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Entire front rail lifted in grand

  • 1.  Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 16:19
    Hello all,

    I am servicing a Yamaha G5 with a QRS system installed (not by me) and I was going to do a thorough keyframe bedding and key levelling job. However, even after I lift up all of the bedding screws, the front rail is lifted up off of the keybed, preventing me from bedding the balance tail. I haven't encountered this before. Any ideas as to what is going on or how to fix it?

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 16:40
    I've never installed a QRS and so don't know if there's a function that can directly affect the way the keyframe sits, but wondering:
    - did you try fitting just the frame?
    - any chance that the shift lever is too high?
    - any obvious warping of keybed (front to back / side to side) or keyframe?
    - did you turn up the hidden glide?
    - how much elevation is there?  Consistent across entire front rail?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 17:28
      |   view attached
    Thanks for your response, David. I had tried out most of your ideas, but having taken a straightedge to everything it seems like there is a high point in the keybed an inch or two back from the front rail and not adequate "lift" from the balance rail. I'm going to try to attach a picture. If this is the case, should I go ahead and sand and/or plane the keybed in its high spots?

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 17:42
    When a QRS unit is installed the key frame can be butchered substantially, ruining any original relationship to the keyframe. Can take some creativity to make it work. I would say the installer didn't finish the job.





  • 5.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 17:47
    That could be. Based on some other things about the work they did on this piano I don't have a lot of trust in the quality of their work.

    Do you mean that the keybed can be butchered or the keyframe?

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 18:07
    Yep typo. Keyframe gets hacked up, ruining relationship to keybed.
    Good luck.





  • 7.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 20:06
    I have a similar problem with a Yamaha baby grand (can't remember model) except it doesn't have a QRS system installed. I'm referring it to a more experienced technician. In the meantime, I'm going to follow this thread in case it puts a lightbulb over my head. Thanks.

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    Maggie Jusiel
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 20:14
    Keybed warped?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 20:27
    Actually Peter, the photo you provided doesn't really support your narrative.  To begin, you would want to examine keybed (and frame) with straight edges that were long enough to span the entire confection. In the case of the keybed, from back rail to front and from bass end to treble.  For the key frame it's mostly a matter of front rail to back.  If you're photo had placed a straight edge from back to front, and a high spot had been evident back from the front edge, leaving a visible gap, then that would have been consistent.  Then you would have had the option of either planing the front rail of the keybed or shimming the underside of the keyframe front rail. Maybe you could take a few more photos?

    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 21:09
    I suspect that when they notched the back rail for the solenoids, they removed the 'foot' on the back rail.  You might install a riser back there to compensate since it seems to be rocking on the balance rail section of the keyframe. A riser on the front rail might be needed also. I recently had to do this on a Beckstein, they must have been omitted during production.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 22:02
    Hi David,

    Yes, I was using a long straightedge, and I did use it against all of those axes on the keybed and keyframe. I only got out the 6" ruler because it made it easier to see the gap in the photo.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-21-2019 23:11
    Peter -
    I see now where I was misinterpreting the original photo.  So, are you saying that, with the full length straight edge, the keybed is level up until the front section, which is angled down?  what is the angle? Is there any indication of trauma that would have displaced this part of the keybed? Is it consistent from one side to the other? Did you take newspaper or feeler stock to see if the front rail is contacting at the back edge of the front part, where the incline begins?
    Another approach would be to speak with client to see what they might know, or with individual who did the QRS installation.  Or you could also take good photos and excellent measurements and run it by Yamaha tech support, presuming, I suppose that this is not a grey market piano.


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 01-22-2019 06:52
    The gap in that area is acceptable. The keyframe is to touch along the front rail, glides and rear edge of the back rail. The hollowed area back front the front rail insures that the keyframe behind the f/r doesn't touch/knock.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 30 days ago
    Jon -
    I'm starting to think you skip over my comments, but then, so do I.  I think you might be misreading the photo the same way I (think I) was. You would be (and I would have been) right if the front 5 or 6 inches of the keybed are, in fact, in level with the back rail, i.e. theoretically parallel with the floor. However, if that section is actually tilted down from the level line, then that would explain the gap between key bed and front of key frame.  If that is the case (for whatever reason), I'm guessing that adding material (to bed or frame) would be one approach. But, as I asked Peter, If the front rail is actually bedded, albeit further in from the front than standard, and there's no knock, would it work to leave it?


