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Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

  • 1.  Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Posted 12-17-2019 18:33
    A friend in California is having problems with a four-year-old Baldwin grand, model 165. It appears that action centers are beginning to seize, causing irregular repetition, which was not a problem until recently. She is a music teacher and the piano receives regular but not extreme use.
    Have others experienced this in Chinese-built Baldwin grands? The grands are made in a different factory than the verticals.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 2.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Member
    Posted 12-17-2019 23:53
    I think more information is needed such as the meaning of irregular repetition. Seizing center pins as in the type found in certain YC pianos is a nightmare. I have been dealing with issues in a Baldwin Artist Grand that I attribute to the cheap  felt in the action centers. In particular the rep lever bushings have low gram gauge readings and the jack bushings have high gram gauge readings. Kept getting "cheating jacks" with the jacks not returning. Even after some repinning and reaming the problem returned on three or four particular notes. I swapped the whippens out from the last 4 notes and everything worked fine. Someone probably needs to do some experimenting or at least examine center pins and bushings under magnification. I have not seen any Baldwins made in China but I have seen a number of Young Changs with the seizure issue. Any idea if this piano is under a warranty ?

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Posted 12-18-2019 00:06
    I'm asking for general experience with recent Chinese-built Baldwin grand pianos, not US-made Baldwins.
    The piano is on the other side of the country from me. I'm not servicing it, nor have I seen it in person.
    I'm just asking if others have seen problems with action centers slowing down or seizing after a few years use.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 4.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2019 00:24
    Samick actions are particularly prone to coming down with "Mystery" sluggishness after a few years of playing. The centers start seizing up after it is played for a while. Let the piano sit un-played for a couple of days and the problem will rescind. Eventually they stick all the time. I have not found any remedy short of repinning the action centers permanent. I have had some Renner actions with this problem as well.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 5.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-19-2019 12:46
    I have also experienced this issue on a 2015 Baldwin 190, still under warranty, purchased in 2017 by the client.  The client is a teacher and the notes which exhibited the "cheating jack" problem were C4 and D4.  I found that D4 jack was cracked and asked the store for a replacement jack.  The store had on hand a whippen that was not the same style as the existing whippen.  I was able to disassemble and use the jack which was close to the correct dimensions with the exception that it was too fat to fit in the existing part.  A little trimming of parts allowed enough clearance for the jack to be able to move freely in the whippen prior to pinning. I swapped C4 whippen with another note and regulated both C4 and D4 notes.  The D4 whippen went back into the original D4 location. The client was super happy for about 15 days and then D4 started failing again.  I went back and moved D4 to another note and haven't gotten a call back yet, but I expect there will be more failures. The store has changed hands, but the new owner is responsive to getting the correct parts needed for replacements.

    If there is a solution other than moving parts around, I would be forever grateful to learn about it.


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    Brenda Meng
    San Jose CA
    408-828-9831
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  • 6.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-18-2019 01:06
    I have had to do a lot of re-sizing of bushings of all sorts in other Chinese pianos, like Hailun:  key and flange bushings, damper guide rails, etc.  On the upside, once adjusted, none have seized up again; the pianos have given good service and sound nice, after a bit of voicing. 

    I'd do all the parts once one or two start sticking, not one-at-a-time.  

    Best,
    Linda Scott, RPT





  • 7.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Posted 12-19-2019 13:05
    I'd be inclined to repin everything. I'm guessing the hammer flange and rep lever are 1~3 g friction and the jack is 5~7 g friction. It should be the other way around. Repin the wippen flange while you're at it.  I was chasing bad repetition and cheating jacks on a player grand and didn't succeed until I bit the bullet and repinned...everything; except the back action.  Insufficient rep string tension is a result of loose pinning which causes poor repetition and cheating jacks.  It's a vicious circle.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 8.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-19-2019 16:31
    A few years back, I had a Samick with the problem, and the Samick rep told me they would pay me to do the following: apply a 50/50 mix of water/alcohol, follow with a heat gun to dry. I expressed my skepticism, opining that a repin was in order based on my experience with the symptoms, but he was not buying it. So I did as he suggested, and amazingly enough that actually solved the problem (no further issues for the 5-10 years I followed the instrument).

    OTOH, I did the same with an instrument out of warrantee, and it continued to have occasional frozen centers popping up. In general, I unpin, ream to go up a full size, lubricate with Protek CLP, repin, and have never had a recall on the parts I do that on (I make sure to make a record of which notes). I have bid a complete repin job several times, but the customers have all preferred the piecemeal approach - deal with it at the next tuning. 

    I haven't serviced any Chinese Baldwin grands. Have serviced a couple upright Chinese Baldwins with no issues.

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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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  • 9.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-19-2019 20:51

    On Dec 19, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Jon Page via Piano Technicians Guild <Mail@ConnectedCommunity.org> wrote:
    I'm guessing the hammer flange and rep lever are 1~3 g friction and the jack is 5~7 g friction. It should be the other way around.

    The way I've always understood repetition (especially deep in the key) is that the jack and the knuckle are in a race to see who gets home first. For repetition, it need to be the jack. So I pin the jack loose and the rep. With the lever tighter (and friction, higher), the rep spring needs to be stronger. Strengthen the string, and if the rep spring is the butterfly type, the jack side of that spring will also be tighter. Win-win.

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    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Posted 12-20-2019 08:35
    The Chinese Baldwin I tried servicing this week had a bass bridge that had become unglued and could be moved by hand. Sounds like they tend to be a bit unpredictable...

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    Hannah Beckett
    Reston VA
    910-231-3595
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  • 11.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Posted 12-20-2019 09:11
    <...unpredictable...

    actually utterly predictable may be the more accurate description

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 12.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Posted 12-20-2019 09:15
    Speaking of which, I have a new client coming up with a 1996 Baldwin C. 1996 Baldwin was still in the US, was it not?  (well into their terminal decline, but a US inspired decline?)

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 13.  RE: Chinese Baldwin Grand, Action Problems.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-20-2019 10:19
    I actually know a story about Baldwin in 1995-1996 that illuminates the question about when Baldwin became Chinese.

    In 1995, they built a giant new arts complex in Mexico City, where I'd lived for 20 years.  The music school needed 20 seven foot grands for the teaching studios, and there was a bidding process.  I'd always thought the Baldwin SF (7') was an amazing piano, except for the actions getting noisy.  So I connected with Priscilla Rappaport, who offered to build actions for 20 Baldwin SF's (she'd done consulting work for Baldwin previously), at a very favorable cost.  We didn't hear back and didn't hear back, until she finally connected with the president of the company by phone.  

     His reason for not going for the proposal:  "...well, what if people like them?"  (!!!)  yep, that was a problem, for them.

     So Mexico bought Steinways: at the time, the largest single sale in Steinway's history.  And Baldwin...well, you know what happened.

    The Steinways came, and all the actions seized up....but that's a story for another day...

    ....and that, friends, is a cautionary tale about American industry.

    Best holiday wishes,
    Linda Scott