Pianotech

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.  

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles. 

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed. 
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Joseph. 

I understand you wanting to save and reposition the original knuckles, but you might be better off, time wise and accuracy wise, to buy a new set of shanks with the knuckles in the right place,  and hang the hammers.  

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/11/2020 6:32:00 PM
From: Willem Blees
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph. 

I understand you wanting to save and reposition the original knuckles, but you might be better off, time wise and accuracy wise, to buy a new set of shanks with the knuckles in the right place,  and hang the hammers.  

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

The only reason to do this is because you bid too low and are looking to make $.50/hour doing so.

------------------------------
Larry Messerly, RPT
Bringing Harmony to Homes
www.lacrossepianotuning.com
ljmesserly@gmail.com
928-899-7292
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:09
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I'm with Wim on this one.

Roger

Original Message:
Sent: 6/11/2020 6:32:00 PM
From: Willem Blees
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph. 

I understand you wanting to save and reposition the original knuckles, but you might be better off, time wise and accuracy wise, to buy a new set of shanks with the knuckles in the right place,  and hang the hammers.  

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out. 

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Richard Davenport taught this approach.
If you have the right jigs it should go rather quickly. You'll need to make a carriage to move the shank accurately across the table saw.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

A table saw is too extreme to make the slot. I've used a small chop saw, two cuts to get the kerf wide enough. I also made a caul for pressing in the knuckle; they must be of uniform height.

An alternative to cutting off the knuckle is to pull it out. Cut the slot wider, make a shim to fill the void for relocation. Reinstall the same knuckles having indexed them prior to removal (a line drawn on one side, fore or aft).

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

i haven't done it, because replacing shanks with wng shanks, is such a big bang for the buck thing its not worth it to save money on this procedure.

however, to your question...its a fairly simple procedure to just kerf the shank on a cutoff box, on a table saw. You need a table saw, with a very fine small kerf blade, and a cutoff box. Search cutoff boxes in woodworking land. The cutoff box base, will be made out of plywood. You set up positioning stops on the plywood base, and set each shank in your positioning stops. it goes fairly quickly. The only real tough part is finding a blade with a kerf the same size as your new splines.  7-1/2" throwaway circular saw blades by Diablo (freud) are very commonly available, and produce a 1/16' kerf...I'd try that to start.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Thanks for the tip on this Jim. I went to Home depot and mesaured the kerf on many different circular saw blades and there is a surprising variation from large to a very narry kerf. I bought a blade with a kerf a little smaller than the width of the new knuckle insert. I have done some sample cuts with this new blade, but the cut is still slightly too big for the knuckle insert, so that tells me there may be some slight wabble in my table saw. I did find blades with an even narrower kerf, so I would get on of those if I decide to go forward with this procedure.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 20:57
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

i haven't done it, because replacing shanks with wng shanks, is such a big bang for the buck thing its not worth it to save money on this procedure.

however, to your question...its a fairly simple procedure to just kerf the shank on a cutoff box, on a table saw. You need a table saw, with a very fine small kerf blade, and a cutoff box. Search cutoff boxes in woodworking land. The cutoff box base, will be made out of plywood. You set up positioning stops on the plywood base, and set each shank in your positioning stops. it goes fairly quickly. The only real tough part is finding a blade with a kerf the same size as your new splines.  7-1/2" throwaway circular saw blades by Diablo (freud) are very commonly available, and produce a 1/16' kerf...I'd try that to start.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Is this your own piano or a customer's

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/11/2020 9:15:00 PM
From: Willem Blees
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Is this your own piano or a customer's

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Thanks Keith,
It's good know that you have done this successfully, and that it is time and cost effective. I will email Dale and ask him to send me a picture of the jig he made.
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 12:00
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I have done this. 

Two of us Randy Chastain and myself, did it in an hour maybe 2, in Dale Erwins shop.

He has a jig which is like what Jim described. You might email Dale.

The saw blade, the 7 1/4 Diablo works perfect. Almost too tight for easy gluing. I started doing two passes (push through, pull back smooth) to make sure the cut was clean.

A jig like Jon suggested would be nice. Height is important but level and square to the action and shank is critical

For the first time,,, we had a few sloppies but not many. I think we had to get a couple of extra knuckles from Dale as they only give you 90 of them in a set.

I found it easy. Maybe a half a day. You spend more time putting on new shanks because you have to rehang the hammers. Replacing knuckles has a significant reduction in cost of parts and labor.

Original Message:
Sent: 6/11/2020 9:15:00 PM
From: Willem Blees
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Is this your own piano or a customer's

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 19:44
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Of course, I thought of replacing the shanks with new ones, but I wanted to try to do the job this way at least once to see how it might work out. I guess what I can do is to put new knuckles on a small number of the original shanks and see how much time it takes and how accurately things come out.

Is there anyone out there that has actually done this?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Very difficult to be that accurate cutting a new slot.  Jon Page's approach is probably the best if you are going to do that.  Plus the knuckle is probably the most expensive part of the shank assembly.  If you insist on going that route I'd just buy a new set of shanks, pop the old hammers off and rehang.  However you can do other things to change the leverage.  You can move the capstan, for example.  Relatively easy job and an AR is an AR.  It doesn't matter much how you get there.  Whether you achieve the desirable AR by moving the capstan or changing the knuckle hanging won't make any difference in the overall performance.  Plus the capstan gives you a bit more room for error.  

You can also change the leverage by shimming the balance rail or even installing a new balance rail bearing that shifts the balance point of the key achieving a leverage change that way.   These are called "optimized balance washers " and are sold by Jahn here. This is something recently available and would be my first choice in this case.  

 https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure/produkt.aspx?page=2&language=en&trkname=WebShop&id=100&dad=100-010-010-000-000  



------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

interesting washers. they look like plastic, probably hdpe. have you used them...are they noisy?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 02:50
From: David Love
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Very difficult to be that accurate cutting a new slot.  Jon Page's approach is probably the best if you are going to do that.  Plus the knuckle is probably the most expensive part of the shank assembly.  If you insist on going that route I'd just buy a new set of shanks, pop the old hammers off and rehang.  However you can do other things to change the leverage.  You can move the capstan, for example.  Relatively easy job and an AR is an AR.  It doesn't matter much how you get there.  Whether you achieve the desirable AR by moving the capstan or changing the knuckle hanging won't make any difference in the overall performance.  Plus the capstan gives you a bit more room for error.

