Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

10. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Bernhard Stopper

Posted 02-22-2019 15:56

Hi Jason,

good point you bring with CPE Bachs note that his father J.S. Bach tempered "most" of the fifths. It is important to know that in old german language "all" was not a used word at this time, the word "most" was generally used for "all".

Best regards

Bernhard Stopper

------------------------------
Bernhard Stopper
Klavierbaumeister
Tuebingen
------------------------------

Original Message

11. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

Fred Sturm

Posted 02-22-2019 17:00

Thank you, Bernard. This is one of many little references that are misunderstood and blown out of all proportion to make unfounded claims. Another term is "rein" or pure. This was used almost entirely, when applied to temperament tuning, to refer to intervals tuned according to equal temperament, not to just intervals.

Neither CPE Bach nor his father were interested in pursuing the arguments about temperament that were happening during their time, but they were certainly interested in composing in a style that moved freely between keys without and restraint. It is noteworthy that JS Bach's ORGAN works use notes from E double flat to C double sharp. Try playing that on the normal 1/6 mean tone organ of the time. He was insistent on playing and composing without being constrained by tuning.

Obviously for both of them the important thing was circularity. The notion that various specific small inequalities in some particular, very carefully tuned temperament had importance to their compositional and improvisatory activities is an invention of the late 20th century. There is no evidence that they did so (and no, Barnes did not actually prove anything in his amateurish adding up of intervals in the first book of the WTC).

JS Bach famously tuned his harpsichord each day, taking 15 minutes. I'm sure he was particular. I am also sure that this did not imply some intricate pattern. By far the most likely is something along the lines of Werckmeister's tuning sequence published as part of an organ book in 1698 - a book JS Bach is known to have owned. A very simple sequence, in which one goes about one's business pragmatically, with most fifths being definitely narrowed a bit, and maybe one or two fifths might be slightly wide as the circle is closed. Or maybe not. Could any of us distinguish the results from ET, listening to music being played? I doubt it very much.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message

12. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Jason Leininger

Posted 02-22-2019 18:22

Interesting point Bernard. So "most" always meant "all", or just some of the time? Also, this one point is just a small part of Reinhards argument in his somewhat lengthy book. The Bach family was aware of Neidhardts equal temperament and could have easily described it, also Bach owned a copy of Werkmeisters book where he went out of his way to make lengthy arguments about the superiority of good temperaments not equal temperament. There really is no way of knowing for sure what Bach used exactly, but we can be sure what Werkmeister was using most of the time. I have read elsewhere that it was common for singers in the Baroque era and before to be able to sing enharmonic intervals and distinguish between say Ab and G#. This same sense for small intervals is found in other cultures as well. Not to mention the connection in Europe to the old modal system that was derived from the ancient Greek modal scales with the enharmonic species. It would have been natural for them to want to distinguish between the keys after leaving the old modal system. I don't think that it is far fetched at all to think that musicians of the time had a keen ear for these pitch differences and were also capable of distinguishing between the modes and where the different sizes of intervals were.

Tuning a harpsichord in 15 minutes says nothing about temperamnent. His daily tuning could have consisted mainly of cleaning up octaves or clearing/tempering certain fifths, which was much easier to do than on a modern piano because of a less strings, less torque, less keys, and very little inharmoincity. Werkmeisters temperamnets are not that intricate, some fifths clear and some flattened by a certain comma amount. Also none of this addresses the fact that there are a greater variety of musical intervals in good temperaments. The difference should be obvious as we are constantly listening to the gradual increase in beating of our thirds as we lay the bearings for our equal temperament, which is how many of us decide whether our temperament is correct. If one is even slightly too fast or too slow we can tell. This would have been even easier to hear on their low tension, zero carbon wire, with very little inharmonicity. To make harmony, music must explore discord and the greater the variety of discord, as long as it is bearable, the more sweet the resolutions become when we hear them.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

Original Message

13. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

Fred Sturm

Posted 02-22-2019 23:27

Jason,

Can you be more specific about the book of Werckmeister you say Bach had "where he went out of his way to make lengthy arguments about the superiority of good temperaments not equal temperament?" Which book? Also, can you elucidate about us being sure what Werckmeister was using most of the time? From what I have read, he expressed different opinions at various times, some quite a bit at odds with others. I assumed a lot of it had to do with those he was exchanging opinions with.

