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Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

  • 1.  Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2019 10:15
    Greetings learned colleagues.
     I find myself yet again dealing with rather severe key lead corrosion in a Kluge keyset. Here in ultra-humid S.Florida I see this problem fairly often. While I do see it in older pianos particularly those exposed to beach environments I find some of the worst cases are relatively new <30yrs Kluge keys in climate controlled spaces. When transporting the latest action to my shop I noticed a strong smell of acetic acid in the car. Strong enough that I had to open the windows a couple of times on the ride to the shop. In other threads on this topic I've seen the natural presence of acetic acid in all wood mentioned as a cause of corrosion. The smell associated with this keyset seems too strong to simply be from the spruce alone. In trying to chase down possible sources for the smell I came across a lot of references to acetylation of wood being used in industrial settings to stabilize wood and reduce it's dimensional variation due to humidity.
     I am now left with two questions. Does Kluge use acetylation to stabilize the spruce keys? And more importantly; How can I prevent the replacement leads from corrosion? I am contemplating sealing the keys with shelac to keep the acetic acid vapors inside the wood but am hesitant because I've never seen a set of keys with visible finish or sealer aside from on the key buttons. I'm also considering sealing the leads with rustoleum rust reformer prior to installation. I'd very much like to hear others thoughts on this Below I'll try and include a couple of links to interesting articles on acetylation.

    https://wfs.swst.org/index.php/wfs/article/viewFile/1584/1584

    https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/dspace/bitstream/1957/1651/1/FPL_1593ocr.pdf



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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 2.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Posted 06-01-2019 10:45
    I think acetylation would be fairly radical for a piano parts supplier to attempt. It makes glueing somewhat challenging, though it does stabilize amazingly. I have some Accoya (radiata pine acetylated) sample crosscuts from a door sill I made years ago that is rock solid in retaining dimensional stability...pretty amazing, but still I highly doubt they are acetylating around metals and glues in a piano. Any corrosion on the keypins?

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 3.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2019 11:07
    I have long thought that the industry should switch to soft copper for keyweighting. Of course it is not as dense as lead, but if you pay attention to hammer weight like a true professional manufacturer or technician should; I think you would find it dense enough and cupric oxide is not toxic, lead oxide is.

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 4.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2019 12:17
    No, Mr. Ialeggio, there is no key pin, string or other metal corrosion evident in any of the instruments I've seen with this problem. Do you know of any other process that might be responsible for raised acetic acid content in spruce?

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 5.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Posted 06-01-2019 21:19
    nope on ideas regarding acid content in spruce. You might give Bob Marinelli a call, as they import kluge blanks and keysets. He may have contacts that would know what treatment these blanks go through.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 6.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-01-2019 22:16
    Karl

    As you know, we encounter a lot of lead corrosion here in Hawaii. I can't say for sure if the keys are from Kluge, but I have never smelled anything when taking an action back to my shop.  

    I wonder if the smell is coming from the wood, or from something else.  When you drilled out the leads, did you notice a string smell?

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 7.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2019 14:51
    Mr. Blees,

    I didn't drill the leads out. I used a set of Dead-leader pliers from Acousticraft. With the corroded leads this was challenging as they were far less inclined to slide out of the holes. For a goodly number of them I ended up using a slide clamp to squeeze the handles when two hands weren't able to generate the pressure needed. This particular set of keys is from 1993 and had lead in all 88 keys. All of the lead was compromised to some degree. Without the lead I can still smell the acetic acid even in my well ventilated shop.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 8.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-02-2019 17:43
    I use an appropriately sized rod in my drill press  (turned off) to force the leads out. Have always had enough leverage. It can be messy if the leads are disintegrating.
    Btw, insects can leave behind strong odors. Carpenter ants for one, but it's an acrid smell, not vinegary.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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  • 9.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-05-2019 03:57
    Ants have formic acid, this is the sweet and tart flavor of chocolate coated ants (popular in some countries).

    I thought that the subject of acetate and lead corrosion was already well discussed.  There is a ship-builders site that documents the lead corrosion that results from wood and humidity, especially in enclosed spaces:

    https://www.thenrg.org/resources/articles/Lead%20corrosion%20in%20ship%20models.pdf

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    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
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  • 10.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Member
    Posted 06-10-2019 00:54
    The link posted by Blaine on corrosion of lead in ship models is worth careful reading. I think it can answer many of the questions regarding lead corrosion and acetic acid . I saw various things in the article that stood out such as all wood contains acetic acid some more than others; kiln drying effects; storage and environmental factors;  composition of the lead etc. It sounds as if nothing needs to have been done to the wood to cause the problem ( such as sealing it, varnish ) . I have not seen the issue in South Carolina but have run across cases of expanding lead in keys mostly on pianos that are old and neglected and in places that lacked air conditioning and humidity control

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 11.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-10-2019 02:16
    I have not seen the issue in South Carolina but have run across cases of expanding lead in keys mostly on pianos that are old and neglected and in places that lacked air conditioning and humidity control ------------------------------ James Kelly Pawleys Island SC


    Which is why we have a LOT of expanding leads in Hawaii.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 12.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Posted 06-02-2019 17:58
    maybe kluge has a "tropical" option you can order in a new keyset. Sure sounds acetylated

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 13.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-03-2019 08:07
    I only have the most rudimentary understanding of acetylation so I don't know if it's possible to do lighter and heavier applications. Perhaps there is a way to produce something that works as a piano key without hardening the wood to the point of an Accoya door sill. I think I will try and check with Bob Marinelli to see if he can shed some light on the subject.

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    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
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  • 14.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-04-2019 17:37
    The following idea is purely speculation however it occurred to me shortly after learning the facts. The information comes from a retired gypsum company troubleshooter.

    Roughly 10+ years ago there was some importing of sheetrock from China that had a very high sulpher content (a result of different standards of manufacture between U.S. and China, and not tested for here until after the debacle).  Most of this sheetrock went to the southern (very humid) states recovering from disasters. 

    The problem was that when the gypsum was exposed to high humidity, it began offgassing corrosive fumes (hydrogen sulfide or sulfate or some such stuff...don't recall the exact terminology, but it basically created sulfuric acid) that reacted with anything made of copper, destroying copper pipes, electrical wiring, etc. Ultimately these houses had to totally gutted inside and rebuilt with "proper" sheetrock. 

    So, not being a chemical engineer I don't KNOW if this could have had an effect on lead. Does anyone who knows chemistry know if this is at all possible? Or could offgassing of other chemicals such as in carpeting, flooring, or plastics, etc when subjected to high moisture, cause any if this lead corrosion. It does seem to be largely found in consistently humid areas.

    Curious.

    Pwg

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 15.  RE: Key lead corrosion and acetic acid

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-05-2019 04:07
    Blaine, the big red carpenter ants here secret an amber acrid smelling goo. It doesn't seem to affect key leads but it will corrode the nickel plating off of the keypins.

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    Steven Rosenthal
    Honolulu HI
    808-521-7129
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