Pianotech

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

On 1- I think you've done what should be done...let the parts get air away from any sun coming in the window. I would not try and speed things up....just wait for drying and equilibrium to be reached slowly and naturally, except at the string rest area. Dry the string area as fast as you can.

2- on the keyframe etc...don't rush it...air all sides like you are doing, and wait. One of the advantages of an aged wooden system like that, is, at this point it will have relieved embodied stresses already. Just let it regain it previous equilibrium. The key slip may be warping because the front is finished, and the back is not. I think when things dry out thoroughly, it may return to its previous shape. We are talking a good 2 months, I would say. 

I'd encourage the client to be patient, and don't rush anything. 

3- action replacement...not sure. I'd file the insurance claim assuming the worst, and wait to see what full drying leaves you with.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Keep an eye on glue joints, key buttons and shoes, back check riser blocks, key end and bushing felts. Back checks coming apart?

The reps could be coming apart too, jack, rep support post, hammer rest felt and block. Knuckles coming apart.

After an initial drying of the keys, it might be a good idea to clamp each section together to prevent warping. It'll take longer to dry but you could place them in the sunlight or close to a heat source. I think clamping each section, front, center and back will help to prevent individual keys warping. Paper/thin cardboard in between the keys?

The key frame is going to warp and re-dishing the bottom with a belt sander will be needed. I'm doing that currently. As well as re-glueing and re-leveling the key bed at the end joints and maybe the longitudinal boards.

A good time to upgrade to WNG action parts.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 10:19
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

On 1- I think you've done what should be done...let the parts get air away from any sun coming in the window. I would not try and speed things up....just wait for drying and equilibrium to be reached slowly and naturally, except at the string rest area. Dry the string area as fast as you can.

2- on the keyframe etc...don't rush it...air all sides like you are doing, and wait. One of the advantages of an aged wooden system like that, is, at this point it will have relieved embodied stresses already. Just let it regain it previous equilibrium. The key slip may be warping because the front is finished, and the back is not. I think when things dry out thoroughly, it may return to its previous shape. We are talking a good 2 months, I would say.

I'd encourage the client to be patient, and don't rush anything.

3- action replacement...not sure. I'd file the insurance claim assuming the worst, and wait to see what full drying leaves you with.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Your queries are spot-on, Jon, as usual!

The glue joints on some backchecks, keyend felts, knuckles and the like have given up the ghost.

Regarding clamping the keys together in sections, would the paper/cardboard shims be to impart straightness to the sides of the keysticks? Or to keep them from sticking to each other? (Or both?) If for straightness, what about using lengths of something more rigid than paper products for each leg of the keys?

Please elaborate on what you mean by "re-dishing" the keyframe with a belt sander.

In total agreement about the opportunity to upgrade the action parts to WNG, and am encouraging the client to do so.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 10:45
From: Jon Page
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Keep an eye on glue joints, key buttons and shoes, back check riser blocks, key end and bushing felts. Back checks coming apart?

The reps could be coming apart too, jack, rep support post, hammer rest felt and block. Knuckles coming apart.

After an initial drying of the keys, it might be a good idea to clamp each section together to prevent warping. It'll take longer to dry but you could place them in the sunlight or close to a heat source. I think clamping each section, front, center and back will help to prevent individual keys warping. Paper/thin cardboard in between the keys?

The key frame is going to warp and re-dishing the bottom with a belt sander will be needed. I'm doing that currently. As well as re-glueing and re-leveling the key bed at the end joints and maybe the longitudinal boards.

A good time to upgrade to WNG action parts.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 10:19
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

On 1- I think you've done what should be done...let the parts get air away from any sun coming in the window. I would not try and speed things up....just wait for drying and equilibrium to be reached slowly and naturally, except at the string rest area. Dry the string area as fast as you can.

2- on the keyframe etc...don't rush it...air all sides like you are doing, and wait. One of the advantages of an aged wooden system like that, is, at this point it will have relieved embodied stresses already. Just let it regain it previous equilibrium. The key slip may be warping because the front is finished, and the back is not. I think when things dry out thoroughly, it may return to its previous shape. We are talking a good 2 months, I would say.

I'd encourage the client to be patient, and don't rush anything.

3- action replacement...not sure. I'd file the insurance claim assuming the worst, and wait to see what full drying leaves you with.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Thanks, Jim.