One opinion that sticks out for me is his characterization of a 1/4 comma fifth as the howling of a dog or the like (which has particular relevance to his published monochord temperaments). Another is where he said offhand that you could just as easily just make all the fifths equal, and that the reason for not doing so was simply to make the most commonly used keys sound better. He gave no other reason that I am aware of, said nothing about adding harmonic color, for instance.

As you say, tuning a harpsichord in 15 minutes does say nothing about temperament. In fact, it seems plain, from my years of practical experience as a tuner, that one would simply touch up unisons and octaves as needed, and the tuning would drift over time until it was bad enough that you would go through the whole thing again, taking somewhat longer. Which says something about how finicky you are, especially with a wooden instrument that responds to temperature changes quite rapidly, and where there were no automatic thermostats. It implies a fairly wide range of acceptability.

I don't find it easier to hear or to make tiny changes to fifths, trying to come up with some particular comma, on a harpsichord compared to a piano. Less torque, negligible inharmonicity, and a smaller diameter pin, yes, but for my part I find it just as difficult to nail a clean unison and octave. I also find it extraordinarily tedious to figure out how to make even a small change to a temperament aurally, since each interval change affects so many other notes and intervals.

I think of Bach and others as real flesh and blood people, who got up in the morning and put on socks and shoes and went about their business, just like me. When you are busy writing as much music as Bach did, administering choirs and instrumentalists, dealing with higher authorities, teaching lots of students, traveling to get to know new music, having close relationships with a very large family (both immediate and extended), evaluating organs, etc., etc., how much attention would particular quirky details of tuning take up in your attention and list of priorities?

I think you would find a simple method to make everything acceptable, and learn to get it done efficiently. And I think that CPE Bach's very brief and not very meticulous way of describing his own tuning probably takes after his father's attitude, as the whole book was largely dedicated to disseminating his father's methods.

But, of course, I do realize that there are hundreds if not thousands who believe differently. Indeed, there is a whole industry built up over many decades around figuring out "how Bach must have tuned."

Regards,

Fred Sturm

fssturm@unm.edu

www.artoftuning.com

http://fredsturm.net

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein

Original Message

Original Message------

Interesting point Bernard. So "most" always meant "all", or just some of the time? Also, this one point is just a small part of Reinhards argument in his somewhat lengthy book. The Bach family was aware of Neidhardts equal temperament and could have easily described it, also Bach owned a copy of Werkmeisters book where he went out of his way to make lengthy arguments about the superiority of good temperaments not equal temperament. There really is no way of knowing for sure what Bach used exactly, but we can be sure what Werkmeister was using most of the time. I have read elsewhere that it was common for singers in the Baroque era and before to be able to sing enharmonic intervals and distinguish between say Ab and G#. This same sense for small intervals is found in other cultures as well. Not to mention the connection in Europe to the old modal system that was derived from the ancient Greek modal scales with the enharmonic species. It would have been natural for them to want to distinguish between the keys after leaving the old modal system. I don't think that it is far fetched at all to think that musicians of the time had a keen ear for these pitch differences and were also capable of distinguishing between the modes and where the different sizes of intervals were.

Tuning a harpsichord in 15 minutes says nothing about temperamnent. His daily tuning could have consisted mainly of cleaning up octaves or clearing/tempering certain fifths, which was much easier to do than on a modern piano because of a less strings, less torque, less keys, and very little inharmoincity. Werkmeisters temperamnets are not that intricate, some fifths clear and some flattened by a certain comma amount. Also none of this addresses the fact that there are a greater variety of musical intervals in good temperaments. The difference should be obvious as we are constantly listening to the gradual increase in beating of our thirds as we lay the bearings for our equal temperament, which is how many of us decide whether our temperament is correct. If one is even slightly too fast or too slow we can tell. This would have been even easier to hear on their low tension, zero carbon wire, with very little inharmonicity. To make harmony, music must explore discord and the greater the variety of discord, as long as it is bearable, the more sweet the resolutions become when we hear them.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

14. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Jason Leininger

Posted 02-23-2019 01:15

Fred,
I read many quotes from Orgel Probe and and Musicalische Temperatur (1691) and several other of his publications that I dont recall the names of now, given in Reinhards book that Mr. Pinnegar had posted. I would read the entire thing but have yet to find an English translation. Werkmeister likened a good temperament to something that is more like nature and therefore more beautiful and equal temperaments are not natural. Personally, I agree with this statement. But that is just one of many of the quotes given about his belief in the superiority of unequal temperaments. Many of them were based in his aesthics and philisohical dispositions. I don't have the time to go back through the book at the moment, but if you read it you will find the others. For this reason I assumend (maybe wrongly) that because of his vocal preference for his unequal tunings, that he likely used them unless the organs he was tuning were supposed to follow a meantone tradition. Yes he did have different opinions at times, and had said that equal temperament was acceptable for some situations. There are other quotes from contempories of Werkmiester about key color. Again Reinhards book contains many quotes from various sources, and explains this much better than I can in a simple post.