You can also change the leverage by shimming the balance rail or even installing a new balance rail bearing that shifts the balance point of the key achieving a leverage change that way.   These are called "optimized balance washers " and are sold by Jahn here. This is something recently available and would be my first choice in this case.

 https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure/produkt.aspx?page=2&language=en&trkname=WebShop&id=100&dad=100-010-010-000-000



------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

I don't know if this would work or if they make the tool that small, but my son, who is a contractor needed to use my drill press for a project.  He was drilling square holes in wood.  I often wondered how they drilled square holes.  I don't know what the tool is called but I will find out.  If the key is laid on its side and positioned correctly could you drill that slot?  You might have to make a jig to hold the keys.

Clarence Zeches RPT

------------------------------
Clarence Zeches
Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
Toccoa GA
706-886-4035
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 07:35
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

interesting washers. they look like plastic, probably hdpe. have you used them...are they noisy?

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 02:50
From: David Love
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Very difficult to be that accurate cutting a new slot.  Jon Page's approach is probably the best if you are going to do that.  Plus the knuckle is probably the most expensive part of the shank assembly.  If you insist on going that route I'd just buy a new set of shanks, pop the old hammers off and rehang.  However you can do other things to change the leverage.  You can move the capstan, for example.  Relatively easy job and an AR is an AR.  It doesn't matter much how you get there.  Whether you achieve the desirable AR by moving the capstan or changing the knuckle hanging won't make any difference in the overall performance.  Plus the capstan gives you a bit more room for error.

You can also change the leverage by shimming the balance rail or even installing a new balance rail bearing that shifts the balance point of the key achieving a leverage change that way.   These are called "optimized balance washers " and are sold by Jahn here. This is something recently available and would be my first choice in this case.

 https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure/produkt.aspx?page=2&language=en&trkname=WebShop&id=100&dad=100-010-010-000-000



------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Another consideration when relocating the knuckle is how it aligns to the jack center. At rest, the knuckle is aligned to the center pin (points at it). If you move the core, you might have to increase the action spread. As David mentioned, capstan relocation is much easier than knuckle relocation, if there is room on the wippen cushion.
Top action relocation might be possible.

Set up a few test samples with a shank of your desired execution. On one action, I needed to perform extensive alterations.

I documented the results on C4:
a. Original survey
b. Reshape hammers/taper/re-arc tails/graduate weight
c. Move knuckles out to 18.5mm
d. Move top action back 3 mm
e. Alter FW to target 38 BW

    UW  DW  BW  F  SW  FW  SBR
a.  32   60    46  14 10.9  32  6.4
b.  26   52    39  13   9.9  32  6.3
c.  24   44    34   10  9.9  32  5.8
d.  22   38    30    8   9.9  32  5.4
e.  30    46   38    8   9.9  24  5.4

There are many aspects to achieving results. It starts with many sample experimentations.
What a long, strange trip it's been...




------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Thanks David,
I will do some more evaluation to see if I can alter the ratio in other ways besides a knuckle change. The piano has pretty brand new Renner wippens on it, which I want to keep, so there is a limit to how much I can move the capstan. 

Those "Optimized Balance Washers" look great. They increase the front length of the key and decrese the bank length of the key, which has a simlar effect of moving the capstan toward the balance pin. I wonder how the result differs from moving the capstan. Using the washers the total length of the operational part of the key is kept intact, whereas a capstan change shortens the total length of the operational part of the key. 

The piano in question that I am working on is a 1922 Steinway O, so it has punchings under the key at the balance pin, not the half rounds. So, it looks like the "Optimized Balance Washers" would work well. Do you know the height of these things as they rest on the balance rail? I just pulled a key from the Steinway O, and the punchings are 0.0.85" thick.  I am thinking that these washers could not be used on Steinways that have half rounds under the key?
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 02:50
From: David Love
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Very difficult to be that accurate cutting a new slot.  Jon Page's approach is probably the best if you are going to do that.  Plus the knuckle is probably the most expensive part of the shank assembly.  If you insist on going that route I'd just buy a new set of shanks, pop the old hammers off and rehang.  However you can do other things to change the leverage.  You can move the capstan, for example.  Relatively easy job and an AR is an AR.  It doesn't matter much how you get there.  Whether you achieve the desirable AR by moving the capstan or changing the knuckle hanging won't make any difference in the overall performance.  Plus the capstan gives you a bit more room for error.

You can also change the leverage by shimming the balance rail or even installing a new balance rail bearing that shifts the balance point of the key achieving a leverage change that way.   These are called "optimized balance washers " and are sold by Jahn here. This is something recently available and would be my first choice in this case.

 https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure/produkt.aspx?page=2&language=en&trkname=WebShop&id=100&dad=100-010-010-000-000



------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

A one mm move of the knuckle is the same as about a 3 mm move of the capstan (or so, I'd have to check) so usually you can accommodate that without a problem. You can also add a strip of action cloth over the wippen heal if needed. Generally when moving the capstan I straighten them so they are not angled. If you have an angled heal on this set of wippens then I might not  

Those washers should work with either the punching style or the bearing. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:34
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Thanks David,
I will do some more evaluation to see if I can alter the ratio in other ways besides a knuckle change. The piano has pretty brand new Renner wippens on it, which I want to keep, so there is a limit to how much I can move the capstan.

Those "Optimized Balance Washers" look great. They increase the front length of the key and decrese the bank length of the key, which has a simlar effect of moving the capstan toward the balance pin. I wonder how the result differs from moving the capstan. Using the washers the total length of the operational part of the key is kept intact, whereas a capstan change shortens the total length of the operational part of the key.

The piano in question that I am working on is a 1922 Steinway O, so it has punchings under the key at the balance pin, not the half rounds. So, it looks like the "Optimized Balance Washers" would work well. Do you know the height of these things as they rest on the balance rail? I just pulled a key from the Steinway O, and the punchings are 0.0.85" thick.  I am thinking that these washers could not be used on Steinways that have half rounds under the key?
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 02:50
From: David Love
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Very difficult to be that accurate cutting a new slot.  Jon Page's approach is probably the best if you are going to do that.  Plus the knuckle is probably the most expensive part of the shank assembly.  If you insist on going that route I'd just buy a new set of shanks, pop the old hammers off and rehang.  However you can do other things to change the leverage.  You can move the capstan, for example.  Relatively easy job and an AR is an AR.  It doesn't matter much how you get there.  Whether you achieve the desirable AR by moving the capstan or changing the knuckle hanging won't make any difference in the overall performance.  Plus the capstan gives you a bit more room for error.