Regarding the key slip (currently supported at the ends, with a weight in the middle to counteract the warping), are you advising against the use of a weight?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 10:19
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

On 1- I think you've done what should be done...let the parts get air away from any sun coming in the window. I would not try and speed things up....just wait for drying and equilibrium to be reached slowly and naturally, except at the string rest area. Dry the string area as fast as you can.

2- on the keyframe etc...don't rush it...air all sides like you are doing, and wait. One of the advantages of an aged wooden system like that, is, at this point it will have relieved embodied stresses already. Just let it regain it previous equilibrium. The key slip may be warping because the front is finished, and the back is not. I think when things dry out thoroughly, it may return to its previous shape. We are talking a good 2 months, I would say.

I'd encourage the client to be patient, and don't rush anything.

3- action replacement...not sure. I'd file the insurance claim assuming the worst, and wait to see what full drying leaves you with.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

All of this is highly speculative...we don't know. My experience of trying to bully a piece into submission is that the cell chemistry and whether it has been altered or not wins...and one can't know the outcome until the thing dries and equilibrates. It may or may not regain its former shape. As per my own experience, I would let it be and see what the wood does on its own. If I were to try and bully it into submission, it might boingle back into non-submission at a future time, and that unknowing would be unacceptable to me.

That's why I would just wait and see what the piano says its willing to give you, as to whether there is hope or whether it is toast. In any case, toast or not, serious restoration and replacement of parts are going to be necessary, so the calculation probably makes sense, from the homeowner's perspective, to consider it a total loss. A rebuilder may be able to make something of the core, but the homeowner may be better served accepting the as-yet-unknown as a  total loss.

Regarding the key slip, if the wood takes off and retains the warp, making a new keyslip, which is not a big deal at all, is the least of their worries.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2021 09:24
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Thanks, Jim.

Regarding the key slip (currently supported at the ends, with a weight in the middle to counteract the warping), are you advising against the use of a weight?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 10:19
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

On 1- I think you've done what should be done...let the parts get air away from any sun coming in the window. I would not try and speed things up....just wait for drying and equilibrium to be reached slowly and naturally, except at the string rest area. Dry the string area as fast as you can.

2- on the keyframe etc...don't rush it...air all sides like you are doing, and wait. One of the advantages of an aged wooden system like that, is, at this point it will have relieved embodied stresses already. Just let it regain it previous equilibrium. The key slip may be warping because the front is finished, and the back is not. I think when things dry out thoroughly, it may return to its previous shape. We are talking a good 2 months, I would say.

I'd encourage the client to be patient, and don't rush anything.

3- action replacement...not sure. I'd file the insurance claim assuming the worst, and wait to see what full drying leaves you with.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I have dealt with a number of water exposed and damaged pianos . I would suggest getting a quality moisture meter and take readings all over the action cavity including the key bed, key frame, keysticks, underside of the block, action rails. This way you will have a baseline to start with and it will help monitor the moisture over time. The problem is the amount of material directly exposed as well as felts, glues, joints that got directly wet or where exposed. There are lots of potential problems down the road such as swollen action center, glue joint failure. I had a set of keys sitting on the floor of my shop that got wet when flooding street water got under the garage door. Most of the keys had dog leg key sticks which counter-acted the tendency to warp. I dried them out under a ceiling fan and monitored the moisture. In your situation you are likely to have the keybuttons and keycoverings loosen and/or fall off, need to rebush keys, replace hammers, shanks, flanges. If bass strings got wet they will be toast and glue joints between bridges and soundboard are likely to fail. You could see soundboard cracks along the glue joints. At first things look good but as the moisture leaves the nightmare begins. Make sure you are clear that what you do may not save the piano. The Australian Piano Technicians Guild issued guidance on flooded/water damaged pianos. I will send you a copy if you wish but essentially it suggests condemning the pianos

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Like you, James, I am a long-time user of wood moisture meters. After one day of drying, the keybed is reading around 16% EMC. I can tell you that hammers that would not return initially (as if suffering from severe verdigris) are noe back to their original (somewhat too little) center pin bushing friction. However, I would not trust the glue joints on those puppies any farther than I could throw them.

Hadn't thought about compromised glue joints in the keytops. Will add that to my watchlist.