Of course the tuning would drift overtime and the entire compass would need to be tuned again. Practically speaking, a musician would not have been likely to do this daily. But maybe Bach was that fast? I would assume that he would likely clean things up get to work and do a full tuning when the need arose. Maybe weekly? Tuning a harpsichord is not as laboriuous a task as tuning a modern piano by any stretch. As the instrument drifts the temperament would be likely to become more irregular and when it was too irregular to bear the entire instrument would be retuned. It would be like the woodworker putting off sharpening his plane iron until he started getting tearout. (Although good artisans would know to sharpen more frequently). I do agree with you that Bach would have done what was simple and fast though, thats how all good artisans work. Not standing in tune as well would add more irregularity faster to instruments than we have today, so in that respect they would likely to have been used to more "key color" or "out of tuneness" simply from instruments drifting faster than they do today with Damp Chasers and iron frames. But that drift would not have been likely to be towards ET. Tuning pure in their day would have easier due the nature of the instruments design, which has now been all but forgotten, and the pure wrought iron and brass wire that is easy to hear the fundamental very clearly on. (Which has not been available for over 150 years until recently from Stephen Birkett)
Also tuning is not a quirky detail it is a very special natural phenomenon that has been studied since the days of Pythagoras, and Kepler used his knowledge of it to help him discover the three laws of planetary motion. Proportions, and proportional exploration ruled the arts and sciences for hundreds of years and were held in very high regard until into the 20th century. High arts were governed by the proper use of correct proprtions, simple whole number ratios being the most important for good harmony.

Overall I am not terribly concerned with conituning a debate on what was actually practiced, but what I think sounds best. Learning about the use of temperament over the course of musical history has helped me reach this decision, and you have been instrumental in that, and I thank you for that. What I think sounds best is variety, not constant incessant equal temperament on every piano that is recored on and played in concert. This I can say with surety was not the norm in Bachs day. Do I have some vendetta against ET? No, I use it daily to make a living, but would be very happy and eager to use other temperaments should my clients desire.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 02-22-2019 23:26
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Jason,

Can you be more specific about the book of Werckmeister you say Bach had "where he went out of his way to make lengthy arguments about the superiority of good temperaments not equal temperament?" Which book? Also, can you elucidate about us being sure what Werckmeister was using most of the time? From what I have read, he expressed different opinions at various times, some quite a bit at odds with others. I assumed a lot of it had to do with those he was exchanging opinions with.

One opinion that sticks out for me is his characterization of a 1/4 comma fifth as the howling of a dog or the like (which has particular relevance to his published monochord temperaments). Another is where he said offhand that you could just as easily just make all the fifths equal, and that the reason for not doing so was simply to make the most commonly used keys sound better. He gave no other reason that I am aware of, said nothing about adding harmonic color, for instance.

As you say, tuning a harpsichord in 15 minutes does say nothing about temperament. In fact, it seems plain, from my years of practical experience as a tuner, that one would simply touch up unisons and octaves as needed, and the tuning would drift over time until it was bad enough that you would go through the whole thing again, taking somewhat longer. Which says something about how finicky you are, especially with a wooden instrument that responds to temperature changes quite rapidly, and where there were no automatic thermostats. It implies a fairly wide range of acceptability.

I don't find it easier to hear or to make tiny changes to fifths, trying to come up with some particular comma, on a harpsichord compared to a piano. Less torque, negligible inharmonicity, and a smaller diameter pin, yes, but for my part I find it just as difficult to nail a clean unison and octave. I also find it extraordinarily tedious to figure out how to make even a small change to a temperament aurally, since each interval change affects so many other notes and intervals.

I think of Bach and others as real flesh and blood people, who got up in the morning and put on socks and shoes and went about their business, just like me. When you are busy writing as much music as Bach did, administering choirs and instrumentalists, dealing with higher authorities, teaching lots of students, traveling to get to know new music, having close relationships with a very large family (both immediate and extended), evaluating organs, etc., etc., how much attention would particular quirky details of tuning take up in your attention and list of priorities?

