both.  Then if they're willing I expose them to EBVT or a variant (sounds like a virus 😉).  When usually they like it, then it goes in my records (3x5 cards) that EBVT is what they want. In my present clientele I have gone no further than that. 

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-09-2021 22:00
    My go-to temperament is the Koval Mild Victorian. I have many piano teachers who prefer the Koval Victorian.
    These offsets are on Jason Kanter's site under Modern Well.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-10-2021 04:16
    In 40  years of tuning, I had maybe one person ask me about temperament (s) other than equal, but they didn't have me tune the piano with it.  
    --David Nereson, RPT

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    David Nereson
    Registered Piano Technician
    Denver CO
    303-355-5770
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-10-2021 06:40
    The relevant thing is that pianists have forgotten that music is made of vibrations and that they have to be tuned and that tuning should be on their agenda.

    Guitarists are always tuning. They're listening. Why not pianists?

    It's potentially tuners who can raise awareness.

    I have a friend for whom I tune and who plays jazz and fun Gilbert & Sullivan and a very wide range to whom I introduced Kirnberger III for his Steinway C. "Are you sure you like your curry that strong?" "Yes" he says.

    Meanwhile people commenting on less strong
    love it. 

    As a tuner, it's taken me best part of 15 years to develop the way of getting good, reliable and repeatable results for a "strong" tuning of this nature suitable for all repertoire, and that's the secret. It's possible, however, and worth exploring.

    I'm happy to release my "High Definition" technique to others on conditions.

    Best wishes

    David P
    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



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  • 6.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-10-2021 07:16
    Conditions (?):
    -
    - 
    -
    (more?)

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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    917-589-2625
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-11-2021 03:25
    Customers have to be pretty sophisticated to start asking for a particular temperament. No one has asked. However, my favorite unequal temperament is the Bremmer EBVT-3 temperament. It is makes the piano very warm.

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    Michael Evans
    Mansfield TX
    817-822-3591
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-11-2021 13:37
    Roshan,
    I only wish that I would have customers ask about historic temperaments.  I have never been successful in generating such interest.
    BTW, by definition of "equal temperament" there is only one equal temperament.  It is mathematically defined.  Regards.  Norman

    ------------------------------
    Norman Brickman
    Potomac Piano Service
    Potomac, Maryland
    potomacpiano@verizon.net
    https://potomacpiano.com
    (301) 983.9321
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-11-2021 15:06
    Norman,

    Mathematically, an Equal Temperament can be defined as a musical temperament based on the division of an interval into semitones of equal size.

    In Pure Octave Equal Temperament, the size of the Pure Octave is 1200 × log2(2) = 1200.00 cents. The Pure Octave is divided into 12 equal semitones, which means that the size of each semitone is 1200.00 cents / 12 = 100.00 cents.

    In Pure Twelth Equal Temperament, the size of the Pure Twelfth is 1200 × log2(3) = 1901.96 cents. The Pure Twelfth is divided into 19 equal semitones, which means that the size of each semitone is 1901.96 cents / 19 = 100.10 cents.

    In Pure Fifth Equal Temperament, the size of the Pure Fifth is 1200 × log2(3 / 2) = 701.96 cents. The Pure Fifth is divided into 7 equal semitones, which means that the size of each semitone is 701.96 cents / 7 = 100.28 cents.

    All three of these Equal Temperaments are different. Therefore, there is not one Equal Temperament. There are numerous different Equal Temperaments, all of which are part of the Equal Temperament tuning system.

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    Roshan Kakiya
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-11-2021 16:54
    Roshan,

    Thanks for the education.  I was thinking too narrow, too in-the-box.  Traditional Western 12-Tone Equal Temperament / Equal Divided Octave if I have it right (or please correct me).  I can get as far as "visualizing" 24-EDO music -- you could just have two pianos with the "proper" tuning for each. 

    But how about 19-EDO as a working example?  That sounds very appealing.  Can you help me visualize if 19-EDO is practical for tuning/playing on a piano with the 88 keys we have today?  It sounds appealing, not from its fifth (which is not so good), but it has a major sixth that is close to pure, a pretty close minor third, a decent perfect fourth, etc.  If we are dealing with a musical instrument with normally 12 physical keys to the octave, I would appreciate understanding how one gets to a 19-EDO.  To help me start to put it all together.  

    And if in a similar vein you could help me understand the physical reality of 7-TET, maybe then I could appreciate or understand better how violinists or violists (tuned with their usual fifths) play concertos in accompaniment with a 12-TET piano!  Thanks in advance.

          Norman

    ------------------------------
    Norman Brickman
    Potomac Piano Service
    Potomac, Maryland
    potomacpiano@verizon.net
    https://potomacpiano.com
    (301) 983.9321
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-11-2021 23:59
    Norman,

    Standard 12-EDO Keyboard Layout

    All three of the Equal Temperaments that I have mentioned (Pure Fifth ET, Pure Octave ET and Pure Twelfth ET) adhere to the standard 12-EDO keyboard layout, which contains 7 semitones per Fifth, 12 semitones per Octave and 19 semitones per Twelfth.


    Redefining the Standard 12-EDO Keyboard Layout for 24-EDO

    The Double Octave on the standard 12-EDO keyboard layout contains 24 semitones. So, the Double Octave on the standard 12-EDO keyboard layout can be redefined as the Octave on the 24-EDO keyboard layout.