It will be interesting to see how much the keys "return" to their original shape and dimension as they dry out. I will be astonished if the key bushings of the most adversely affected keys survive this ordeal is useable condition. One prominent key maker has advised declaring the keyset and keyframe D.O.A. (although, in the interest of the ongoing research and development that is essential to furthering the state-of-the-art of piano technology, I will closely monitor to what extent the keys "return" to their original status).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 11:36
From: James Kelly
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

I have dealt with a number of water exposed and damaged pianos . I would suggest getting a quality moisture meter and take readings all over the action cavity including the key bed, key frame, keysticks, underside of the block, action rails. This way you will have a baseline to start with and it will help monitor the moisture over time. The problem is the amount of material directly exposed as well as felts, glues, joints that got directly wet or where exposed. There are lots of potential problems down the road such as swollen action center, glue joint failure. I had a set of keys sitting on the floor of my shop that got wet when flooding street water got under the garage door. Most of the keys had dog leg key sticks which counter-acted the tendency to warp. I dried them out under a ceiling fan and monitored the moisture. In your situation you are likely to have the keybuttons and keycoverings loosen and/or fall off, need to rebush keys, replace hammers, shanks, flanges. If bass strings got wet they will be toast and glue joints between bridges and soundboard are likely to fail. You could see soundboard cracks along the glue joints. At first things look good but as the moisture leaves the nightmare begins. Make sure you are clear that what you do may not save the piano. The Australian Piano Technicians Guild issued guidance on flooded/water damaged pianos. I will send you a copy if you wish but essentially it suggests condemning the pianos

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan

This piano is a total loss. Parts might dry out, but the felts will be compromoised. The water also damaged the keybed, and if the water got in the action, it also ran over the strings and probably the pins. There is nothing anyine can do to salvage this piano.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan, I had a similar incident at BU/ Music a Model B less than 2 Years old ​ in a Piano Performance studio that housed 2 pianos , the new one (of course!) happened to be positioned  underneath an older ceiling AC unit and during one summer weekend  there was a malfunction with this AC unit and gallons of water spilled into the piano,  soundboard soaked ,strings rusted, key bushings etc all unglued.
Hopefully you took multiple  pics. of the damage and ideally an independent damage assessment and appraisal, and insurance company contacted, with water damage  you have to let  the drying out play it's course  and not rush in to make necessary repairs. This piano may never be  of the same quality  again but that's what insurance is for.

------------------------------
Martin Snow
South Burlington VT
617-543-1030
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 13:31
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan

This piano is a total loss. Parts might dry out, but the felts will be compromoised. The water also damaged the keybed, and if the water got in the action, it also ran over the strings and probably the pins. There is nothing anyine can do to salvage this piano.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Martin,

The situation you describe from BU sounds truly calamitous!

Yes, I have been making an extensive photo log of the damage and drying process. Not sure what you mean by "an independent damage assessment and appraisal." Independent of the insurance company? Of me? Please help me out here.

Happy New Year, y'all!

Alan

P. S. The piano owner acknowledged that if only he had COMPLETELY CLOSED THE PIANO (front lid and key-cover down and piano cover in position), the damage would have been enormously mitigated! (see attached image) A cautionary tale...

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 19:56
From: Martin Snow
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan, I had a similar incident at BU/ Music a Model B less than 2 Years old ​ in a Piano Performance studio that housed 2 pianos , the new one (of course!) happened to be positioned  underneath an older ceiling AC unit and during one summer weekend  there was a malfunction with this AC unit and gallons of water spilled into the piano,  soundboard soaked ,strings rusted, key bushings etc all unglued.
Hopefully you took multiple  pics. of the damage and ideally an independent damage assessment and appraisal, and insurance company contacted, with water damage  you have to let  the drying out play it's course  and not rush in to make necessary repairs. This piano may never be  of the same quality  again but that's what insurance is for.

------------------------------
Martin Snow
South Burlington VT
617-543-1030

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 13:31
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan

This piano is a total loss. Parts might dry out, but the felts will be compromoised. The water also damaged the keybed, and if the water got in the action, it also ran over the strings and probably the pins. There is nothing anyine can do to salvage this piano.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Looking at that picture reminds me of a Knabe grand that was under a second floor bathroom . The jacuzzi tub plumbing let go all over the piano however woolen Dawson string cover soaked up all the water. The only two things that got wet were the bass end cheek block and a small  area of keybed. The owner had the presence of mind to move the piano a few feet away and removed the wet string cover that actually had a puddle of collected water in it.

I have several moisture meters ranging from an analog meter that shows color coded zones and is like an older voltmeter; a unit that generates a clicking noise based on the moisture level and a sophisticated lignomat unit with digital displays and two settings for different wood species. I monitored the moisture level on a baldwin acro spinet nearly every Sunday for two months and marked test spots with chaulk. I also drew lines across soundboard joints and marked areas on the bridges that had sat under water. At first things seemed intact but as the piano dried out (it was in a different home) . Soundboard cracks opened up , bridges lifted at the ends, bass strings went dead, bottomboard cracked, backbeam glue joints failed .