I think you would find a simple method to make everything acceptable, and learn to get it done efficiently. And I think that CPE Bach's very brief and not very meticulous way of describing his own tuning probably takes after his father's attitude, as the whole book was largely dedicated to disseminating his father's methods.

But, of course, I do realize that there are hundreds if not thousands who believe differently. Indeed, there is a whole industry built up over many decades around figuring out "how Bach must have tuned."

Regards,

Fred Sturm

fssturm@unm.edu

www.artoftuning.com

http://fredsturm.net

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination." - Einstein

Original Message------

Interesting point Bernard. So "most" always meant "all", or just some of the time? Also, this one point is just a small part of Reinhards argument in his somewhat lengthy book. The Bach family was aware of Neidhardts equal temperament and could have easily described it, also Bach owned a copy of Werkmeisters book where he went out of his way to make lengthy arguments about the superiority of good temperaments not equal temperament. There really is no way of knowing for sure what Bach used exactly, but we can be sure what Werkmeister was using most of the time. I have read elsewhere that it was common for singers in the Baroque era and before to be able to sing enharmonic intervals and distinguish between say Ab and G#. This same sense for small intervals is found in other cultures as well. Not to mention the connection in Europe to the old modal system that was derived from the ancient Greek modal scales with the enharmonic species. It would have been natural for them to want to distinguish between the keys after leaving the old modal system. I don't think that it is far fetched at all to think that musicians of the time had a keen ear for these pitch differences and were also capable of distinguishing between the modes and where the different sizes of intervals were.

Tuning a harpsichord in 15 minutes says nothing about temperamnent. His daily tuning could have consisted mainly of cleaning up octaves or clearing/tempering certain fifths, which was much easier to do than on a modern piano because of a less strings, less torque, less keys, and very little inharmoincity. Werkmeisters temperamnets are not that intricate, some fifths clear and some flattened by a certain comma amount. Also none of this addresses the fact that there are a greater variety of musical intervals in good temperaments. The difference should be obvious as we are constantly listening to the gradual increase in beating of our thirds as we lay the bearings for our equal temperament, which is how many of us decide whether our temperament is correct. If one is even slightly too fast or too slow we can tell. This would have been even easier to hear on their low tension, zero carbon wire, with very little inharmonicity. To make harmony, music must explore discord and the greater the variety of discord, as long as it is bearable, the more sweet the resolutions become when we hear them.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

15. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

David Pinnegar

Posted 02-23-2019 10:37

Dear Jason

I'm with you on all of your approach. It really is about what sounds really good (even best) but to those who have only experienced good equal temperament better than that can be hardly imagined.

Do I have some vendetta against ET? No, I use it daily to make a living, but would be very happy and eager to use other temperaments should my clients desire.

The point is that many musicians haven't even come across the subject so don't know that they might desire it.

One area to start with is where one knows that the only player in the house is a beginner. Then they will be bowled over by the sound and never look back. And the sound is so pure, as I hope my YouTube recordings have demonstrated, particularly the C major Bach and some of the Debussy and Ravel, that the instrument loses its beauty as soon as it starts to go out of tune. That means more guarantee of requests to come and tune so exactly more often, so good for a tuner's business.

Agreeing with Fred, when not using a Well Temperament, using 1/4 comma meantone deliberately and deliberately playing Mozart in F Minor I tell people that the tuning I've chosen would make a dog want to howl. It's really effective, and intentional in Mozart's 2nd sonata, 2nd movement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFKlNDddWlA and it's so effectively dour, sad, mournful and everything about being buried in the grave that someone widowed recently said they cried and had to stop listening half way through. Of course this IS NOT the tuning that we're talking about for universal use as a replacement for ET, but demonstrates capacity for emotion in the extreme.