You can also change the leverage by shimming the balance rail or even installing a new balance rail bearing that shifts the balance point of the key achieving a leverage change that way.   These are called "optimized balance washers " and are sold by Jahn here. This is something recently available and would be my first choice in this case.

 https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure/produkt.aspx?page=2&language=en&trkname=WebShop&id=100&dad=100-010-010-000-000



------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Hi Tim,
Yes, please send some pictures of your jig setup. That would be very helpful. How the heck did you file the sides of a circular saw blade accuratley? Did you file all the teeth at one time using some sort of flat table with sand paper on it?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 09:43
From: Tim Coates
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

I will send pictures. 

You need to know the knuckle width and know that blades cut a few thousandths  wider when in actual use.  Work in small increments to narrow the blade using real life cuts and dry knuckle insertion.  The blade is done using a caliper to measure and spot check teeth/blade width.  If you start with small steps using a fine file gang filing each side on a flat table you will get a feel for your filing movements.  Put the blade in the table saw and make some cuts on old shanks so you can insert a knuckle to check your fit.  If the slot is narrow remove the blade and file slightly again until you have the exact fit.  I know this may sound tedious, but it really doesn't take long and once done you never have to do it again.  I have found the dimension of knuckle core width is the same from set to set.   Store the blade on a flat surface to keep perfectly flat and don't use it for anything else.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:37
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hi Tim,
Yes, please send some pictures of your jig setup. That would be very helpful. How the heck did you file the sides of a circular saw blade accuratley? Did you file all the teeth at one time using some sort of flat table with sand paper on it?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 09:43
From: Tim Coates
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/13/2020 7:14:00 AM
From: Tim Coates
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I will send pictures. 

You need to know the knuckle width and know that blades cut a few thousandths  wider when in actual use.  Work in small increments to narrow the blade using real life cuts and dry knuckle insertion.  The blade is done using a caliper to measure and spot check teeth/blade width.  If you start with small steps using a fine file gang filing each side on a flat table you will get a feel for your filing movements.  Put the blade in the table saw and make some cuts on old shanks so you can insert a knuckle to check your fit.  If the slot is narrow remove the blade and file slightly again until you have the exact fit.  I know this may sound tedious, but it really doesn't take long and once done you never have to do it again.  I have found the dimension of knuckle core width is the same from set to set.   Store the blade on a flat surface to keep perfectly flat and don't use it for anything else.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:37
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hi Tim,
Yes, please send some pictures of your jig setup. That would be very helpful. How the heck did you file the sides of a circular saw blade accuratley? Did you file all the teeth at one time using some sort of flat table with sand paper on it?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 09:43
From: Tim Coates
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Not sure why the knuckles need to be cut off by hand.  All I've ever used is a band saw.  Fast and accurate.  When you use a band saw correctly the scraping and cleaning of the knuckle area is done in one process with a power saw.  Pretty easy.    


------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 10:46
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Today I will be uploading a YT video of a jig designed and made by Rolad Kaplan, RPT many years ago. I have used it two or three times with success. The quality of the video, also many years old, is not too sharp, but there is easily enough to see (closeups and such) to get the idea of how everything is put together and how it works. The jig operates on a table saw. Two finish-cut blades (no tooth offsets) are featured, both cutting slots of approx. 0.068", which is too narrow for a typical knuckle core. The jig demonstrates a simple way to accomplish the required width of the kerf with only two passes (i.e. you do all shanks with the first pass, then all shanks with the second pass - 40 minutes tops). The video demonstrates the procedure using a few old shanks, not an actual wholesale job.

The procedure requires flush cutting off the old knuckles by hand, leaving a piece of the original core in place. I don't recall exactly, but it seems to me that the entire job of cutting off the old knuckles, scraping and cleaning the knuckle area, cutting the slots and gluing on new knuckles with hot glue took about 3.5 hours. Setting up and trimming the jig was extra.

Assuming that the original shanks and hammers were traveled and burned, the advantage of new knuckles is that this won't have to be considered (but checked and any outliers corrected). So as to maintain and reduce spacing issues, we laid the tails of the original hammers on a long board (shanks still attached to the rail), and then removed every other shank, cut off the knuckles, cleaned, kerfed, glued on the new knuckles and screwed back on to the rail with eyeball spacing. Finish up with the remaining shanks.

Nick G

Original Message:
Sent: 6/13/2020 7:14:00 AM
From: Tim Coates
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I will send pictures.

You need to know the knuckle width and know that blades cut a few thousandths  wider when in actual use.  Work in small increments to narrow the blade using real life cuts and dry knuckle insertion.  The blade is done using a caliper to measure and spot check teeth/blade width.  If you start with small steps using a fine file gang filing each side on a flat table you will get a feel for your filing movements.  Put the blade in the table saw and make some cuts on old shanks so you can insert a knuckle to check your fit.  If the slot is narrow remove the blade and file slightly again until you have the exact fit.  I know this may sound tedious, but it really doesn't take long and once done you never have to do it again.  I have found the dimension of knuckle core width is the same from set to set.   Store the blade on a flat surface to keep perfectly flat and don't use it for anything else.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:37
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hi Tim,
Yes, please send some pictures of your jig setup. That would be very helpful. How the heck did you file the sides of a circular saw blade accuratley? Did you file all the teeth at one time using some sort of flat table with sand paper on it?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 09:43
From: Tim Coates
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Thank you Nick for the Video. I will keep a look out on your Youtube channel. I just checked it and don't yet see it.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 10:46
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Today I will be uploading a YT video of a jig designed and made by Rolad Kaplan, RPT many years ago. I have used it two or three times with success. The quality of the video, also many years old, is not too sharp, but there is easily enough to see (closeups and such) to get the idea of how everything is put together and how it works. The jig operates on a table saw. Two finish-cut blades (no tooth offsets) are featured, both cutting slots of approx. 0.068", which is too narrow for a typical knuckle core. The jig demonstrates a simple way to accomplish the required width of the kerf with only two passes (i.e. you do all shanks with the first pass, then all shanks with the second pass - 40 minutes tops). The video demonstrates the procedure using a few old shanks, not an actual wholesale job.

The procedure requires flush cutting off the old knuckles by hand, leaving a piece of the original core in place. I don't recall exactly, but it seems to me that the entire job of cutting off the old knuckles, scraping and cleaning the knuckle area, cutting the slots and gluing on new knuckles with hot glue took about 3.5 hours. Setting up and trimming the jig was extra.