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 28 days ago
    Sorry, I should have taken more pictures. The front of the front rail is not bedded. When the keyframe is in the action cavity without the cheekblocks and the glide bolts are turned all the way up, there is a gap of about 1mm from the keybed to the front rail in the centre of the piano, and a 2-3mm gap at the extreme bass and treble ends. It does knock, and it does create a spongy feel. Pushing in newspaper or feeler stock to see whether it was consistently bedded further back along the front rail would have been a good idea, and I can try that out next time I see the piano (it is 1/2 hour out of town).

    What I ended up doing was lowering the cheekblock screws until the front rail was equally raised from the bass to the treble and then doing a rough key leveling job. However, I would like to get to the bottom of this and do a proper repair eventually.

    Jon, you mentioned that the "feet" might have been cut off in the keyframe. What exactly do you mean? I just took a look at the bottom of the keyframe of another Yamaha grand and I didn't see any feet.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 28 days ago
    I'm suspecting that if the back rail was cut the thicker portion was removed and no accommodation made. I would suggest removing the top action and keys and seeing how the key frame sits. Take some veneer material and see how much you need to shim up the back rail. Five inch long areas should do.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 28 days ago
    It appears that the key bed and frame has warped. Sanding and maybe installing risers on the front and maybe back rails will minimize bedding endeavors.
    This job is best performed in the shop but can be done in the field.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 28 days ago
    Something to bear in mind if contemplating a riser on the back rail. It will elevate the HCH and affect Let Off and strike angle as well as adding lost motion to the solenoids. A hardwood front rail riser might be the better option with sanding down the curvature of the key bed. Front rail key pin height might need to be addressed.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 28 days ago
    Peter, I'd try to pin down the root cause of the problem (warpage, loss of backrail foot, etc.), and correct that cause first -- if possible.  Only after I'd exhausted that route would I consider other fixes.  The Yamaha G5 is a fine, stable instrument.  The problem you are seeing was almost certainly introduced by a faulty player installation, or extreme environment.

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    John Rhodes
    Vancouver WA
    360-721-0728
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 27 days ago
    Thanks for the advice, everyone. John Rhodes also pointed out to me that there are installation manuals freely available online, so I will be sure to look at the installation manual when I am there next. I believe that the keyframe was cut out into the back rail cloth, which is more than the manual indicates. And I will check out the area by the action brackets to make sure that there was sufficient material left there by the feet. I am also thinking that if I remove all the keys again I should be able to take some newspaper to figure out exactly where the keyframe is balancing on the keybed.

    The QRS system was installed by the store that sold the client her piano, so hopefully I can bill the store for my time. I'll let you all know what I find out. In the meantime, if anyone else has any bright ideas, I'm all ears!

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 27 days ago
    Peter said:
    The QRS system was installed by the store that sold the client her piano, so hopefully I can bill the store for my time. I'll let you all know what I find out. In the meantime, if anyone else has any bright ideas, I'm all ears!

    Hi Peter - I do!  Why don't you contact the store FIRST? Then you might possibly glean some useful information, not the least of which would be how they might deal with an invoice from you.


    ------------------------------
    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 27 days ago
    If the piano is under warranty, have the store correct it or agree to pay you to do it. Otherwise, have the customer pay you and then they seek reimbursement from the dealer. Do not expect unauthorized repairs to be met without challenge, they might even void the warranty.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Entire front rail lifted in grand

    Posted 27 days ago
    Thanks for the advice. I have contacted the dealer and am waiting to hear back from them. As of now I am still in the diagnosis stage, so no unauthorized repairs have happened.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianos.com
    ------------------------------