On a secondary subject, a friend tuned Serkin 7th comma meantone on one of my instruments and this is a subtle sort of tuning relying on changing beats rather than pure and less pure intervals. To be frank I found the beating distracting to the music and why I prefer going to stronger temperaments contrasting pure with impure rather than those merely trying not to be ET for the sake of being ET but not.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message

Original Message------

Fred,
I read many quotes from Orgel Probe and and Musicalische Temperatur (1691) and several other of his publications that I dont recall the names of now, given in Reinhards book that Mr. Pinnegar had posted. I would read the entire thing but have yet to find an English translation. Werkmeister likened a good temperament to something that is more like nature and therefore more beautiful and equal temperaments are not natural. Personally, I agree with this statement. But that is just one of many of the quotes given about his belief in the superiority of unequal temperaments. Many of them were based in his aesthics and philisohical dispositions. I don't have the time to go back through the book at the moment, but if you read it you will find the others. For this reason I assumend (maybe wrongly) that because of his vocal preference for his unequal tunings, that he likely used them unless the organs he was tuning were supposed to follow a meantone tradition. Yes he did have different opinions at times, and had said that equal temperament was acceptable for some situations. There are other quotes from contempories of Werkmiester about key color. Again Reinhards book contains many quotes from various sources, and explains this much better than I can in a simple post.

Of course the tuning would drift overtime and the entire compass would need to be tuned again. Practically speaking, a musician would not have been likely to do this daily. But maybe Bach was that fast? I would assume that he would likely clean things up get to work and do a full tuning when the need arose. Maybe weekly? Tuning a harpsichord is not as laboriuous a task as tuning a modern piano by any stretch. As the instrument drifts the temperament would be likely to become more irregular and when it was too irregular to bear the entire instrument would be retuned. It would be like the woodworker putting off sharpening his plane iron until he started getting tearout. (Although good artisans would know to sharpen more frequently). I do agree with you that Bach would have done what was simple and fast though, thats how all good artisans work. Not standing in tune as well would add more irregularity faster to instruments than we have today, so in that respect they would likely to have been used to more "key color" or "out of tuneness" simply from instruments drifting faster than they do today with Damp Chasers and iron frames. But that drift would not have been likely to be towards ET. Tuning pure in their day would have easier due the nature of the instruments design, which has now been all but forgotten, and the pure wrought iron and brass wire that is easy to hear the fundamental very clearly on. (Which has not been available for over 150 years until recently from Stephen Birkett)
Also tuning is not a quirky detail it is a very special natural phenomenon that has been studied since the days of Pythagoras, and Kepler used his knowledge of it to help him discover the three laws of planetary motion. Proportions, and proportional exploration ruled the arts and sciences for hundreds of years and were held in very high regard until into the 20th century. High arts were governed by the proper use of correct proprtions, simple whole number ratios being the most important for good harmony.

Overall I am not terribly concerned with conituning a debate on what was actually practiced, but what I think sounds best. Learning about the use of temperament over the course of musical history has helped me reach this decision, and you have been instrumental in that, and I thank you for that. What I think sounds best is variety, not constant incessant equal temperament on every piano that is recored on and played in concert. This I can say with surety was not the norm in Bachs day. Do I have some vendetta against ET? No, I use it daily to make a living, but would be very happy and eager to use other temperaments should my clients desire.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

16. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Jason Leininger

Posted 02-23-2019 12:03

David. Very good point about the piano losing its purity faster when tuned with more pure intervals. I am really thankful for evryones input on this subject and don't want to come across saying what I think the "right" or the "best" temperament is. I think that the choice will be dictated by the situation and I think researching, as David suggested, how different temperaments effect different pianos is extremely interesting.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

Original Message

Original Message:
Sent: 02-23-2019 10:36
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Dear Jason

I'm with you on all of your approach. It really is about what sounds really good (even best) but to those who have only experienced good equal temperament better than that can be hardly imagined.

Do I have some vendetta against ET? No, I use it daily to make a living, but would be very happy and eager to use other temperaments should my clients desire.

The point is that many musicians haven't even come across the subject so don't know that they might desire it.

One area to start with is where one knows that the only player in the house is a beginner. Then they will be bowled over by the sound and never look back. And the sound is so pure, as I hope my YouTube recordings have demonstrated, particularly the C major Bach and some of the Debussy and Ravel, that the instrument loses its beauty as soon as it starts to go out of tune. That means more guarantee of requests to come and tune so exactly more often, so good for a tuner's business.

Agreeing with Fred, when not using a Well Temperament, using 1/4 comma meantone deliberately and deliberately playing Mozart in F Minor I tell people that the tuning I've chosen would make a dog want to howl. It's really effective, and intentional in Mozart's 2nd sonata, 2nd movement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFKlNDddWlA and it's so effectively dour, sad, mournful and everything about being buried in the grave that someone widowed recently said they cried and had to stop listening half way through. Of course this IS NOT the tuning that we're talking about for universal use as a replacement for ET, but demonstrates capacity for emotion in the extreme.

