Pianotech

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Hi Paul, 

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Ok. So, reading some other posts, maybe you tightened the upstop/shipping rail so the keys are held down? If you remove it, do the keys and hammers return to normal?
Paul


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 6:27:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: RE: It wasn't like this before

Hi Paul, 

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Hi Gary, take the stack screws back out  ....  all the way out.  Lay them aside.  Remove the stack and then place it back in position.  Make sure all the brackets are in their place .... all the way down resting on the key frame.  If the screws in the in front of the stack are slanted they go in last.  Screw in the end screws first, the back ones.  Now screw in the two front ones on the end brackets.  All four of these screws should screw in directly up and down, perpendicular to the action frame.  Now screw in the rest of the back ones, then the fronts ones last.  Or in other words, screw in the slanted ones last if there are any.

It sure sounds like you may have gotten the stack out of whack with relationship to the frame.

Granted the upstop rail when installed improperly will cause the hammers to lift but usually only where the support posts are, not on the ends.

Let us know what you find.

Lar


------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
503-310-6965
Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:27
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Paul,

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Another possibility is that the action bracket at the treble end was not screwed in all the way, and someone turned capstans in that area to "correct" the hammer line. Then, when you took it apart and put it back together, you actually screwed those same action bracket screws all the way in (like the good Lord intended). That scenario could yield what you are looking at.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:43
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary, take the stack screws back out  ....  all the way out.  Lay them aside.  Remove the stack and then place it back in position.  Make sure all the brackets are in their place .... all the way down resting on the key frame.  If the screws in the in front of the stack are slanted they go in last.  Screw in the end screws first, the back ones.  Now screw in the two front ones on the end brackets.  All four of these screws should screw in directly up and down, perpendicular to the action frame.  Now screw in the rest of the back ones, then the fronts ones last.  Or in other words, screw in the slanted ones last if there are any.

It sure sounds like you may have gotten the stack out of whack with relationship to the frame.

Granted the upstop rail when installed improperly will cause the hammers to lift but usually only where the support posts are, not on the ends.

Let us know what you find.

Lar


------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
503-310-6965
Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:27
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Paul,

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Lots of good scenarios. Another one, which is probably not the culprit, is if the action spread increased in the treble (loose repetition rail).  My money is on Alan's scenario.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 20:55
From: Alan Eder
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Another possibility is that the action bracket at the treble end was not screwed in all the way, and someone turned capstans in that area to "correct" the hammer line. Then, when you took it apart and put it back together, you actually screwed those same action bracket screws all the way in (like the good Lord intended). That scenario could yield what you are looking at.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:43
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary, take the stack screws back out  ....  all the way out.  Lay them aside.  Remove the stack and then place it back in position.  Make sure all the brackets are in their place .... all the way down resting on the key frame.  If the screws in the in front of the stack are slanted they go in last.  Screw in the end screws first, the back ones.  Now screw in the two front ones on the end brackets.  All four of these screws should screw in directly up and down, perpendicular to the action frame.  Now screw in the rest of the back ones, then the fronts ones last.  Or in other words, screw in the slanted ones last if there are any.

It sure sounds like you may have gotten the stack out of whack with relationship to the frame.

Granted the upstop rail when installed improperly will cause the hammers to lift but usually only where the support posts are, not on the ends.

Let us know what you find.

Lar


------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
503-310-6965
Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:27
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Paul,

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

One thing to check to confirm Alan's scenario is to take a look at the capstans. Under most circumstances the capstans will all be turned up about the same height above the keys. If you can see 2 or 3 more threads on the capstans under the treble than the rest of the notes, this would validate Alan's theory, or something along those lines.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 21:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Lots of good scenarios. Another one, which is probably not the culprit, is if the action spread increased in the treble (loose repetition rail).  My money is on Alan's scenario.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 20:55
From: Alan Eder
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Another possibility is that the action bracket at the treble end was not screwed in all the way, and someone turned capstans in that area to "correct" the hammer line. Then, when you took it apart and put it back together, you actually screwed those same action bracket screws all the way in (like the good Lord intended). That scenario could yield what you are looking at.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:43
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary, take the stack screws back out  ....  all the way out.  Lay them aside.  Remove the stack and then place it back in position.  Make sure all the brackets are in their place .... all the way down resting on the key frame.  If the screws in the in front of the stack are slanted they go in last.  Screw in the end screws first, the back ones.  Now screw in the two front ones on the end brackets.  All four of these screws should screw in directly up and down, perpendicular to the action frame.  Now screw in the rest of the back ones, then the fronts ones last.  Or in other words, screw in the slanted ones last if there are any.

