In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message------

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message------

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message------

Many ecclesiastical instruments were tuned to the high pitch in Victorian times. It's standard for many organs and harmoniums to be near a semitone sharp, depending on temperature.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10949/1/399579.pdf  by Alastair Laurence on Broadwood Pianos is a very helpful authority on instruments of this era. 

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Not quite to the historical bent of Ed's post, but the last couple if boards I have started 88 at 55mm with Paullelo XM. This comes in at 57%bp for XM. The most recent one, a Chickering quartergrand, also had agraffes up to 88, so termination was brass up there, instead of cast iron, and profiled in the agraffe to a 0.5mm termination.  C8-G7 13.5 ga metric, which is 13 ga US.  

This is the best high treble I've done, with almost no hardener up to 88, light Bacon felt...certainly no soakings, just a drop medium strength, alcohol & B72 at each string mark. Its also got an FTDS duplex...but I've had FTDS duplexes that didn't sound as good as this...so its more than one thing going on I'm sure, this  despite the usual expectation of Boston Chickerings having lousy trebles. What's interesting is that sustain level C-8-G7 exceeds F#7-down to high treble strut. F#7 down is quite good, but not as long a sustain as that high tension XM up there, which is exceptional.  The tone also is a clear sweet very high treble, which frankly I don't think I've heard much of in my travels or in my own work. High trebles can be audible and have some level of sustain and presence, up there, but the sustain comes with a rather abrasive tonal profile. This tonal profile is sweet, with presence coming from fundamental presence.

There are several things probably going right here, but I just thought the switch at the high tension wire change was interesting.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 13:05
From: William Shull
Subject: High treble string lengths

Excellent, David!   

One pitch related related discussion is on pages 110ff.

Original Message------

Many ecclesiastical instruments were tuned to the high pitch in Victorian times. It's standard for many organs and harmoniums to be near a semitone sharp, depending on temperature.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10949/1/399579.pdf  by Alastair Laurence on Broadwood Pianos is a very helpful authority on instruments of this era. 

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

I would like to share my own experiences with the XM wire in the high treble.  The first was a 1919 Bechstein C (possibly the worst scaled piano ever made) with agraffes to note 88, where note 88 had a speaking length of 54 mm. and the other notes from there down were similarly overlong and too close for comfort for breakage).  Note 88 was 54 mm.  at gauge 14.5, I substituted XM wire at 14.5 mm and carried the XM down to note 81.  The second was a Baldwin M where 88 was at 53 mm., I increased that to 54.  Wire size 13.5 for original and 13.5 for the XM replacement.  In this piano, I used XM wire at 13.5, 14, and 14.5 down to note 73.  This piano also has the FTDS acetel copolymer duplexes. 

Whereas the 2 pianos are very different in sound, tonally I achieved similar results by using the XM wire.  Jim describes his treble as clear, sweet, and very sustaining, I also experienced something similar.  I would also characterize the sound as more open and relaxed.  When Jim describes many trebles as having an abrasive tonal quality, I think that what he is describing in  conventional wire is wire that is overstressed in relation to the breaking percentages.  The XM drops that BP% by a fair amount, and we hear the improvement that accompanies that.   When we had only one wire type, we assume that the treble has to sound a certain way.  With hybrid stringing using XM, we find that this does not have to be true.  

Also of note is how much more in keeping the high treble sounds with the registers below it, making the piano more of a piece.  

Most often we see conventional wire in the high treble.  We can choose to use that or XM wire where appropriate.  What Jim is also doing could be described as string voicing.  All string rescaling does that to some extent, here we discover that the horizons are much broader.  


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-22-2019 20:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Not quite to the historical bent of Ed's post, but the last couple if boards I have started 88 at 55mm with Paullelo XM. This comes in at 57%bp for XM. The most recent one, a Chickering quartergrand, also had agraffes up to 88, so termination was brass up there, instead of cast iron, and profiled in the agraffe to a 0.5mm termination.  C8-G7 13.5 ga metric, which is 13 ga US.

This is the best high treble I've done, with almost no hardener up to 88, light Bacon felt...certainly no soakings, just a drop medium strength, alcohol & B72 at each string mark. Its also got an FTDS duplex...but I've had FTDS duplexes that didn't sound as good as this...so its more than one thing going on I'm sure, this  despite the usual expectation of Boston Chickerings having lousy trebles. What's interesting is that sustain level C-8-G7 exceeds F#7-down to high treble strut. F#7 down is quite good, but not as long a sustain as that high tension XM up there, which is exceptional.  The tone also is a clear sweet very high treble, which frankly I don't think I've heard much of in my travels or in my own work. High trebles can be audible and have some level of sustain and presence, up there, but the sustain comes with a rather abrasive tonal profile. This tonal profile is sweet, with presence coming from fundamental presence.