On a secondary subject, a friend tuned Serkin 7th comma meantone on one of my instruments and this is a subtle sort of tuning relying on changing beats rather than pure and less pure intervals. To be frank I found the beating distracting to the music and why I prefer going to stronger temperaments contrasting pure with impure rather than those merely trying not to be ET for the sake of being ET but not.

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message------

Fred,
I read many quotes from Orgel Probe and and Musicalische Temperatur (1691) and several other of his publications that I dont recall the names of now, given in Reinhards book that Mr. Pinnegar had posted. I would read the entire thing but have yet to find an English translation. Werkmeister likened a good temperament to something that is more like nature and therefore more beautiful and equal temperaments are not natural. Personally, I agree with this statement. But that is just one of many of the quotes given about his belief in the superiority of unequal temperaments. Many of them were based in his aesthics and philisohical dispositions. I don't have the time to go back through the book at the moment, but if you read it you will find the others. For this reason I assumend (maybe wrongly) that because of his vocal preference for his unequal tunings, that he likely used them unless the organs he was tuning were supposed to follow a meantone tradition. Yes he did have different opinions at times, and had said that equal temperament was acceptable for some situations. There are other quotes from contempories of Werkmiester about key color. Again Reinhards book contains many quotes from various sources, and explains this much better than I can in a simple post.

Of course the tuning would drift overtime and the entire compass would need to be tuned again. Practically speaking, a musician would not have been likely to do this daily. But maybe Bach was that fast? I would assume that he would likely clean things up get to work and do a full tuning when the need arose. Maybe weekly? Tuning a harpsichord is not as laboriuous a task as tuning a modern piano by any stretch. As the instrument drifts the temperament would be likely to become more irregular and when it was too irregular to bear the entire instrument would be retuned. It would be like the woodworker putting off sharpening his plane iron until he started getting tearout. (Although good artisans would know to sharpen more frequently). I do agree with you that Bach would have done what was simple and fast though, thats how all good artisans work. Not standing in tune as well would add more irregularity faster to instruments than we have today, so in that respect they would likely to have been used to more "key color" or "out of tuneness" simply from instruments drifting faster than they do today with Damp Chasers and iron frames. But that drift would not have been likely to be towards ET. Tuning pure in their day would have easier due the nature of the instruments design, which has now been all but forgotten, and the pure wrought iron and brass wire that is easy to hear the fundamental very clearly on. (Which has not been available for over 150 years until recently from Stephen Birkett)
Also tuning is not a quirky detail it is a very special natural phenomenon that has been studied since the days of Pythagoras, and Kepler used his knowledge of it to help him discover the three laws of planetary motion. Proportions, and proportional exploration ruled the arts and sciences for hundreds of years and were held in very high regard until into the 20th century. High arts were governed by the proper use of correct proprtions, simple whole number ratios being the most important for good harmony.

Overall I am not terribly concerned with conituning a debate on what was actually practiced, but what I think sounds best. Learning about the use of temperament over the course of musical history has helped me reach this decision, and you have been instrumental in that, and I thank you for that. What I think sounds best is variety, not constant incessant equal temperament on every piano that is recored on and played in concert. This I can say with surety was not the norm in Bachs day. Do I have some vendetta against ET? No, I use it daily to make a living, but would be very happy and eager to use other temperaments should my clients desire.

------------------------------
Jason Leininger
Pittsburgh PA
412-874-6992
------------------------------

17. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

Recommend

Registered Piano Technician

Richard West

Posted 02-23-2019 13:08

I'm not a big fan of unequal temperaments on modern pianos. First of all equal temperament is a theoretical construct that is essentially impossible on a device made of wood. There is an inherent imprecision that makes the quest for a truely "equal" temperament impossible. Fortunately the human ear is forgiving and mingles the faults into a wonderful perception that is beautiful, harmonious, and satisfying.

So I bristle when ET is characterized as boring, vanilla, and "stuck in the past." There is a beauty in the regularity and harmoniousness in equal temperament today. Modern performance is not harmed by ET. In some ways ET might be characterized as liberating and free because the performer is not constricted by an unequal temperament that is stuck in the past and may offend modern ears.

