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Pretty major impact damage...help!

  • 1.  Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2019 18:14




    Hi all

    Long time lurker, first time poster...many many thanks for your riveting contributions over the years, I learn so much from this forum.

    As you can see, I'm in Ireland, and I don't get to see many Steinways where I roam, NY or Hamburg. New client today has just had a 1920s "O" shipped from New England to Co. Clare, and opened the lid last week to find practically every hammer north of F4 almost hitting the strings. Turns out the "pianos specialist" moving company she used must have let if take a tumble in the container as it had a big impact. 

    The minor-ish stuff - 10 split keys, feet of action stack a little bent up, action frame has some impacted wood under feet, and long split along the treble edge of frame, some wippens broken, about 12 shanks busted. This stuff is either repairable or replaceable, should be fairly straight-forward. 

    The major stuff - key bed is badly out of shape, as detailed in photos.

    I'm not an experienced rebuilder, but I'm wondering how to shape this quote for her insurance claim. It would be a good opportunity for a full rebuild, naturally, but I think getting the repairs above roughly costed and arranged would be considered very separate and a little less refined in skill than a rebuild. Plus they don't really have the money for that stuff. 

    Your thoughts would be so very helpful.
    TIA
    Michael


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    Michael Laffan
    Co Limerick
    353-877127110
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  • 2.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-26-2019 19:25
    I'd say this looks like full rebuild...but frankly it looks worse than that. The keybed frame is destroyed, and its connection to the case compromised...at least that's what I think I see. This is structural destruction.  Because of the structural destruction, I might not get involved even as a total rebuild. Remedial case work is one thing, structural destruction, and its repair is another. And, this is only what you can see right now. If this level of failure is evident without taking the thing apart in the shop, my experience says, there's more that you don't see. As they say in car land, I'd say they "totaled" this sucker. What that means, I'm not sure...write up the cost of replacement in kind, meaning a new S&S?

    ps...did we sit at the same table at the last night banquet in Tucson?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 3.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2019 03:47
    Yes Jim, we did sit together at the Tucson banquet!

    Thanks for all your replies on this. I didn't think about potential cracks under the plate/pinblock or other parts of the plate.

    I should have said that unfortunately they only insured it for EUR5k!! So I'm going to have a look around at rebuilders here in Europe, and see what they say. I'm guessing a very very very very rough estimate for full rebuild, without finishing, when there is the potential of major structural repair like you said should be between USD25k and 30k? 


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    Michael Laffan
    Co Limerick
    353-877127110
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-27-2019 09:10
    Ahh, yes, I thought so...about the banquet

    Here's where this gets tricky to price. You said without the refinishing, but removing the keybed and putting another in or repairing the keybed means mucking up the finish, because you are separating the keybed from the case.  Really, I would not personally consider something like this for anything under 55kusd.  I would assume full rebuild, including unseen destruction in the belly, of 35-40, then leave myself plenty of room to repair of the frame in the 55k department.  If there were plate cracking, in addition to this, which I think you should look for, I'd just trash it. 

    Assuming one could get away with less on jobs like this, has always landed me with a non-paying albatrosse around my neck. You say "they" only insured for 5Keuro.  The mover's liability insurance has to be much greater than this. Have they explored that route...unless it was a non-professional mover.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2019 20:30
    Hi Michael,

    Good to have you join in the conversation! I agree with Jim. Even if I was a full-scale rebuilder, I wouldn't handle that type of problem. Too many ifs and way too much hassle, especially because it's structural damage. I would just tell the insurance company that they need to replace it with the most equivalent piano on the market today - a Steinway M. I think you'll have to fill out this form: https://www.steinway.com/pianos/pricing 

    Best of luck,

    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-26-2019 21:33
    Ben, for a start, Steinway makes O model pianos in New York and in Hamburg.

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 7.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-26-2019 22:15

    Haha, you're right - I was thinking of the L. Unless they have started re-manufacturing those recently, which I have not heard of. Thanks for the correction. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (805) 315-8050
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Member
    Posted 11-26-2019 22:48
    It needs to be retired from service . Obvious structural damage to the key frame, key bed and parts unknown. It possible the soundboard, pin block and plate took Ha hit with visible and invisible cracks. Owner needs to file a claim that will get them whole again Hopefully they had insurance taken out to cover
    Glenn Goulds Steinway was dropped and even though it was rebuilt at Steinway against their advice it was never the same. There is likely to be lots of fingerpointing and denial of who did what , when and where by whom.

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-26-2019 22:58
    Look to see if there are plate screws that have pulled out slightly around the pin block area and elsewhere. If there are no cracks visible now, they might present themselves later.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@pianocapecod.com
    http://www.pianocapecod.com


  • 10.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-27-2019 06:52
    Hi Michael. Where in County Clare are you? Wish I knew of you when I was visiting there......

    Keybed replacement is not real difficult with some basic woodworking tools. I replaced one some years ago on an old Knabe grand. See pictures - sorry for poor quality - these were taken on one of the first digital cameras available. Action stack frame could be replaced by either buying a WNG frame, or contacting them and try to find an O where the frame was replaced by a WNG - maybe the original is available. I'll have an AIII frame available - probably not a good fit though.....