There are several things probably going right here, but I just thought the switch at the high tension wire change was interesting.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 13:05
From: William Shull
Subject: High treble string lengths

Excellent, David!   

One pitch related related discussion is on pages 110ff.

Original Message------

Many ecclesiastical instruments were tuned to the high pitch in Victorian times. It's standard for many organs and harmoniums to be near a semitone sharp, depending on temperature.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10949/1/399579.pdf  by Alastair Laurence on Broadwood Pianos is a very helpful authority on instruments of this era. 

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Jim,
So by choosing XM  (note 88, 55mm Length) that brought the Bp% down from 75% to 57%. Does that mean the XM in stronger than Mapes or Roslau?
-chris

------------------------------
Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Knoxville, TN
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-22-2019 20:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Not quite to the historical bent of Ed's post, but the last couple if boards I have started 88 at 55mm with Paullelo XM. This comes in at 57%bp for XM. The most recent one, a Chickering quartergrand, also had agraffes up to 88, so termination was brass up there, instead of cast iron, and profiled in the agraffe to a 0.5mm termination.  C8-G7 13.5 ga metric, which is 13 ga US.

This is the best high treble I've done, with almost no hardener up to 88, light Bacon felt...certainly no soakings, just a drop medium strength, alcohol & B72 at each string mark. Its also got an FTDS duplex...but I've had FTDS duplexes that didn't sound as good as this...so its more than one thing going on I'm sure, this  despite the usual expectation of Boston Chickerings having lousy trebles. What's interesting is that sustain level C-8-G7 exceeds F#7-down to high treble strut. F#7 down is quite good, but not as long a sustain as that high tension XM up there, which is exceptional.  The tone also is a clear sweet very high treble, which frankly I don't think I've heard much of in my travels or in my own work. High trebles can be audible and have some level of sustain and presence, up there, but the sustain comes with a rather abrasive tonal profile. This tonal profile is sweet, with presence coming from fundamental presence.

There are several things probably going right here, but I just thought the switch at the high tension wire change was interesting.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 13:05
From: William Shull
Subject: High treble string lengths

Excellent, David!   

One pitch related related discussion is on pages 110ff.

Original Message------

Many ecclesiastical instruments were tuned to the high pitch in Victorian times. It's standard for many organs and harmoniums to be near a semitone sharp, depending on temperature.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10949/1/399579.pdf  by Alastair Laurence on Broadwood Pianos is a very helpful authority on instruments of this era. 

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

yup...that's the whole point of the XM, higher tensile strength.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-26-2019 22:56
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: High treble string lengths

Jim,
So by choosing XM  (note 88, 55mm Length) that brought the Bp% down from 75% to 57%. Does that mean the XM in stronger than Mapes or Roslau?
-chris

------------------------------
Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Knoxville, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 10-22-2019 20:51
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Not quite to the historical bent of Ed's post, but the last couple if boards I have started 88 at 55mm with Paullelo XM. This comes in at 57%bp for XM. The most recent one, a Chickering quartergrand, also had agraffes up to 88, so termination was brass up there, instead of cast iron, and profiled in the agraffe to a 0.5mm termination.  C8-G7 13.5 ga metric, which is 13 ga US.

This is the best high treble I've done, with almost no hardener up to 88, light Bacon felt...certainly no soakings, just a drop medium strength, alcohol & B72 at each string mark. Its also got an FTDS duplex...but I've had FTDS duplexes that didn't sound as good as this...so its more than one thing going on I'm sure, this  despite the usual expectation of Boston Chickerings having lousy trebles. What's interesting is that sustain level C-8-G7 exceeds F#7-down to high treble strut. F#7 down is quite good, but not as long a sustain as that high tension XM up there, which is exceptional.  The tone also is a clear sweet very high treble, which frankly I don't think I've heard much of in my travels or in my own work. High trebles can be audible and have some level of sustain and presence, up there, but the sustain comes with a rather abrasive tonal profile. This tonal profile is sweet, with presence coming from fundamental presence.

There are several things probably going right here, but I just thought the switch at the high tension wire change was interesting.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 13:05
From: William Shull
Subject: High treble string lengths

Excellent, David!   