I think it is impossible to predict what will happen with this piano even if you go with the WN&G action as a replacement. It is a huge amount of work and the replacement parts, labor and headaches may far exceed the pianos value. That said getting an independent appraisal of the piano from a certified piano appraiser may be a good way to get a valuation. Someone advertises in the journal . An independent insurance adjuster in  your area or a piano dealer may have someone they can recommend.  There also may be insurance limits and deductibles that the client will have to deal with. Water damage claims are tricky

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2021 10:22
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Martin,

The situation you describe from BU sounds truly calamitous!

Yes, I have been making an extensive photo log of the damage and drying process. Not sure what you mean by "an independent damage assessment and appraisal." Independent of the insurance company? Of me? Please help me out here.

Happy New Year, y'all!

Alan

P. S. The piano owner acknowledged that if only he had COMPLETELY CLOSED THE PIANO (front lid and key-cover down and piano cover in position), the damage would have been enormously mitigated! (see attached image) A cautionary tale...

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 19:56
From: Martin Snow
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan, I had a similar incident at BU/ Music a Model B less than 2 Years old ​ in a Piano Performance studio that housed 2 pianos , the new one (of course!) happened to be positioned  underneath an older ceiling AC unit and during one summer weekend  there was a malfunction with this AC unit and gallons of water spilled into the piano,  soundboard soaked ,strings rusted, key bushings etc all unglued.
Hopefully you took multiple  pics. of the damage and ideally an independent damage assessment and appraisal, and insurance company contacted, with water damage  you have to let  the drying out play it's course  and not rush in to make necessary repairs. This piano may never be  of the same quality  again but that's what insurance is for.

------------------------------
Martin Snow
South Burlington VT
617-543-1030

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 13:31
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan

This piano is a total loss. Parts might dry out, but the felts will be compromoised. The water also damaged the keybed, and if the water got in the action, it also ran over the strings and probably the pins. There is nothing anyine can do to salvage this piano.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Thank you for bringing up the role of a good string cover, James! I neglected to mention that this piano had an Edwards wool cover. It was heavy with water saturation as I lifted it out of the piano, steeling myself for what I would find underneath it. But to my surprise, the cover had taken the hit that would have otherwise beed on the strings and belly system. Not that one should get a string cover in case a pipe bursts over a piano. After all, we don't plan on such things happening, but then neither do we plan to get in an automobile accident, or to die ;-), and yet we do safeguard against those things happening. I'm jus' sayin'...

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2021 11:15
From: James Kelly
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Looking at that picture reminds me of a Knabe grand that was under a second floor bathroom . The jacuzzi tub plumbing let go all over the piano however woolen Dawson string cover soaked up all the water. The only two things that got wet were the bass end cheek block and a small  area of keybed. The owner had the presence of mind to move the piano a few feet away and removed the wet string cover that actually had a puddle of collected water in it.

I have several moisture meters ranging from an analog meter that shows color coded zones and is like an older voltmeter; a unit that generates a clicking noise based on the moisture level and a sophisticated lignomat unit with digital displays and two settings for different wood species. I monitored the moisture level on a baldwin acro spinet nearly every Sunday for two months and marked test spots with chaulk. I also drew lines across soundboard joints and marked areas on the bridges that had sat under water. At first things seemed intact but as the piano dried out (it was in a different home) . Soundboard cracks opened up , bridges lifted at the ends, bass strings went dead, bottomboard cracked, backbeam glue joints failed .

I think it is impossible to predict what will happen with this piano even if you go with the WN&G action as a replacement. It is a huge amount of work and the replacement parts, labor and headaches may far exceed the pianos value. That said getting an independent appraisal of the piano from a certified piano appraiser may be a good way to get a valuation. Someone advertises in the journal . An independent insurance adjuster in  your area or a piano dealer may have someone they can recommend.  There also may be insurance limits and deductibles that the client will have to deal with. Water damage claims are tricky

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2021 10:22
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Martin,

The situation you describe from BU sounds truly calamitous!

Yes, I have been making an extensive photo log of the damage and drying process. Not sure what you mean by "an independent damage assessment and appraisal." Independent of the insurance company? Of me? Please help me out here.

Happy New Year, y'all!