    Just throwing these thoughts out there...

    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-27-2019 07:58
    Bearing in mind the disparity of insurance cover with the value of the instrument or amount of work appropriate to be done and possibly to no avail, I'd be tempted to look at other brands. Certainly in the UK, Steinway have high value because of the Marque. But other brands can be really beautiful and are really under valued. In my opinion Bechsteins have significant qualities and are often available in good condition even within the budget of the insured sum. The 1900-1910 vintage of Broadwood baby grands is superb and these instruments really are underappreciated.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOdhthgsxs  is just such an instrument. This particular instrument needed hammer pins replacing and we inserted springs in the action to lighten it. But before the hammer pins were replaced a local piano dealer who saw it told me it wasn't worth more than £300. The reality is that it's a gem, as demonstrated by the recording. Steinways are not the only good instruments around.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 12.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 11-27-2019 08:47
    The point of paying insurance is to return the unfortunate situation to a desirable quality of life with least distress possible.
    If we are working for the insurance company or moving company, we seek the cheapest solution that can pass a minimum standard, or less. Many of us have seen examples of this kind of work.
    If we are the piano owner's agent, we seek to define the best replacement for the loss.
    It's the insurance company's responsibility and/or the moving company's responsibility to discern replacement costs before establishing the rate for coverage.
    If the insurance company or moving company did not state a limit, it seems fair in this case to demand full replacement costs, delivery included.
    A lawyer's services may be needed before long.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Member
    Posted 11-27-2019 09:04
    It is sometimes possible to work with a public insurance adjuster since they know the best way to move the claims. This is probably a fairly involved claim and the amount of insurance will most likely limit the payout. Ed is right that a lawyer may be needed or at least should be consulted. The client should not sign any offers or releases from the insurance company until they have had time to make a case and do their homework. Establishing the exact responsibility is going to be a difficult task since the piano had to have passed through lots of hands to get from the US to Ireland. I hope the client can get a fair settlement .

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-27-2019 09:46
    I have removed a Steinway keybed.  They're tongue and groove (Spruce I think) with a "collector" on each end basically speaking and glued to the rim.  As I recall, the panels are not glued together. 

    From the looks of things, point of impact was somewhere in the neighborhood of the locking piece of wood that pivots to hold the leg in the lock plates.  In short, it was on it's side and fell over. 

    Putting repairs aside for the moment, time is needed to assess any additional effects of the impact.  A complete tear down and inspection would accomplish this or a person could set this piano off in a corner and wait a few years.  The latter not being practical, an accurate bid can't be submitted until the piano is totally taken apart.  Long story short, it's cheaper to replace it.

    Submitting a bid would have to include all the verbal and legal traffic that would no doubt come to be eventually. 

    If it were me, I'd bail  .......  turn tail and run.  There's easier money to be made.  I don't need to expose myself to time sucking legal traffic and customer discontent to make a living. 

    If I had the chance to do the repairs without the encumbrance of the unknown, I'd bend the action support back, repair the keybed and keyframe, get the action parts working right again and put it in my living room  .......  OR contact the owner and offer repairs without guarantees.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    503-310-6965
    Working the gravy zone for the rest of my days.
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2019 17:34
    Well, updates...

    I bottled up my courage and relayed all of your sage advice to my client. She took it well, considering! I didn't know this, but she had had an appraisal done before the move from hell, which stated value of instrument was $10k. She is insured for $5k, and could argue with an attorney that she should get the $10k, but feels the attorney fees might well eat up all that extra $5k, so as of today she is looking at taking the $5k, and asking me to make the repairs as suggested by Larry (and hinted at by Terry) above, and take a chance on it, with no guarantees. She fully understands that there might be more damage, but feels she's happy to take the chance that these will suffice to give her some semblance of her old instrument back as she's attached to it. I suspect I should put a fairly strict contract in writing with her??

    Seems like a really good opportunity to learn some skills, without pulling a plate. I'm very tempted, so I'll mull it over for the next few days! 


    ------------------------------
    Michael Laffan
    Co Limerick
    353-877127110
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-28-2019 17:38
    Me too Terry - would have been great to say hello - I'm actually in Limerick, but nothing is too far away from anywhere in Ireland! Great idea, I'm considering this strongly as the client is strongly thinking of throwing caution to the window and getting only the visible repairs done, not a full rebuild, seems like a perfect project for me to get my teeth cut a little!

    ------------------------------
    Michael Laffan
    Co Limerick
    353-877127110
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Pretty major impact damage...help!

    Posted 12-02-2019 05:27
    Looking at  http://www.pianoauctions.co.uk/catalogue.php  there are some very nice instruments going for not a lot and within the contemplation of the insured value.

    Certainly in the UK looking at that catalogue run-of-the-mill good pianos are underappreciated.

    The damaged instrument if patched up would be an excellent subject for trainee tuners to acquire tuning and pin-setting skills.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594