So my stance is don't denigrate ET. I have tuned many an unequal temperament on harpsichords and fortepianos. I like unequal temperaments in that they bring to modern ears what composers of the past actually heard. But, in so far as one can tune ET, it stands tall against any and all would be competitors, and is far from boring to my ears. Or perhaps one could say ET is the ultimate unequal temperament that brings past and present together. ET is never fully achieved, and is, therefore, infinitely, microscopically variable. How's that for exciting!

Richard West

Original Message

Original Message------

Dear Jason

I'm with you on all of your approach. It really is about what sounds really good (even best) but to those who have only experienced good equal temperament better than that can be hardly imagined.

Do I have some vendetta against ET? No, I use it daily to make a living, but would be very happy and eager to use other temperaments should my clients desire.

The point is that many musicians haven't even come across the subject so don't know that they might desire it.

One area to start with is where one knows that the only player in the house is a beginner. Then they will be bowled over by the sound and never look back. And the sound is so pure, as I hope my YouTube recordings have demonstrated, particularly the C major Bach and some of the Debussy and Ravel, that the instrument loses its beauty as soon as it starts to go out of tune. That means more guarantee of requests to come and tune so exactly more often, so good for a tuner's business.

Agreeing with Fred, when not using a Well Temperament, using 1/4 comma meantone deliberately and deliberately playing Mozart in F Minor I tell people that the tuning I've chosen would make a dog want to howl. It's really effective, and intentional in Mozart's 2nd sonata, 2nd movement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFKlNDddWlA and it's so effectively dour, sad, mournful and everything about being buried in the grave that someone widowed recently said they cried and had to stop listening half way through. Of course this IS NOT the tuning that we're talking about for universal use as a replacement for ET, but demonstrates capacity for emotion in the extreme.

On a secondary subject, a friend tuned Serkin 7th comma meantone on one of my instruments and this is a subtle sort of tuning relying on changing beats rather than pure and less pure intervals. To be frank I found the beating distracting to the music and why I prefer going to stronger temperaments contrasting pure with impure rather than those merely trying not to be ET for the sake of being ET but not.

Best wishes

David P

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David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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+44 1342 850594

18. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

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David Pinnegar

Posted 02-23-2019 15:25

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Dear Richard

I understand where you're coming from and tuned ET myself for 25 years with increasing sophistication.

But the spreadsheet with which I've headed this thread, and attached here again for convenience demonstrates that there is something to be researched in the use of UT on modern instruments, possibly with tonal improvements. There are many UTs and which ones you've used for fortepianos and how you've executed them of course I can't tell, but a dozen years' experience has demonstrated the one that I've used to be capable of universal use and particularly when stretch is not used in the central three octaves.

This can be critical to the experience. When I was using a stretch, tuning the octave below middle C was difficult and the critical C#F interval could be too wide in particular, to the extent that I was sympathetic to people being dubious about it. For anyone using Tunelab I'm attaching some files of tunings I was doing on instruments on which I was still using stretch successfully. The Steinway Boston tuning file was the one which resulted in the recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z3o0x4dKJI . The Grotrian tuning resulted in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnYITP11UgQ The Yamaha C2 and G3 instruments were very much appreciated by their owners and the C3 serves for a church both for hymn singing and recitals from time to time. This is the instrument recorded on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7v5jYkw13w with a piece by Paart which is rather good for hearing tuning. The .txt files are the measured inharmonicity files and the .tun files are as tuned these instruments were tuned using Kellner and stretch in those days.

I'm not here to preach, merely to be able to bring evidence of experiment and recordings over many years to open ears.

Perhaps you might not like the Paart but I think it records beautifully. The bass is not how I tune now with the recipe given in relation to no middle stretch and the bass tuned harmonically. This recording was early on the learning curve so not perfect. Sorry!

The result of the unstretched UT in the middle three octaves is that we're then tuning those intervals strictly to their musical scale, to the proportions of vibrations between notes given by the harmony, and then we're tuning the bass to reinforce on those frequencies. In contrast when we tune a good ET from conventional wisdom, we're tuning the harmony creating sounds in the middle to the pattern of stretch between bass harmonics and treble, and then we rely on the piano being a good piano to make a nice sound. This is independent of the music whereas the tuning of the scale to numbers of perfect intervals brings the piano perhaps more into the harmony of the music. Perhaps this might sound a crass explanation and others might come to similar conclusions with other or better explanations, but the fact that others apart from me are coming independently to similar conclusions is rather interesting, and indicates something worthy perhaps of wider investigation.