Alan

P. S. The piano owner acknowledged that if only he had COMPLETELY CLOSED THE PIANO (front lid and key-cover down and piano cover in position), the damage would have been enormously mitigated! (see attached image) A cautionary tale...

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 19:56
From: Martin Snow
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan, I had a similar incident at BU/ Music a Model B less than 2 Years old ​ in a Piano Performance studio that housed 2 pianos , the new one (of course!) happened to be positioned  underneath an older ceiling AC unit and during one summer weekend  there was a malfunction with this AC unit and gallons of water spilled into the piano,  soundboard soaked ,strings rusted, key bushings etc all unglued.
Hopefully you took multiple  pics. of the damage and ideally an independent damage assessment and appraisal, and insurance company contacted, with water damage  you have to let  the drying out play it's course  and not rush in to make necessary repairs. This piano may never be  of the same quality  again but that's what insurance is for.

------------------------------
Martin Snow
South Burlington VT
617-543-1030

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 13:31
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan

This piano is a total loss. Parts might dry out, but the felts will be compromoised. The water also damaged the keybed, and if the water got in the action, it also ran over the strings and probably the pins. There is nothing anyine can do to salvage this piano.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Wim,

I would not go so far as to say that, "There is not anything anyone can do to salvage this piano." If it were at my school, and insurance refused outright replacement), I would be inclined to patch it up and see what happens as the years roll by.

As per my original post, the strings and belly appear to be unaffected, due to the specific area where water entered the piano. The keybed, action and finish, however, are seriously compromised.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 13:31
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Alan

This piano is a total loss. Parts might dry out, but the felts will be compromoised. The water also damaged the keybed, and if the water got in the action, it also ran over the strings and probably the pins. There is nothing anyine can do to salvage this piano.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I have seen this happen many times where I work, and I share a lot with the responses already submitted. I don’t believe the piano is a loss though. I have witnessed a remarkable recovery on a Steinway D similarly victimized. Though strings and pinblock were replaced, along with all action parts, 2 years later, it’s doing well. But every case will be different. Other pianos damaged similarly took 2-3 years for glue joints to fail.
I do think drying but not too fast will be your best, immediate friend.
But stay tuned, and keep watching things- for a few years!

Joe Wiencek
NYCI


Original Message:
Sent: 12/31/2020 9:49:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Thanks, Joe,

As Dean said, other than the keybed and main action, this piano could still have some life left in it.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2021 18:57
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

I have seen this happen many times where I work, and I share a lot with the responses already submitted. I don't believe the piano is a loss though. I have witnessed a remarkable recovery on a Steinway D similarly victimized. Though strings and pinblock were replaced, along with all action parts, 2 years later, it's doing well. But every case will be different. Other pianos damaged similarly took 2-3 years for glue joints to fail.
I do think drying but not too fast will be your best, immediate friend.
But stay tuned, and keep watching things- for a few years!

Joe Wiencek
NYCI


Original Message:
Sent: 12/31/2020 9:49:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

That brings up a question, Joe. In view of an insurance claim, what is the protocol for allowing for future signs of damage over a period of time as long as two or three years? Or is there any? I’ve never been in that situation so I have no idea how an insurance company looks at it.

Happy New Year everyone!

Bob Anderson, RPT
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 1/1/2021 6:58:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Aftermath of water damage

I have seen this happen many times where I work, and I share a lot with the responses already submitted. I don’t believe the piano is a loss though. I have witnessed a remarkable recovery on a Steinway D similarly victimized. Though strings and pinblock were replaced, along with all action parts, 2 years later, it’s doing well. But every case will be different. Other pianos damaged similarly took 2-3 years for glue joints to fail.
I do think drying but not too fast will be your best, immediate friend.
But stay tuned, and keep watching things- for a few years!

Joe Wiencek
NYCI


Original Message:
Sent: 12/31/2020 9:49:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

When I was dealing with my shop fire, after the initial claim, there was a 2 year period I believe when unnknown collateral damage could be included in the claim. The same goes for personal injury in a car crash, as one cannot klnow all the damage until time elapses. 

Your adjuster would need to be questioned about this. However, as a clarification, that info is in you policy, and frankly, the external and internal adjusters often do not know your policy inside and out, because they administer so many customized insurance products. So you personally need to read every sentence of your policy (when you make a claim), interpret it yourself, and fight to claim whatever your reading says is in the policy, rather than what the adjuster says is in the policy. We fought this battle and won multiple times in our claim, to the tune of an additional 18k.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2021 09:34
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

That brings up a question, Joe. In view of an insurance claim, what is the protocol for allowing for future signs of damage over a period of time as long as two or three years? Or is there any? I've never been in that situation so I have no idea how an insurance company looks at it.