    12-EDO Double Octave = 24-EDO Octave = 1200 × log2(2) = 1200.00 cents.

    24-EDO Semitone = 1200.00 cents / 24 = 50.00 cents.


    Redefining the Standard 12-EDO Keyboard Layout for 19-EDO

    The Twelfth on the standard 12-EDO keyboard layout contains 19 semitones. So, the Twelfth on the standard 12-EDO keyboard layout can be redefined as the Octave on the 19-EDO keyboard layout.

    12-EDO Twelfth = 19-EDO Octave = 1200 × log2(2) = 1200.00 cents.

    19-EDO Semitone = 1200.00 cents / 19 = 63.16 cents.

    ------------------------------
    Roshan Kakiya
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 08:57
    Hello Roshan,

    Your post caught my attention. You mention three types of Equal Temperament, 'Pure Octave Equal Temperament,' 'Pure Twelfth Equal Temperament,' and 'Pure Fifth Equal Temperament.' Your post doesn't talk about how inharmonicity plays into this discussion, but that's okay. It's not necessary for the points you're making.
    As an aural tuner, I use a tempered version of all three of these 'Equal Temperaments' in every piano I tune.
    I use a version of the Pure Fifth Equal Temperament when establishing the temperament octave and moving down toward the bass. Why? In part, to accommodate the behavior of the thick bass strings and the numerous audible upper partials. The bass has a higher inharmonicity than the center of the scale. As I move from the temperament octave up toward the high treble, I move from a tempered version of the Pure Fifth approach to a tempered version of the Pure Twelfth approach. I want to end up with the Pure Octave approach at the top of the piano as it has most of its upper partials beyond the limits of our hearing. In other words, I want the space between semitones to grow as you move down the scale and decrease as you move up the scale.
    I believe this approach results in the best consonance. It is my opinion that a well-tempered ear is a better judge of compromise than a machine-generated tuning curve. Having said that, I'm not making an argument against the use of ETDs. They are an excellent tool in the hands of an aural tuner!

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    Rick Butler
    Bowie MD
    240 396 7480
    RickRickRickRickRick
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Posted 06-13-2021 15:24
    Rick,

    Your comments are incredibly insightful. I am asking myself the following question now: Why is one Equal Temperament used across the piano's keyboard in theory when numerous Equal Temperaments are used across the piano's keyboard in practice? For example, in theory, when Pure Octave Equal Temperament is used, it is used across the entirety of the piano's keyboard. In practice, based on your comments, you are using a range of different Equal Temperaments across the piano's keyboard, starting with Pure Fifth Equal Temperament in the bass and ending with Pure Octave Equal Temperament in the treble. In my view, the lack of consideration for inharmonicity in the theoretical mathematics of tuning is the most significant reason for the discrepancies that exist between tuning theory and tuning practice.

    When I work on the mathematics of tuning, I always set Pure Fifth Equal Temperament as the widest Equal Temperament and Pure Octave Equal Temperament as the narrowest Equal Temperament. The reason for doing this is that both of them represent two extremities. Pure Fifth Equal Temperament is created by distributing the entirety of the Pythagorean Comma across a Stack of 7 Octaves by widening each of the 7 Octaves equally. Pure Octave Equal Temperament is created by distributing the entirety of the Pythagorean Comma across a Stack of 12 Fifths by narrowing each of the 12 Fifths equally. Pure Twelfth Equal Temperament is situated between these two extremities because it distributes a fraction of the Pythagorean Comma across a Stack of 7 Octaves and a fraction of the Pythagorean Comma across a Stack of 12 Fifths.


    "I use a version of the Pure Fifth Equal Temperament when establishing the temperament octave and moving down toward the bass."

    "As I move from the temperament octave up toward the high treble, I move from a tempered version of the Pure Fifth approach to a tempered version of the Pure Twelfth approach."

    "I want to end up with the Pure Octave approach at the top of the piano".

    "In other words, I want the space between semitones to grow as you move down the scale and decrease as you move up the scale."

    By tuning Pure Fifth Equal Temperament in the bass, Pure Twelfth Equal Temperament in the midrange and Pure Octave Equal Temperament in the treble, you will be tuning the widest Equal Temperament in the bass and the narrowest Equal Temperament in the treble. Therefore, the semitones will be the widest in the bass, will become narrower as you go up the scale in the midrange towards the treble and will be the narrowest in the treble.

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    Roshan Kakiya
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Which Equal Temperaments and Unequal Temperaments are requested the most by your customers?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-13-2021 19:43
    "how inharmonicity plays into this discussion, "

          Hey Rick. You have contacted me privately with questions/info before and I quite respect your opinion. I virtually never work on 7-9 foot grands so there is A LOT I don't know.

          I've mentioned contiguous M6ths and M10ths (ratios5/3, 5/2) before.  How do these relationships sound/present across the board in real life? Do they, don't they inform stretch? What is the effect of inharmonicity on these ratios?

          There seems to be little/no tuning info on larger contiguous intervals. Why? Don't they matter?  It is one of the first things I notice as a player. Why is most all the note spacing chit/chat focused on a single central octave given inharmonicity overall?  Who plays only the temperament octave.....  




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