"Most musicians" won't necessarily be interested because they've been shielded from the issue and don't know anything about it. What is unknown is often feared. And especially by people who are very proud of having spent £80,000 on an instrument - surely the manufacturers must know best! And will it damage my piano?! Yes there are many misconceptions.

As I write I'm listening to the Paart and the stillness and vibrations are . . . sufficient to urge you to hear them. I've overlooked this recording in the past. Perhaps the music is simply innately beautiful but I think the tuning here contributes.

Whether privately or to the group I'm not sure, probably the group so I'll mention here, Kent has responded with some very valid observations about contracted fifths and the extent to which they're disturbing. In some temperaments I'd agree they might be, but in the two temperaments I know, Kellner and Kirnberger III these temperaments were cleverly arranged. Kirnberger has the perfect major 3rd in C major which brings purity to the triad whilst in Kellner the perfect third is widened to beat as fast as the perfect fifth is narrowed. The beating of the third in the triad masks the beating of the fifth and it's warm. We tend in these temperaments to get really lovely nearer pure thirds in the home keys with the tempered 5ths, and then in the more remote keys we tend to get really pure fifths which make up for the widened thirds, so swinging from one sort of harmoniousness to another. Thus my enthusiasm and findings as recorded in YouTube videos.

I'm sure that those with more experience than I might find more from the spreadsheet in terms of resonances, confusion of sustaining pedal and harmonic accord.

Part of the point of what I'm doing is to bring more appreciation of sound, of harmony to musicians and audiences right from the heart of the instrument.

In due course I'll find some interesting quotes from Anita Sullivan's book "The Seventh Dragon" - the Riddle of Equal Temperament. She's really poetic and writes beautifully and explains the philosophy of getting the instrument in tune with itself. (In fact saying it that way becomes interesting because it's an open admission that the instrument is being tuned to its own inharmonicity rather than to the musical ratios of vibrations of our defined harmonic scale). In her Appendix she mentions UT and compares it to salad and as to whether you choose salad dressing or not.

"If you choose a plain salad, you have chosen ET"

"Then you make the basic selection among basic types of dressings - blue cheese, balsamic vinaigrette, oil and vinegar etc"

"You must choose between basic types of temperament - meantone, modified meantone, "well", contemporary"

"If you choose oil and vinegar, then you must decide what kind of oil and what kind of vinegar. But the choices need not stop here."

"If you have chosen an historic "well" temperament, now you have to make further distinctions - Vallotti, Kirnberger, Bendeler, etc"

(I haven't come across Bendeler!)

"Your olice oil may be Spanish or Italian; it may come from a particular area of Italy or California, and be heavy and fruity, or light and mild. Your vinegar may be red or white, and may be flavored with tarragon. . . . The subtle distinctions call forth the utmost discriminating faculties of your palate. Your wellbeing is influenced in ways you are not even aware of!

And then of course someone forgot to take out the bay leaf. Maybe that is the wolf interval."

I think many musicians don't know that salad dressings are possible which really do avoid bay leaves and the Bay Leaf has given UT a bad reputation. There are others who simply don't know that salad dressing exists at all.

And for many of the public who hear classical music, the plain salad has become boring and the variety that musicians are left to give them is between red tomatoes and green lettuce. Students at some Conservatoires are now instructed that they can't play Liszt unless they break strings! We don't need anchovies in our salads! There are more subtle ways of getting variety.

So I hope that with the experience and recordings given I've been able to cut through the varieties of salad dressings and find ways to guarantee avoiding the bay leaves, so possibly providing the inspiration to persuade musicians to put away the anchovies and to explore beyond the confines of plain salad. No worries - it's safe.

Best wishes

David P

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David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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+44 1342 850594

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temperaments.xls 169 KB 1 version

Original Message

19. RE: Improving piano tone through tuning and temperament

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Registered Piano Technician

Richard West

Posted 02-23-2019 16:24

We all have creative ways of describing things. Anita's description falls short and doesn't do ET justice. Every temperament could be described as a different dish altogether. Equally delicious. ET may be the more widely tasted, but it is more than just "plain" salad, and that's what I'm trying to get past. ET is not plain, or vanilla, or boring, IMHO. And I feel the need to stand up and defend ET when I see unfair even demeaning characterizations. That's my main point. A dessert like apple pie with all of its variations is widely appreciated. Hasty pudding, on the other hand, is less well known, but may certainly be very tasty as well.