Assuming that the original shanks and hammers were traveled and burned, the advantage of new knuckles is that this won't have to be considered (but checked and any outliers corrected). So as to maintain and reduce spacing issues, we laid the tails of the original hammers on a long board (shanks still attached to the rail), and then removed every other shank, cut off the knuckles, cleaned, kerfed, glued on the new knuckles and screwed back on to the rail with eyeball spacing. Finish up with the remaining shanks.

Nick G

Original Message:
Sent: 6/13/2020 7:14:00 AM
From: Tim Coates
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I will send pictures.

You need to know the knuckle width and know that blades cut a few thousandths  wider when in actual use.  Work in small increments to narrow the blade using real life cuts and dry knuckle insertion.  The blade is done using a caliper to measure and spot check teeth/blade width.  If you start with small steps using a fine file gang filing each side on a flat table you will get a feel for your filing movements.  Put the blade in the table saw and make some cuts on old shanks so you can insert a knuckle to check your fit.  If the slot is narrow remove the blade and file slightly again until you have the exact fit.  I know this may sound tedious, but it really doesn't take long and once done you never have to do it again.  I have found the dimension of knuckle core width is the same from set to set.   Store the blade on a flat surface to keep perfectly flat and don't use it for anything else.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:37
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hi Tim,
Yes, please send some pictures of your jig setup. That would be very helpful. How the heck did you file the sides of a circular saw blade accuratley? Did you file all the teeth at one time using some sort of flat table with sand paper on it?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 09:43
From: Tim Coates
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/14/2020 4:03:00 PM
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Thank you Nick for the Video. I will keep a look out on your Youtube channel. I just checked it and don't yet see it.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 10:46
From: Nicholas Gravagne
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Today I will be uploading a YT video of a jig designed and made by Rolad Kaplan, RPT many years ago. I have used it two or three times with success. The quality of the video, also many years old, is not too sharp, but there is easily enough to see (closeups and such) to get the idea of how everything is put together and how it works. The jig operates on a table saw. Two finish-cut blades (no tooth offsets) are featured, both cutting slots of approx. 0.068", which is too narrow for a typical knuckle core. The jig demonstrates a simple way to accomplish the required width of the kerf with only two passes (i.e. you do all shanks with the first pass, then all shanks with the second pass - 40 minutes tops). The video demonstrates the procedure using a few old shanks, not an actual wholesale job.

The procedure requires flush cutting off the old knuckles by hand, leaving a piece of the original core in place. I don't recall exactly, but it seems to me that the entire job of cutting off the old knuckles, scraping and cleaning the knuckle area, cutting the slots and gluing on new knuckles with hot glue took about 3.5 hours. Setting up and trimming the jig was extra.

Assuming that the original shanks and hammers were traveled and burned, the advantage of new knuckles is that this won't have to be considered (but checked and any outliers corrected). So as to maintain and reduce spacing issues, we laid the tails of the original hammers on a long board (shanks still attached to the rail), and then removed every other shank, cut off the knuckles, cleaned, kerfed, glued on the new knuckles and screwed back on to the rail with eyeball spacing. Finish up with the remaining shanks.

Nick G

Original Message:
Sent: 6/13/2020 7:14:00 AM
From: Tim Coates
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I will send pictures.

You need to know the knuckle width and know that blades cut a few thousandths  wider when in actual use.  Work in small increments to narrow the blade using real life cuts and dry knuckle insertion.  The blade is done using a caliper to measure and spot check teeth/blade width.  If you start with small steps using a fine file gang filing each side on a flat table you will get a feel for your filing movements.  Put the blade in the table saw and make some cuts on old shanks so you can insert a knuckle to check your fit.  If the slot is narrow remove the blade and file slightly again until you have the exact fit.  I know this may sound tedious, but it really doesn't take long and once done you never have to do it again.  I have found the dimension of knuckle core width is the same from set to set.   Store the blade on a flat surface to keep perfectly flat and don't use it for anything else.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:37
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hi Tim,
Yes, please send some pictures of your jig setup. That would be very helpful. How the heck did you file the sides of a circular saw blade accuratley? Did you file all the teeth at one time using some sort of flat table with sand paper on it?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 09:43
From: Tim Coates
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I've done this several times and it is cost effective compared to replacing shanks.  Doesn't take long.  I've used several different jigs I created, but it really boils done to a straight slot at the right depth.  Practice on old shanks to make sure your cut is correct and away you go!  I use a table saw blade that I've filed the sides so the cut is always the correct width.  I only use that blade for knuckle replacement.  The knuckle needs to fit tightly so it doesn't wiggle.  A little Buldoc glue on the tip of the wood core will easily hold the knuckle in place.  If the knuckle is seated properly onto the shank (very easy to do), it will be perpendicular and square with the knuckle leather just touching the shank.  I will have to dig out my jig and take pictures as my final setup uses a Spurlock Hammer Trimming jig to lock the shank in place.  No need to remove hammers in this process.

------------------------------
Tim Coates
Sioux Falls SD

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Joseph,
When replacing knuckles, investigate if the knuckle covering has a nap. (from a dictionary definition:  "the raised hairs, threads, or similar small projections on the surface of fabric or suede (used especially with reference to the direction in which they naturally lie"). Your supplier should be able to tell you that information.  When we replaced knuckles, they were genuine buckskin .I'm not sure what material is used now or if it has two "feels" depending on the direction. Back then, the replacement knuckles came with a pencil mark on the buckskin on one side near the spline and the idea was to make sure all knuckles went in with the nap running the same direction by paying attention to the pencil marks.
Our friend who works at Renner would not only feel with a finger which way the nap ran, but tested it on his lip which is more sensitive. My preference is to have the jack initially work "against the grain" which gives a nice "crunch" to the key stroke. Then the smoother direction gets the jack back under the knuckle, ready for repetition, faster. But I have heard others prefer the opposite direction I guess for faster action speed on the key stroke. Just another thing to consider for this project.
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Joel,
This is the kind of detail I like. I would have never even thought of checking for a nap on the knuckle. They knuckles I bought are Abel and I assume real buckskin, but I am not certain. 

