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Too far gone?

  • 1.  Too far gone?

    Posted 09-18-2021 18:24
    Are these hammers too far gone for filing?  Customer can't afford a new set of hammers. Nice little Everett Studio.


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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
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  • 2.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-18-2021 18:37
    These hammers will be much improved. It would be helpful to see a picture of the tops from above. The important thing is not how deep the grooves are but how long they are, in other words the length and extent of flat surface that they are presenting to the string.

    I probably don't need to say it here but to some who've attacked instruments in the past that I've seen . . . it's not a case of getting rid of the grooves, it's a case of restoring the shape which the felt presents to the string.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 3.  RE: Too far gone?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2021 00:14

    I agree. Work to restore the oval shape of the hammer by filing off more from the ends of the string grooves. Take less off the middle, leaving grooves but removing some of the extra in between the grooves.

    One good sign: the grooves are very tight and even, indicating that the center pinning is still excellent. Be sure that your filing does not stress the center pinning.







  • 4.  RE: Too far gone?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2021 22:24
    I followed this advice just today. Thx!

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 5.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-18-2021 18:37
    Hi Timothy.
    If they have not been reshaped before, then it looks like they certainly can be reshaped.
    Just make sure that there is enough felt left in the high treble hammers.
    Of course , after reshaping the blow distance needs to be adjusted and all the other good stuff.
    I run into this issue a lot myself where the customer does not want to have new hammers installed. Reshaping is a good option. Just make sure to tell the customer that new hammers are the better option.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 6.  RE: Too far gone?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2021 00:38
    If the top treble two or three hammers are not down to the wood and offer enough felt to actually allow reshaping then go for it. The customer needs to understand that regulation is also going to be required because of the resulting changes in action geometry. Stress that in the end, the piano will not only sound and perform better, it will also be a lot more enjoyable to play. 

    Like David Said, the length of the groove is probably more important than how deep it is. Although the deeper it is the longer it will be. A properly shaped hammer strikes the string at a very specific spot and allows the string to produce mostly the desired partials. If the hammer is worn and is striking the hammer over a much longer surface it winds up slapping at the string and generating much unwanted partials. Properly shaped hammer, good tone. Worn hammer, not good tone.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 7.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 09:41
    There does not look like there is enough felt left, considering where the underfelt is in the photos. The tone will be brighter due to exposing the denser felt. I'd just lightly shoe-shine/knock-the-corners off the string cuts and be done with it and tell her to save up for new hammers.

    Better yet, a brass bristle brush will tone it down and ease the corners, with even less work.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 8.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 09:50
    " The tone will be brighter due to exposing the denser felt.  "

    Yes - I would normally steam the hammers with this operation. 

    I use a wet tea towel and a domestic iron, heating the  teatowels on each side at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock of top dead centre, and doing a couple of octaves at a time, get an even result.

    https://youtu.be/prWp46UGerQ?t=117 is an example where someone has sanded the grooves out, flat, doing nothing effective and here restoring shape. Commentators have suggested that I could be more adventurous down the bass.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 9.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 10:59
    Aaaahhh… the wire brush. that's always  been my very favorite in home  "voicing" procedure esp.  for uprights…-all right release the hounds for those who will say " yes but it's only temporary!"
    www,snowpianos.com



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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
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  • 10.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 11:46
    Yes, the wire brush.
    Extremely effective tool to mellow old, hardened felt. It can provide a rather quick solution for extremely bright sounding pianos, even though it's a more temporary solution. 
    Before doing any voicing, just make sure to talk with the customer to learn if they think the sound is too bright or maybe they just like it that bright.
    I remember in my first year of being in the field, I came across a screamingly bright sounding piano. The hammers had very deep string grooves, hardened and dry felts.  I wipped out my wire brush and gave it a quick pass. It took the edge off the brightness. The customer was not happy with what I thought was an improved sound. I learnt a valuable lesson that day.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 11.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 12:26
    Regarding this "wire brush" approach (which I've never used):  I'm assuming that the proper technique resembles filing; i.e. brushing parallel with the string grooves, from the shoulder of the hammer towards the strike point.   How much "fluffing" of the felt within the string groove is desirable?  And --- does brushing have any effect on the length of the grooves?   And lastly --- just how "temporary" is this approach?    I may want to experiment with this before filing.

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    Timothy Edwards
    Beckley WV
    740-517-7636
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  • 12.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 13:42
    Timothy, just one caution before your first attempt , don't brush up and down as there's a chance that if you're too vigorous you'll snap the hammer head, so just brush on an upstroke , I prefer the one inch wide wire brush , just try it and you'll soon figure out how best to utilize, it's also a  very effective  method on  higher treble overly bright/strident Asian grands , here while supporting that section of hammers  you can go back and forth with the wire brush.
    www.snowpianos.com

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    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
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  • 13.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 13:47
    " I wipped out my wire brush and gave it a quick pass. It took the edge off the brightness. The customer was not happy with what I thought was an improved sound. I learnt a valuable lesson that day."
    Yes I tune a Steinway on which Princess Diana learned piano and now in the hands of a celebrity musician in his mid 70s. Whilst the felts are hard and could do with softening, He likes the bright sound saying that then he can play without having to insert his hearing aids . . . 

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 14.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-19-2021 15:37
    Thank you David.
    I have fully recovered since.
    Peter

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    Petrus Janssen
    Peachtree City GA
    678-416-8055
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  • 15.  RE: Too far gone?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2021 12:24

    Life is only temporary.






  • 16.  RE: Too far gone?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-21-2021 08:06
    I too had an instance where I found out AFTER the fact that the owner was nearly deaf in one ear and somewhat deprived in the other. Oops!  We eventually all got past it. 

    However, the vast majority seem to like this velvety sound even if it does not last a long time. And I use it precisely this way as a demonstration of what COULD be performed on the piano, but would be more long lasting (provided they like it) with more extensive voicing. If they don't like it (or don't care) I will tell them not to worry as that old brassy sound will be back after a few hours of playing. 

    Pwg


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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 17.  RE: Too far gone?

    Posted 09-21-2021 09:26
    I have seen other hammers that lose too much weight but in perfect shape after reshaping.
    Then the regulation risks to be a little over maximum o keyboard too light. 
    Then re-weighting it, but it is not always the right procedure, and costs rise for customer.
    In an old piano I've seen, there were hammer felts so "lowered" that hammers do not strike the string in the exact position (perpendicular). Sound quality, in the upper zone, was decreased significantly.
    In the end, hammers were replaced.

    Thank you