One pitch related related discussion is on pages 110ff.

Original Message------

Many ecclesiastical instruments were tuned to the high pitch in Victorian times. It's standard for many organs and harmoniums to be near a semitone sharp, depending on temperature.

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10949/1/399579.pdf  by Alastair Laurence on Broadwood Pianos is a very helpful authority on instruments of this era. 

Best wishes

David P

--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+44 1342 850594

Original Message------

yup...that's the whole point of the XM, higher tensile strength.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

What methods are you folks using to measure to the mm, with any assurance of accuracy, up there in the high treble?

On the pdf recommendation by David I found this line on pg 12 amusing--

"The Grand Piano may be called an English instrument, it having been
invented by Americus Backers, a Dutchman, who resided in Jermyn Street
about 1776. He was a maker of Harpsichords, and on his first application
of hammers, to gain the jingling music of the Harpsichord, then so much
admired, he did not clothe them, but struck the strings with soft wood
or cork; he afterwards clothed them slightly with leather."

------------------------------
Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Knoxville, TN
865-986-7720
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

I shape the capo to a pretty sharp v with a 0.5mm land. This gives you a clear measuring point for the termination, when viewed from above with a mirror.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:36
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: High treble string lengths

What methods are you folks using to measure to the mm, with any assurance of accuracy, up there in the high treble?

On the pdf recommendation by David I found this line on pg 12 amusing--

"The Grand Piano may be called an English instrument, it having been
invented by Americus Backers, a Dutchman, who resided in Jermyn Street
about 1776. He was a maker of Harpsichords, and on his first application
of hammers, to gain the jingling music of the Harpsichord, then so much
admired, he did not clothe them, but struck the strings with soft wood
or cork; he afterwards clothed them slightly with leather."

------------------------------
Troubles are Bubbles, and they just float away.
chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Knoxville, TN
865-986-7720

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Will, I'm not Ed, but for me I want thinner gauges, and higher tensions, when possible, accomplished by combos of higher tensile strength wire and increasing lengths. Also increasing back scale if I can.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Thanks, Jim.  I have had the thought that, in the high treble, when you increase the speaking length, often you will be moving the pins more toward the center of the bridge.  If one shortens the distance between the front and rear pins (as I know you do), then you will also gain more back scale.  

I have been thinking about doing what you describe on our chapter project Steinert, along with the bridge design you heard.

In the high treble, would you be going down to 12.5 gauge or even 12.0 for at least a few notes?

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 15:05
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, I'm not Ed, but for me I want thinner gauges, and higher tensions, when possible, accomplished by combos of higher tensile strength wire and increasing lengths. Also increasing back scale if I can.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

In the Chickering 122, I was at 13.5 metric at 88

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 17:03
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Thanks, Jim.  I have had the thought that, in the high treble, when you increase the speaking length, often you will be moving the pins more toward the center of the bridge.  If one shortens the distance between the front and rear pins (as I know you do), then you will also gain more back scale.

I have been thinking about doing what you describe on our chapter project Steinert, along with the bridge design you heard.

In the high treble, would you be going down to 12.5 gauge or even 12.0 for at least a few notes?

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 15:05
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, I'm not Ed, but for me I want thinner gauges, and higher tensions, when possible, accomplished by combos of higher tensile strength wire and increasing lengths. Also increasing back scale if I can.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Will, Every time I have experimented with heavier wire than normal in the top treble I have disliked it and found tone improved by changing to lighter wire. I have had it suggested to me by a couple of techs who seem significantly experienced in the subject that heavier wire is better, and so under their influence I tried it against my better instincts and regretted the result.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 18:32
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

In the Chickering 122, I was at 13.5 metric at 88

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 17:03
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Thanks, Jim.  I have had the thought that, in the high treble, when you increase the speaking length, often you will be moving the pins more toward the center of the bridge.  If one shortens the distance between the front and rear pins (as I know you do), then you will also gain more back scale.

I have been thinking about doing what you describe on our chapter project Steinert, along with the bridge design you heard.

In the high treble, would you be going down to 12.5 gauge or even 12.0 for at least a few notes?