Happy New Year everyone!

Bob Anderson, RPT
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 1/1/2021 6:58:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Aftermath of water damage

I have seen this happen many times where I work, and I share a lot with the responses already submitted. I don't believe the piano is a loss though. I have witnessed a remarkable recovery on a Steinway D similarly victimized. Though strings and pinblock were replaced, along with all action parts, 2 years later, it's doing well. But every case will be different. Other pianos damaged similarly took 2-3 years for glue joints to fail.
I do think drying but not too fast will be your best, immediate friend.
But stay tuned, and keep watching things- for a few years!

Joe Wiencek
NYCI


Original Message:
Sent: 12/31/2020 9:49:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I was going to mention that, too. Insurance companies want to resolve a case as soon as possible and pay as little as possible. I think all of us agree that time is the only way to know for sure what will happen with the piano.  

If the customer has a replacement rider on their policy, then the insurance company is obligated to replace the piano with a new one, but only if the price of rebuilding is less than a the price of a new piano. So that is where we come in with our expertise. Can this piano be rebuilt to be in "ilke new" condition? In my opinion, the only way this piano will be "like new" again is for it to be completely rebuilt, including a new finish, belly, a whole new action, and maybe even the keybed. 

Now, if the customer does not have a replacement rider, then the insurane company should pay to repair the piano as has been suggested, but also not close the case for at least 5 years to allow for nature to dry the piano out.  Given the prospect that the piano might cost the insurance company more money down the road, they might opt to buy a new one and get it over with.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2021 09:34
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

That brings up a question, Joe. In view of an insurance claim, what is the protocol for allowing for future signs of damage over a period of time as long as two or three years? Or is there any? I've never been in that situation so I have no idea how an insurance company looks at it.

Happy New Year everyone!

Bob Anderson, RPT
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 1/1/2021 6:58:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Aftermath of water damage

I have seen this happen many times where I work, and I share a lot with the responses already submitted. I don't believe the piano is a loss though. I have witnessed a remarkable recovery on a Steinway D similarly victimized. Though strings and pinblock were replaced, along with all action parts, 2 years later, it's doing well. But every case will be different. Other pianos damaged similarly took 2-3 years for glue joints to fail.
I do think drying but not too fast will be your best, immediate friend.
But stay tuned, and keep watching things- for a few years!

Joe Wiencek
NYCI


Original Message:
Sent: 12/31/2020 9:49:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Bob,

In the case I was referring to, a Steinway B, I was able to communicate that the full range of damage would not be known for a period of a few to several years. The insurance of course, did not offer the replacement cost of the piano, but they offered enough to buy a comparable Yamaha (CF6.) I was not involved with the actual negotiations though.

Over the last few years, I have done as Alan suggested that he might, patching up as damages surface. In this case, I have also gotten to practice some repairs that normally I would not attempt (re-attaching a section of soundboard coming unglued from the rim, replacing sections of hammers that were damaged (this is a very interesting experiment in trying to blend and smooth touch and voicing.)) And the university students are still able to play on a “Steinway,” which more often than not, will influence them to choose to play it over the adjacent Yamaha.


Joe Wiencek


Original Message:
Sent: 1/2/2021 9:34:00 AM
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: RE: Aftermath of water damage

That brings up a question, Joe. In view of an insurance claim, what is the protocol for allowing for future signs of damage over a period of time as long as two or three years? Or is there any? I’ve never been in that situation so I have no idea how an insurance company looks at it.

Happy New Year everyone!

Bob Anderson, RPT
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 1/1/2021 6:58:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Aftermath of water damage

I have seen this happen many times where I work, and I share a lot with the responses already submitted. I don’t believe the piano is a loss though. I have witnessed a remarkable recovery on a Steinway D similarly victimized. Though strings and pinblock were replaced, along with all action parts, 2 years later, it’s doing well. But every case will be different. Other pianos damaged similarly took 2-3 years for glue joints to fail.
I do think drying but not too fast will be your best, immediate friend.
But stay tuned, and keep watching things- for a few years!