I am wondering what you mean by a nice "crunch" to the key stroke. Why do you like having the nap "against the grain? Just guessing, I would think that most pianists would want to feel as smooth a motion as possible as the key is pressed down, and since the return the key is not felt by the pianist, the feel on that does not matter. So, I would think to put the smoother side of the nap on the downstroke of the key.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 11:29
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
When replacing knuckles, investigate if the knuckle covering has a nap. (from a dictionary definition:  "the raised hairs, threads, or similar small projections on the surface of fabric or suede (used especially with reference to the direction in which they naturally lie"). Your supplier should be able to tell you that information.  When we replaced knuckles, they were genuine buckskin .I'm not sure what material is used now or if it has two "feels" depending on the direction. Back then, the replacement knuckles came with a pencil mark on the buckskin on one side near the spline and the idea was to make sure all knuckles went in with the nap running the same direction by paying attention to the pencil marks.
Our friend who works at Renner would not only feel with a finger which way the nap ran, but tested it on his lip which is more sensitive. My preference is to have the jack initially work "against the grain" which gives a nice "crunch" to the key stroke. Then the smoother direction gets the jack back under the knuckle, ready for repetition, faster. But I have heard others prefer the opposite direction I guess for faster action speed on the key stroke. Just another thing to consider for this project.
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Hi Joseph,
You want to make sure you're moving the knuckles to exactly the right place. You could move just one knuckle and regulate it and check the result, and/or calculate the action ratio from measurements. We offer action geometry service for free if you fill out this web form:

https://www.reyburn.com/geometry.html    There's a pdf with pictures, you simply need an accurate tape measure and caliper.

Is the action ratio and wippen ratio optimal for the result you want? If not it's common to move the capstan and maybe wippen heel to fix that issue. See Nick Gravagne's articles in PTJournal.

Best of luck,

------------------------------
Dean Reyburn, RPT
Reyburn Pianoworks
Reyburn CyberTuner
1-616-498-9854
dean@reyburn.com
www.reyburnpianoworks.com
www.cybertuner.com
www.martysmasks.com 
Facebook: www.facebook.com/dean.reyburn
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Many thanks for all the helpful comments. The piano that I thinking of doing the knuckle change to is a 1922 Steinway O. I own the piano, so I can do whatever I want to it. One thing that has occurred to me is if I install new shanks and rehang the hammers, instead of moving the knuckles, I would be able to create a custom strike point curve as many techs do in the mid and high treble section. The option of being able to do this may change my mind into installing new shanks. I will do some experimenting to see if moving the strike points on this piano inproves performance.

Nick Gravagne's action series in the Journal has been like striking gold for me. I have read each article a number of times, until all was understood, and have taken extensive notes, setting up a loose leaf notebook that has my notes along with all of the printed out articles. I will use this as a reference and guide in my work. I also have Nicks Action Program, which I now will be able to use and understand at a much deeper level. A million thanks to Nick for all the hard work he has put into this series!


------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 13:19
From: Dean Reyburn
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hi Joseph,
You want to make sure you're moving the knuckles to exactly the right place. You could move just one knuckle and regulate it and check the result, and/or calculate the action ratio from measurements. We offer action geometry service for free if you fill out this web form:

https://www.reyburn.com/geometry.html    There's a pdf with pictures, you simply need an accurate tape measure and caliper.

Is the action ratio and wippen ratio optimal for the result you want? If not it's common to move the capstan and maybe wippen heel to fix that issue. See Nick Gravagne's articles in PTJournal.

Best of luck,

------------------------------
Dean Reyburn, RPT
Reyburn Pianoworks
Reyburn CyberTuner
1-616-498-9854
dean@reyburn.com
www.reyburnpianoworks.com
www.cybertuner.com
www.martysmasks.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/dean.reyburn

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

I'm all in for a smooth jack return with the smooth nap. Specially critical when adjusting the jack height in the rep window. Any slight resistance will cause the jack to hang up.   I recently repinned hammer flanges and the rep levers to refine the spring tension for the jack to reset. Before, the spring had to be so strong (to support hammer weight due to the floppy flanges) that the hammer leapt off the back check and the lever impacted on the upstop screw.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

I was taught that the nap orientation should be as Joel describes. The same holds true for back checks, and butt and catcher leathers on verticals. What I was taught is that the nap lays down like fish scales, giving purchase against the grain and a smoother surface with the grain. Something the synthetics do not duplicate well, if at all. 

I'd like to say that the level of experience and erudition in this community is really remarkable. Thank you all.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:29
From: Jon Page
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I'm all in for a smooth jack return with the smooth nap. Specially critical when adjusting the jack height in the rep window. Any slight resistance will cause the jack to hang up.   I recently repinned hammer flanges and the rep levers to refine the spring tension for the jack to reset. Before, the spring had to be so strong (to support hammer weight due to the floppy flanges) that the hammer leapt off the back check and the lever impacted on the upstop screw.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Last week I had a chance to ask Bruce Clark, designer of WNG composite action parts about this.
He said:
1) WNG knuckles are covered with "the same kind of material as ecsaine."
2) Ecsaine does have directional nap, very slight.
3) In conversations with European and American technicians, he found no consensus on correct orientation of buckskin nap, some say more let-off resistance is desireable, some prefer ease of let-off.
4) His solution is to orient the nap "sideways!" This way the difference in resistance is not noticeable and the WNG knuckle can be oriented either way. This enables installation in units of 0.5 mm difference from the center pin.

I don't know if other action parts makers are as open as WNG, but I suspect ecsaine is now the industry standard. Ecsaine is also much, much more wear resistant than buckskin.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Not directly related to the question of nap direction, but current NY Steinway shanks are produced with the knuckle cores attached at the very first step, before the individual shanks are sliced apart. This tends to make the cp to knuckle distance and exact profile of the knuckles more regular and precise than might otherwise be the case, with implications for action ration and friction at escapement. Like all parts, they have their issues, but I do believe that in this one respect at least they are superior.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2020 13:44
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Last week I had a chance to ask Bruce Clark, designer of WNG composite action parts about this.
He said:
1) WNG knuckles are covered with "the same kind of material as ecsaine."
2) Ecsaine does have directional nap, very slight.
3) In conversations with European and American technicians, he found no consensus on correct orientation of buckskin nap, some say more let-off resistance is desireable, some prefer ease of let-off.
4) His solution is to orient the nap "sideways!" This way the difference in resistance is not noticeable and the WNG knuckle can be oriented either way. This enables installation in units of 0.5 mm difference from the center pin.