It sure sounds like you may have gotten the stack out of whack with relationship to the frame.

Granted the upstop rail when installed improperly will cause the hammers to lift but usually only where the support posts are, not on the ends.

Let us know what you find.

Lar


------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
503-310-6965
Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:27
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Paul,

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Alan has it right. I regulated in a rebuild shop and checking the stack screws before setting blow distance is essential. Just tightening the screws a half a turn can raise the hammers 1/2 inch.

------------------------------
Keith Roberts
owner
Hathaway Pines CA
209-770-4312
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 21:24
From: Jon Page
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Lots of good scenarios. Another one, which is probably not the culprit, is if the action spread increased in the treble (loose repetition rail).  My money is on Alan's scenario.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 20:55
From: Alan Eder
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Another possibility is that the action bracket at the treble end was not screwed in all the way, and someone turned capstans in that area to "correct" the hammer line. Then, when you took it apart and put it back together, you actually screwed those same action bracket screws all the way in (like the good Lord intended). That scenario could yield what you are looking at.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:43
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary, take the stack screws back out  ....  all the way out.  Lay them aside.  Remove the stack and then place it back in position.  Make sure all the brackets are in their place .... all the way down resting on the key frame.  If the screws in the in front of the stack are slanted they go in last.  Screw in the end screws first, the back ones.  Now screw in the two front ones on the end brackets.  All four of these screws should screw in directly up and down, perpendicular to the action frame.  Now screw in the rest of the back ones, then the fronts ones last.  Or in other words, screw in the slanted ones last if there are any.

It sure sounds like you may have gotten the stack out of whack with relationship to the frame.

Granted the upstop rail when installed improperly will cause the hammers to lift but usually only where the support posts are, not on the ends.

Let us know what you find.

Lar


------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
503-310-6965
Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:27
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Paul,

I lubricated the center pins on the jacks to alleviate some sluggishness. I removed them from the stack and replaced them in the same order.

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 18:17
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: It wasn't like this before

Hi Gary:
You removed the "action cradle". You mean the "stack"? The action brackets and everything connected to it? What exactly did you do on the jacks? Were they all under the knuckles before you started? Did you do any adjustment to the capstans in the process? If the action brackets were removed and the bracket feet are lower than before when you replaced the stack on the keyframe, the symptoms would be as you describe. We need a bit more information.
Paul McCloud
San Diego


Original Message:
Sent: 9/14/2020 5:25:00 PM
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------

Gary,
Here is something else you might check, especially if only a cat's length of hammers is affected. This is a common occurrence in our shop and easily remedied!
But seriously, my guess is that the action stack is not positioned correctly. Larry Fisher's procedure for replacing the stack frame screws is spot on. During that procedure you can also put medium pressure on the hammer rail to check that the hammers are not going to misbehave. Alan Eder and all the other contributors mention excellent overall hints. When the stack is off, it is a good idea to make sure there are not "false start" holes in those wood supports which would position the stack incorrectly to begin with.
Joel & Pris


------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-14-2020 17:25
From: Gary Howell
Subject: It wasn't like this before

While working on a grand piano, I removed the action cradle and performed work on some sticking jacks. when I put the action back onto the keybed, i noticed it was like this.....(see image), the treble hammers seemed to be sitting very high above the hammer rest and that the hammers would no longer fit under the pin block without a lot of manipulation.  I can't understand what changed. 

------------------------------
Gary Howell
Buckeye Piano Tuning
Massillon OH
------------------------------