Joe Wiencek
NYCI


Original Message:
Sent: 12/31/2020 9:49:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I dealt with a similar situation some years ago.  The lid was down with half lid folded back.  Water poured into the action, on the pinblock and dampers.  The piano owner was a college professor out of the country for several years and I got a frantic call from the house sitters on New Years Eve.  I went right over, not knowing whose piano it was as the owner had moved since our last tuning.  The house sitter implored me to do a quick fix before the owner returned.  It took at least an hour to remove the action as the hammers were lifted way up, etc.  I spread things out to dry and returned 2 months later - things were not at all normal.  I refused to do anything until the owner was notified and included in all decisions. The sitter called someone else.  The owner eventually returned and called for a tuning.  I went to what he thought was my first visit to that home.  It took some time to convince him I had been there and what I knew.  Of course he was in disbelief that I knew what I was talking about but I pointed out peeling paint on damper heads, pulled the action out and showed other signs like peeling felts on sos tabs, etc.  He then shared his surprise that the sitters had repainted the ceiling.  Why would someone paint the ceiling?  Well, he wanted to know what the future held and I told him one day he would be playing and a note would jam (jack toe falling off, letoff felt falling off, etc.)  Next visit he said I was exactly right but would I rebuild the piano.  I didn't think it was his best choice as he was pondering moving up to an A or a B.  Several decades ago, while at North Bennet, David Betts had told me he always waited at least a year for the piano to go through the full cycle of seasonal changes before any sense of stability could return and one could get a better idea..  So we did a wait and see. the pin block initially felt fine, the occasional action parts needed repair.  After another year or so tuning pins began loosening badly  It was a constant drip drip drip of things falling apart.  It takes time with water damage, it is insidious.  An ethical technician should not rush into such a situation.   I had told the owner that at the moment the pinblock seemed ok but knowing water had gotten in I did not trust it.  He kept pushing.  I said if I were to take it on I would, at a minimum replace the block, action and back action,  dampers.  I wasn't gung ho enough.  He called someone else.  It got a new board and block and action parts but not  key bushings, backcheck felt, back action.  I no longer tune it.  Last time I saw it backcheck leathers were bad, underlever parts were falling apart, key bushings etc etc.   By the time the next technician had the board installed, the case had several years to stabilize if it needed it.   The new board is fantastic,  but the other guy seriously miissed the mark.  So the drip drip drip continues.  Water damage is insidious.

Gary Ford

------------------------------
Gary Ford
Boston MA
617-536-0526
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Gary wrote:
"Water damage is insidious"

Gary,

Your last line was the first line in my report to the client and insurance company.

Insidious is the word.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-01-2021 20:33
From: Gary Ford
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

I dealt with a similar situation some years ago.  The lid was down with half lid folded back.  Water poured into the action, on the pinblock and dampers.  The piano owner was a college professor out of the country for several years and I got a frantic call from the house sitters on New Years Eve.  I went right over, not knowing whose piano it was as the owner had moved since our last tuning.  The house sitter implored me to do a quick fix before the owner returned.  It took at least an hour to remove the action as the hammers were lifted way up, etc.  I spread things out to dry and returned 2 months later - things were not at all normal.  I refused to do anything until the owner was notified and included in all decisions. The sitter called someone else.  The owner eventually returned and called for a tuning.  I went to what he thought was my first visit to that home.  It took some time to convince him I had been there and what I knew.  Of course he was in disbelief that I knew what I was talking about but I pointed out peeling paint on damper heads, pulled the action out and showed other signs like peeling felts on sos tabs, etc.  He then shared his surprise that the sitters had repainted the ceiling.  Why would someone paint the ceiling?  Well, he wanted to know what the future held and I told him one day he would be playing and a note would jam (jack toe falling off, letoff felt falling off, etc.)  Next visit he said I was exactly right but would I rebuild the piano.  I didn't think it was his best choice as he was pondering moving up to an A or a B.  Several decades ago, while at North Bennet, David Betts had told me he always waited at least a year for the piano to go through the full cycle of seasonal changes before any sense of stability could return and one could get a better idea..  So we did a wait and see. the pin block initially felt fine, the occasional action parts needed repair.  After another year or so tuning pins began loosening badly  It was a constant drip drip drip of things falling apart.  It takes time with water damage, it is insidious.  An ethical technician should not rush into such a situation.   I had told the owner that at the moment the pinblock seemed ok but knowing water had gotten in I did not trust it.  He kept pushing.  I said if I were to take it on I would, at a minimum replace the block, action and back action,  dampers.  I wasn't gung ho enough.  He called someone else.  It got a new board and block and action parts but not  key bushings, backcheck felt, back action.  I no longer tune it.  Last time I saw it backcheck leathers were bad, underlever parts were falling apart, key bushings etc etc.   By the time the next technician had the board installed, the case had several years to stabilize if it needed it.   The new board is fantastic,  but the other guy seriously miissed the mark.  So the drip drip drip continues.  Water damage is insidious.