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 15:05
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, I'm not Ed, but for me I want thinner gauges, and higher tensions, when possible, accomplished by combos of higher tensile strength wire and increasing lengths. Also increasing back scale if I can.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Thanks, Ed.  However, my interests lie in exploring the potential uses of XM wire in the upper treble as appropriate.  So far, that has included substitution of XM for standard wire at the same gauge.  The higher breaking point allows us to lengthen the speaking length and still stay within safe parameters and have good tone.  That is a plus that can gain sustain and volume in areas that would most benefit from that. I have reduced wire diameters in small pianos in the low tenor to good success, The open question for me is if further gain is possible in reducing wire diameters somewhat in the high treble.  Hence my asking what others experience has been.

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 23:07
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, Every time I have experimented with heavier wire than normal in the top treble I have disliked it and found tone improved by changing to lighter wire. I have had it suggested to me by a couple of techs who seem significantly experienced in the subject that heavier wire is better, and so under their influence I tried it against my better instincts and regretted the result.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 18:32
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

In the Chickering 122, I was at 13.5 metric at 88

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 17:03
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Thanks, Jim.  I have had the thought that, in the high treble, when you increase the speaking length, often you will be moving the pins more toward the center of the bridge.  If one shortens the distance between the front and rear pins (as I know you do), then you will also gain more back scale.

I have been thinking about doing what you describe on our chapter project Steinert, along with the bridge design you heard.

In the high treble, would you be going down to 12.5 gauge or even 12.0 for at least a few notes?

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 15:05
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, I'm not Ed, but for me I want thinner gauges, and higher tensions, when possible, accomplished by combos of higher tensile strength wire and increasing lengths. Also increasing back scale if I can.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Will,

my comment on increasing back scale was along the lines Chickering had in mind on the 122, which is a nicely designed and very graceful plate. The back scale to SL ratio at 88 is petty darn close to 1:1, which is huge compared to other makes. So I wasn't necessarily referring to tiny changes. Down at 69 I'd love to get more serious back scale, but, obviously, that's not really going to happen without designing a plate with that in mind from the get go. How much you can gain, depends on how they laid out the contours of the plate in the back scale.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-25-2019 07:28
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Thanks, Ed.  However, my interests lie in exploring the potential uses of XM wire in the upper treble as appropriate.  So far, that has included substitution of XM for standard wire at the same gauge.  The higher breaking point allows us to lengthen the speaking length and still stay within safe parameters and have good tone.  That is a plus that can gain sustain and volume in areas that would most benefit from that. I have reduced wire diameters in small pianos in the low tenor to good success, The open question for me is if further gain is possible in reducing wire diameters somewhat in the high treble.  Hence my asking what others experience has been.

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 23:07
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, Every time I have experimented with heavier wire than normal in the top treble I have disliked it and found tone improved by changing to lighter wire. I have had it suggested to me by a couple of techs who seem significantly experienced in the subject that heavier wire is better, and so under their influence I tried it against my better instincts and regretted the result.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 18:32
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

In the Chickering 122, I was at 13.5 metric at 88

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 17:03
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Thanks, Jim.  I have had the thought that, in the high treble, when you increase the speaking length, often you will be moving the pins more toward the center of the bridge.  If one shortens the distance between the front and rear pins (as I know you do), then you will also gain more back scale.

I have been thinking about doing what you describe on our chapter project Steinert, along with the bridge design you heard.

In the high treble, would you be going down to 12.5 gauge or even 12.0 for at least a few notes?

Will


------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 15:05
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: High treble string lengths

Will, I'm not Ed, but for me I want thinner gauges, and higher tensions, when possible, accomplished by combos of higher tensile strength wire and increasing lengths. Also increasing back scale if I can.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 10-24-2019 09:27
From: William Truitt
Subject: High treble string lengths

Ed, you say "being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best".  Are you reducing wire diameters; if so to what?

------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277

Original Message:
Sent: 10-17-2019 10:26
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: High treble string lengths

In Steinway pianos I notice that the high treble lengths got longer over time as they introduced newer scales. They seemingly went back and lengthened older scales at the top. I wonder if they used to tune to a higher pitch in the 1860-1880's.

When I make a new board or even just recap the bridge, I set 88 at least to 51mm and then measure the longest length that will fit at the bottom of the top section and find by trial and error the semitone multiplier that will get me from 51mm to that length at the bottom. Then I layout the new lengths on the centerlines of the unisons. I use masking tape on the top of the un-notched bridge and treat it like a drafting table. Then use the bridge punches to finalize the pin locations.

Lately I have been setting 88 to 54mm.

I have experimented with how thick to string up there and have come to the conclusion that being on the thinner end of the wiring patterns is best.

It also helps my process that I shape my V-bars to a true V-bar shape, so locating the termination point on the plate is more well defined.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------