I don't know if other action parts makers are as open as WNG, but I suspect ecsaine is now the industry standard. Ecsaine is also much, much more wear resistant than buckskin.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

A conversation with a supplier today confirmed my impressions:
1) All piano and parts manufacturers now use ecsaine or related microfiber materials (including Steinway) because it can be supplied in large quantities with even textures, thicknesses and densities.
2) The material is available in many variants, for example backcheck covering can be modified to give extra "grip." Hammer butt and knuckle material is usually chosen for smoothness and density.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 06:52
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Not directly related to the question of nap direction, but current NY Steinway shanks are produced with the knuckle cores attached at the very first step, before the individual shanks are sliced apart. This tends to make the cp to knuckle distance and exact profile of the knuckles more regular and precise than might otherwise be the case, with implications for action ration and friction at escapement. Like all parts, they have their issues, but I do believe that in this one respect at least they are superior.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2020 13:44
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Last week I had a chance to ask Bruce Clark, designer of WNG composite action parts about this.
He said:
1) WNG knuckles are covered with "the same kind of material as ecsaine."
2) Ecsaine does have directional nap, very slight.
3) In conversations with European and American technicians, he found no consensus on correct orientation of buckskin nap, some say more let-off resistance is desireable, some prefer ease of let-off.
4) His solution is to orient the nap "sideways!" This way the difference in resistance is not noticeable and the WNG knuckle can be oriented either way. This enables installation in units of 0.5 mm difference from the center pin.

I don't know if other action parts makers are as open as WNG, but I suspect ecsaine is now the industry standard. Ecsaine is also much, much more wear resistant than buckskin.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Good news for the reindeer, I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 12:52
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

A conversation with a supplier today confirmed my impressions:
1) All piano and parts manufacturers now use ecsaine or related microfiber materials (including Steinway) because it can be supplied in large quantities with even textures, thicknesses and densities.
2) The material is available in many variants, for example backcheck covering can be modified to give extra "grip." Hammer butt and knuckle material is usually chosen for smoothness and density.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 06:52
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Not directly related to the question of nap direction, but current NY Steinway shanks are produced with the knuckle cores attached at the very first step, before the individual shanks are sliced apart. This tends to make the cp to knuckle distance and exact profile of the knuckles more regular and precise than might otherwise be the case, with implications for action ration and friction at escapement. Like all parts, they have their issues, but I do believe that in this one respect at least they are superior.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2020 13:44
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Last week I had a chance to ask Bruce Clark, designer of WNG composite action parts about this.
He said:
1) WNG knuckles are covered with "the same kind of material as ecsaine."
2) Ecsaine does have directional nap, very slight.
3) In conversations with European and American technicians, he found no consensus on correct orientation of buckskin nap, some say more let-off resistance is desireable, some prefer ease of let-off.
4) His solution is to orient the nap "sideways!" This way the difference in resistance is not noticeable and the WNG knuckle can be oriented either way. This enables installation in units of 0.5 mm difference from the center pin.

I don't know if other action parts makers are as open as WNG, but I suspect ecsaine is now the industry standard. Ecsaine is also much, much more wear resistant than buckskin.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Does anyone know if ecsaine can be moistened and shaped into a form like would be found under the back end of a Steinway pedal?  (pics)

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 13:03
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Good news for the reindeer, I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 12:52
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

A conversation with a supplier today confirmed my impressions:
1) All piano and parts manufacturers now use ecsaine or related microfiber materials (including Steinway) because it can be supplied in large quantities with even textures, thicknesses and densities.
2) The material is available in many variants, for example backcheck covering can be modified to give extra "grip." Hammer butt and knuckle material is usually chosen for smoothness and density.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 06:52
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Not directly related to the question of nap direction, but current NY Steinway shanks are produced with the knuckle cores attached at the very first step, before the individual shanks are sliced apart. This tends to make the cp to knuckle distance and exact profile of the knuckles more regular and precise than might otherwise be the case, with implications for action ration and friction at escapement. Like all parts, they have their issues, but I do believe that in this one respect at least they are superior.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2020 13:44
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Last week I had a chance to ask Bruce Clark, designer of WNG composite action parts about this.
He said:
1) WNG knuckles are covered with "the same kind of material as ecsaine."
2) Ecsaine does have directional nap, very slight.
3) In conversations with European and American technicians, he found no consensus on correct orientation of buckskin nap, some say more let-off resistance is desireable, some prefer ease of let-off.
4) His solution is to orient the nap "sideways!" This way the difference in resistance is not noticeable and the WNG knuckle can be oriented either way. This enables installation in units of 0.5 mm difference from the center pin.

I don't know if other action parts makers are as open as WNG, but I suspect ecsaine is now the industry standard. Ecsaine is also much, much more wear resistant than buckskin.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Yes. I don't recall needing to moisten it.
For the hard plate on the bottom, I used 4-ply rag board scraps from a picture framing shop.

You can also impregnate ecsaine with paraffin wax. Put paraffin chips on a sheet of ecsaine and heat with a heat gun.
This makes excellent bushing material for pedal axles. (Thanks, Roger Jolly.)

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 14:34
From: Glen Hart
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Does anyone know if ecsaine can be moistened and shaped into a form like would be found under the back end of a Steinway pedal?  (pics)

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 13:03
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Good news for the reindeer, I guess.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 12:52
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

A conversation with a supplier today confirmed my impressions:
1) All piano and parts manufacturers now use ecsaine or related microfiber materials (including Steinway) because it can be supplied in large quantities with even textures, thicknesses and densities.
2) The material is available in many variants, for example backcheck covering can be modified to give extra "grip." Hammer butt and knuckle material is usually chosen for smoothness and density.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2020 06:52
From: Mark Dierauf
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Not directly related to the question of nap direction, but current NY Steinway shanks are produced with the knuckle cores attached at the very first step, before the individual shanks are sliced apart. This tends to make the cp to knuckle distance and exact profile of the knuckles more regular and precise than might otherwise be the case, with implications for action ration and friction at escapement. Like all parts, they have their issues, but I do believe that in this one respect at least they are superior.

------------------------------
Mark Dierauf
Concord NH
603-225-4652

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2020 13:44
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Last week I had a chance to ask Bruce Clark, designer of WNG composite action parts about this.
He said:
1) WNG knuckles are covered with "the same kind of material as ecsaine."
2) Ecsaine does have directional nap, very slight.
3) In conversations with European and American technicians, he found no consensus on correct orientation of buckskin nap, some say more let-off resistance is desireable, some prefer ease of let-off.
4) His solution is to orient the nap "sideways!" This way the difference in resistance is not noticeable and the WNG knuckle can be oriented either way. This enables installation in units of 0.5 mm difference from the center pin.