Gary Ford

------------------------------
Gary Ford
Boston MA
617-536-0526

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Attached is guidance on dealing with flood damaged/exposed pianos . A public adjuster may help in getting the best claim resolution since insurance adjusters work for the insurance company and it can take lots of time and effort to resolve the claim. While the piano may still have some life in it the client will probably never be satisfied.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

And of course the point of insurance is to put things back to the condition they WERE prior to the claim...not just "okay".  If this is impossible (as experience shows) replacement would be the solution.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2021 11:27
From: James Kelly
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Attached is guidance on dealing with flood damaged/exposed pianos . A public adjuster may help in getting the best claim resolution since insurance adjusters work for the insurance company and it can take lots of time and effort to resolve the claim. While the piano may still have some life in it the client will probably never be satisfied.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

In the "lack of insidious effects" department,  5 or 6 years ago, I had a serious fire with 120K of smoke damage in my shop. Seeing the blackened interior of the shop was a truly frightening sight. In the space that was seriously smoke damaged, close to the actual fire, along with rapidly corroding machines that had to be neutralized from the corrosive effects of the smoke, was a new WNG action I had designed for a Chickering 106. Original Vintage Chickering single offset keys, balance rail moved from Brown action position to modern position, WNG stack, except with a custom designed aluminum and wood whip rail, for the Chickering whip flange orientation. Theran keytops. Hammers had not been installed yet.

The piano case was toast. The new, but now orphaned keyboard/action, went up in the loft, where I ignored it for 4 years or so, without any special attention to how the new keyframe I had built was supported.

 3 years later, an aging customer gave me another Chickering 106, that needed a fair amount of work including an action. Took the orphaned keyboard/stack down from the loft, and went over it, to see if it was salvageable. Action centers were fine, believe it or not, all felts fine, just needed blowing off in the blasting cabinet. Cleaned up the Theran. Checked all key bushings...minor easing here and there. Rechecked all the shank friction. The friction was adjusted, but mainly because I now pin tighter than I used to 6 years ago. As they were, they in the the acceptable range, 2g,  just lower than the 4-6g which is my current target. 

Believe it or not, the action slid into the new 106 with very minor messing for the unachorda keyframe slot. 

It is now my piano, getting daily workouts. In this case, the action survived the nasty's of the fire.  Any hotter, and it would have been toast, but it survived the corrosive atmosphere of the smoke, and, in that portion of the shop, and in shelf it was sitting, did not receive overly destructive effects of the heat. 

Which goes to say. each circumstance of calamity will be different. Adequate time will reveal how bad the damage was. It is interesting though how well the WNG bushing survived the corrosive effects of the smoke, being stainless.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2021 11:44
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

And of course the point of insurance is to put things back to the condition they WERE prior to the claim...not just "okay".  If this is impossible (as experience shows) replacement would be the solution.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-02-2021 11:27
From: James Kelly
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Attached is guidance on dealing with flood damaged/exposed pianos . A public adjuster may help in getting the best claim resolution since insurance adjusters work for the insurance company and it can take lots of time and effort to resolve the claim. While the piano may still have some life in it the client will probably never be satisfied.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 12-31-2020 09:49
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Aftermath of water damage

Greetings Lists,

A burst pipe in the ceiling above a thirty year old Steinway L resulted in water entering the action cavity. An initial survey indicates that the soundboard, strings, bridges, rim, damper system and pedal lyre all appear to have dodged the bullet. However, the action cavity took on water, soaking parts of the keybed, keyframe and some of nearly every kind of main action component. The key slip is now bowed by 5 mm. Some of the string rest felt in the lower capo is wet.

The first thing I did yesterday was to move the piano out of harm's way and take the action apart so things could be spread out to dry. Planning to return today with fans (to improve air circulation), bakers' cooling racks (to better expose all sides of the keys to air), a heat gun to hasten the drying of the string rest felt, and an array of Dampp-Chaser drying rods to suspend under the piano. Upon the advice of Richard Davenport, RPT, I will put blocks under either end of the key slip and a weight in the center, in an attempt to counter-act the bowing.

My questions are:

1) What else should I be doing at this stage to help dry things out?

2) Is there any hope that the keys, keyframe and key bed can be made functional and reliable once dried out?

3) Is anything short of complete action replacement going to be reliable?

Thanks,

Alan



------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------