I don't know if other action parts makers are as open as WNG, but I suspect ecsaine is now the industry standard. Ecsaine is also much, much more wear resistant than buckskin.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:39
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Wow Ed, thanks for looking at the different knuckle coverings you have in your shop. Do any of you technicians every choose a shank for the type of knucle covering they have, because you like how they perform on the key stroke?

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 11:06
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Debra-
I looked up your post on Pianoworld.
Noting that there were different opinions in the thread, I went to my buckskin box to reconsider my understanding.
I have two thicknesses of ecsaine. The thin didn't seem to have much nap orientation.
The thick had clear nap orientation on one side, not so certain on the other.
Checking samples of buckskin, while all had some nap orientation, it was very extreme in some, subtle in others.
My impression is that manufacturers have switched to ecsaine for most places where buckskin was used, but I have not researched it.
Words generalize where materials individualize.
This is why it's good to discover your preferred supplier and stick with them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 19:22
From: Debra Legg
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Ecsaine has nap orientation. Several years ago this came up on the technicians board on Piano World. At that time I posted a photo demonstrating the nap.  Just like leather (and rugs) and has a more uniform thickness than leather.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 6/12/2020 6:01:00 PM
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: RE: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Some 21st century knuckles are covered with ecsaine, a synthetic leather.
Ecsaine does not have nap difference.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

<LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam.

Oh dear...block that metaphor...whew!

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Geez, Laroy's comment really seems a bit grandiose...really. I wonder if auto mechanics glorify spark plugs in this way. Its absurd when ya think about it, about how piano technicians insist on thinking about our machine as if its a transcendent embodiment of either the divine will or divine shill...take your pick.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 21:06
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

<LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam.

Oh dear...block that metaphor...whew!

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

"and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"  Bruce Springsteen on 1973's Greetings from Asbury Park.

Apparently auto mechanics do indeed wax poetic about cars and engine parts.

------------------------------
Karl Roeder
Pompano Beach FL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 22:28
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Geez, Laroy's comment really seems a bit grandiose...really. I wonder if auto mechanics glorify spark plugs in this way. Its absurd when ya think about it, about how piano technicians insist on thinking about our machine as if its a transcendent embodiment of either the divine will or divine shill...take your pick.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 21:06
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

<LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam.

Oh dear...block that metaphor...whew!

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 17:13
From: Alan Eder
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

I would like to underscore a couple of Joel's points.

1) While excessive friction is a problem, given what pianists have become accustomed to in the past few centuries, we do want some friction. (A zero friction situation might be ideal in a theoretical sense, but would feel weird to pianists.) So, having the right amount of friction is the right places is the balancing act we must achieve. None less than LaRoy Edwards, R.P.T. has compared the jack/knuckle interface to the scene "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, where the touch of God's finger animates Adam. I think that high-level pianists not only appreciate the quicker return of smooth-side-back nap orientation, but that they may also appreciate having that little bit of against-the-nap friction at the moment of let-off. It may enhance their sense of control. As I have mentioned before on this list, a great piano technician once said, "Friction: not too much, not too little. Without friction, we wouldn't be here!

2) Nick Gravagne is indeed a treasure, generously shared with us all. And in addition to his gift for channeling Frank Sinatra, he is also a fine drummer (not to mention a superb public speaker and great all-around guy!).

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Joel, thanks for the detailed explaination. If it is good enough for Alicia de la Rocha, it's good enough for me. Did you know that Alicia de la Rocha writes down the fingering for every note when she is learning a new piece of music? My piano teacher told me that a few months ago.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Hello all- I have some unique pictures that might be of interest to anyone considering moving knuckles.  About  35 years ago I invented the Hart Knuckle Buster.  Don't worry, this is not a sales pitch.  I don't make these any more and I'll show you how to make one.  I'm not even advocating that you do this. The only time I've ever done this was when correct dimension parts could not be bought. It's fantastic that we now have such a choice in parts and great technicians advancing the science of touch weight.   During the 1990's I sold several hundred of these tools at national conventions where I shared a booth with Bill Spurlock.  During that time the Korean pianos had a problem with squeaking knuckles.  It was so bad that it became a warranty problem and they paid technicians to replace them.  They suggested that they buy this tool because it didn't damage the knuckle or the shank upon removal. The knuckle removal pliers invariably cause more damage than they're worth.  Hopefully the pics are self explanatory. (Unfortunately they never upload in order).  

The design is a tapered fork with a slot cut down the center and works like an automotive tie-rod separator. The fork is put in the drill press chuck and uses the quill feed. (with the power off!)  As the tool lowers it puts pressure against the shank which prevents the shank from splitting. The tapered side levers out the knuckle. It does no damage to the knuckle, even saving the "flaps" of the Steinway knuckles. If the knuckles are good they can be reused.   After setup, it takes about 20 minutes to do the whole set.   Three of the pics show how you can make one. The first one I made from an old chisel.  Cut off the handle. Get the steel red hot with a propane torch and let it cool slowly. This softens the steel. Taper the front of the chisel with a grinder and/or a belt sanded. Cut the slot with a carbide rod saw and open the slot at the end with a file and sharpen.  I think you can see what needs to be done from the pictures.  

If the knuckles are to be moved then the mortise must be filled. An inlay thicknessing tool from Veritas is perfect for this. It's a type of scraper and it perfectly sizes the filler material.  After filling the mortise and cleaning it up then a new mortise is cut.  Using a table saw with jigs sounds to me like a huge potential for creating problems.  I would love to see people's jigs and methods for doing this.  Knuckle core dimensions vary from 1.5mm to 2+mm.  The new mortise MUST be exact; just a couple of thousandths of play and you'll have knuckles leaning in both directions.  I think every serious technician should have an X-Y cross feed table on their drill press if they're in this business.  With this you can use an end mill cutter to cut the perfect mortise.  Use a 1/16" center cutting end mill.  You cut the slot in the Y direction then move the X axis the appropriate amount and cut again, widening the mortise to the correct dimension for the knuckle. If you do it right, the knuckle will snap right into place with no clamping or positioning necessary. Any glue is good but I like to be able to control the viscosity, which is important in this type of fit, so I usually use hot hide.

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:36
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joel, thanks for the detailed explaination. If it is good enough for Alicia de la Rocha, it's good enough for me. Did you know that Alicia de la Rocha writes down the fingering for every note when she is learning a new piece of music? My piano teacher told me that a few months ago.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------

Hi Glen, 
Thank you so much for posting these pictures, the video, and the detailed explanation. The tool you made does an excellent job and I like how you use an end mill cutter on your drill press. I will have to try that.
All the best and a Happy 4th of July to you.
Joe

------------------------------
Joe Burros
Cell: 646-410-7174
jbcello@gmail.com
www.fmi-newengland.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 18:46
From: Glen Hart
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Hello all- I have some unique pictures that might be of interest to anyone considering moving knuckles.  About  35 years ago I invented the Hart Knuckle Buster.  Don't worry, this is not a sales pitch.  I don't make these any more and I'll show you how to make one.  I'm not even advocating that you do this. The only time I've ever done this was when correct dimension parts could not be bought. It's fantastic that we now have such a choice in parts and great technicians advancing the science of touch weight.   During the 1990's I sold several hundred of these tools at national conventions where I shared a booth with Bill Spurlock.  During that time the Korean pianos had a problem with squeaking knuckles.  It was so bad that it became a warranty problem and they paid technicians to replace them.  They suggested that they buy this tool because it didn't damage the knuckle or the shank upon removal. The knuckle removal pliers invariably cause more damage than they're worth.  Hopefully the pics are self explanatory. (Unfortunately they never upload in order).  

The design is a tapered fork with a slot cut down the center and works like an automotive tie-rod separator. The fork is put in the drill press chuck and uses the quill feed. (with the power off!)  As the tool lowers it puts pressure against the shank which prevents the shank from splitting. The tapered side levers out the knuckle. It does no damage to the knuckle, even saving the "flaps" of the Steinway knuckles. If the knuckles are good they can be reused.   After setup, it takes about 20 minutes to do the whole set.   Three of the pics show how you can make one. The first one I made from an old chisel.  Cut off the handle. Get the steel red hot with a propane torch and let it cool slowly. This softens the steel. Taper the front of the chisel with a grinder and/or a belt sanded. Cut the slot with a carbide rod saw and open the slot at the end with a file and sharpen.  I think you can see what needs to be done from the pictures.  

If the knuckles are to be moved then the mortise must be filled. An inlay thicknessing tool from Veritas is perfect for this. It's a type of scraper and it perfectly sizes the filler material.  After filling the mortise and cleaning it up then a new mortise is cut.  Using a table saw with jigs sounds to me like a huge potential for creating problems.  I would love to see people's jigs and methods for doing this.  Knuckle core dimensions vary from 1.5mm to 2+mm.  The new mortise MUST be exact; just a couple of thousandths of play and you'll have knuckles leaning in both directions.  I think every serious technician should have an X-Y cross feed table on their drill press if they're in this business.  With this you can use an end mill cutter to cut the perfect mortise.  Use a 1/16" center cutting end mill.  You cut the slot in the Y direction then move the X axis the appropriate amount and cut again, widening the mortise to the correct dimension for the knuckle. If you do it right, the knuckle will snap right into place with no clamping or positioning necessary. Any glue is good but I like to be able to control the viscosity, which is important in this type of fit, so I usually use hot hide.

------------------------------
Glen Hart
Grand Junction CO
970-434-5558

Original Message:
Sent: 06-13-2020 12:36
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joel, thanks for the detailed explaination. If it is good enough for Alicia de la Rocha, it's good enough for me. Did you know that Alicia de la Rocha writes down the fingering for every note when she is learning a new piece of music? My piano teacher told me that a few months ago.

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698

Original Message:
Sent: 06-12-2020 16:02
From: Priscilla Rappaport
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Joseph,
Personally, I feel the after touch as a "crunch" and try to make that feel as even as possible. Performing artists have, in my experience, appreciated that feel and the evenness. So my reason for going against the grain on the keystroke is that it fits right in with the "crunch" feel of the after touch, especially considering that the escaping jack is a major part of after touch.  Further, it is not so much that the player feels the jack slipping back under the jack as they want it back as quickly as possible for the next key stroke.  Alicia de la Rocha was happy when she could repeat as fast as she wanted without letting the key return all the way up. Having the knuckle nap smooth on the jack return contributed immensely to accomplishing that, as well as having the knuckles lubricated with talc or teflon powder or whatever you prefer. Most artists with whom I have worked also want that quick repetition. In my opinion, having the jack top fight the rough nap during its return would slow these top performers down.
Now some might say "The rep lever raises the knuckle up so the jack top is not contacting the knuckle on its return." To which I would say "Not as fast as the top performers play; it seems these players need the jack back in position and ready to work before the wippen spring can think about raising up the rep lever."  And keep in mind, these folks have pretty strong fingers and control so a little bit of resistance on the key stroke not only presents no problem for them but most likely adds to their control. That's my read of the situation. Also, our general philosophy is to give the home user the same top-performing action as the one set up on stages.  I can't tell you the number of times a customer at home has had their teacher or even a top-performing friend come over and try the newly rebuilt piano. So we use the best materials and procedures we can.  But if casual players at home are bothered by the resistance, I can see why a technician would want the nap going the other way. Anyone else prefer one way or the other and what are your reasons?
And I agree with you about Nick Gravagne's contributions. He is a real treasure for us all and he's a great singer!
Joel

------------------------------
Joel Rappaport
Rappaport's Piano Workshop
Round Rock TX
512-255-0440

Original Message:
Sent: 06-11-2020 14:19
From: Joseph Burros
Subject: Need Advice on Replacing Knuckles in New Position on the Shank

Greetings,

For the first time, I will be removing existing knuckles, and then installing new knuckles at a different location on all 88 hammer shanks. I need to do this because the hammers and shanks are new, but the technician who installed them did not choose a shank with the proper knuckle distance in order to achieve a workable action ratio.

What I will do is cut the old knuckle off with a band saw, then clean up the cut on the shank with my oscillating belt sander. Then I am going to make a jig so I can quickly and easily cut a new slot of the correct dimentions on each hammer shank on my table saw. Once this is complete, gluing in the new knuckles should be an easy job. The original shanks and knuckels are Abel Encore, so I will be putting in new Abel knuckles.

I have three questions:
1) Can those of you who have done this give me some general advice on how to proceed.
2) Has anyone every make a jig for this that works well? Can you share the design with me?
3) How tight shall I make the slot in the hammer shank for the new knuckle? I want the fit to be tight, but not too tight, so as to not leave room for the glue to take hold.

Many thanks,
Joe

------------------------------
Joseph Burros
Springfield MA
413-303-1698
------------------------------