Pianotech

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing. 

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords. 

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place. 

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Wanted to add another pic. Didn't know how to on the last post.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 21:44
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Hi, Peter,

I used to service a number of Chickering grands and uprights with this
general approach to pinning.

When there's been glue, I suspect that it's actually just been shellac.
I found it necessary to match the thinness of the shellac with the
permeability of whatever felt you use. Probably Jurgen has something
dense enough to survive this particular kind of design.

Only FWIW, I almost always replaced the silk string(s) when they were
present. At 115 years old now, they've lived a full life...besides, as
sure as you don't replace one, it will break immediately upon returning
the action.

One thing I'm certain you've already thought about is what to do if
one/any of the brass pieces break. When I was doing this, I was good
friends with a truly first-rate machinist who would ("for a valuable
consideration") make new parts for me. I can't imagine what it would
cost to have someone do that now days.

In recent years, I've played with various kinds of CNC and 3D printing
of obsolete piano parts. While I've been reasonably successful, I've
also discovered that being able to do this kind of production at the
level of quality required means that one makes a substantial investment
in tools and software, let alone the amount of non-billable time one
spends in learning how to do the work well. While not everything is
about money, it is important to be able to pay one's bills. So, I'm
presently hoping that someone (WN&G comes to mind) with an already-large
investment in this kind of production will pick up the ball.

I've always loved working on such older (quality) instruments. They can
be rewarding in ways that many more modern instruments aren't. The
problem(s) seem to be with matching an appreciative owner with deep
enough pockets for things to be made right.

I hope that something here is useful.

Kind regards.

Horace



On 8/10/2019 6:48 PM, Peter Grey via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Wanted to add another pic. Didn't know how to on the last post.
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 08-10-2019 21:44
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing
>
> Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.
>
> So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this??? I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.
>
> There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.
>
> Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.
>
> Pwg
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com <pianodoctor57@gmail.com>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Reply to Sender : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=9e630203-91a1-491d-8c04-f5c286672e79&MID=707487&MDATE=756%253e45%253d465&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
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Original Message------

Wanted to add another pic. Didn't know how to on the last post.

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message------

Hi, Peter,

I used to service a number of Chickering grands and uprights with this
general approach to pinning.

When there's been glue, I suspect that it's actually just been shellac.
I found it necessary to match the thinness of the shellac with the
permeability of whatever felt you use. Probably Jurgen has something
dense enough to survive this particular kind of design.

Only FWIW, I almost always replaced the silk string(s) when they were
present. At 115 years old now, they've lived a full life...besides, as
sure as you don't replace one, it will break immediately upon returning
the action.

One thing I'm certain you've already thought about is what to do if
one/any of the brass pieces break. When I was doing this, I was good
friends with a truly first-rate machinist who would ("for a valuable
consideration") make new parts for me. I can't imagine what it would
cost to have someone do that now days.

In recent years, I've played with various kinds of CNC and 3D printing
of obsolete piano parts. While I've been reasonably successful, I've
also discovered that being able to do this kind of production at the
level of quality required means that one makes a substantial investment
in tools and software, let alone the amount of non-billable time one
spends in learning how to do the work well. While not everything is
about money, it is important to be able to pay one's bills. So, I'm
presently hoping that someone (WN&G comes to mind) with an already-large
investment in this kind of production will pick up the ball.

I've always loved working on such older (quality) instruments. They can
be rewarding in ways that many more modern instruments aren't. The
problem(s) seem to be with matching an appreciative owner with deep
enough pockets for things to be made right.

I hope that something here is useful.

Kind regards.

Horace



On 8/10/2019 6:48 PM, Peter Grey via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Please do not forward this message due to Auto Login.
>
> Wanted to add another pic. Didn't know how to on the last post.
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com
> ------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------
> Original Message:
> Sent: 08-10-2019 21:44
> From: Peter Grey
> Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing
>
> Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.
>
> So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this??? I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.
>
> There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.
>
> Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.
>
> Pwg
>
> ------------------------------
> Peter Grey
> Stratham NH
> 603-686-2395
> pianodoctor57@gmail.com <pianodoctor57@gmail.com>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Reply to Sender : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&SenderKey=9e630203-91a1-491d-8c04-f5c286672e79&MID=707487&MDATE=756%253e45%253d465&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
>
> Reply to Discussion : https://my.ptg.org/eGroups/PostReply/?GroupId=43&MID=707487&MDATE=756%253e45%253d465&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved
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> -------------------------------------------
>
>
> You are subscribed to "Pianotech" as hgreeley@sonic.net. To change your subscriptions, go to http://my.ptg.org/preferences?section=Subscriptions&MDATE=756%253e45%253d465&UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved. To unsubscribe from this community discussion, go to http://my.ptg.org/HigherLogic/eGroups/Unsubscribe.aspx?UserKey=3feecf45-4a69-4cff-bbb2-fd6c7eaf0569&sKey=KeyRemoved&GroupKey=2bb4ebe8-4dba-4640-ae67-111903beaddf.
>

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing. 

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords. 

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place. 

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace, 

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely. 

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this. 

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one. 

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately. 

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected. 

Hmmm. 

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Could it be Tungsten?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Okay...brass. Bright light and magnifying glass reveals the yellow color underneath the plating. 

I was on my way out earlier and looked quickly, expecting something obvious. It is subtle, but there.  

So I suspect that the age issue with brass comes when it is under continual stress such as would be the case when a screw is exerting continual compression or tension on the metal (e.g. holding a center pin in a groove for 75 years). I am not seeing this issue here, so I wonder now if it is going to become an issue.

BTW, Schaff has invested heavily in 3D printing and has produced a version of the Chickering grand whippen flanges (I just got a couple dozen but have not tried them yet).  I am told the plastic has carbon fiber in it and is exceptionally strong (very reasonable too!).  They are going to be producing numerous hard-to-find parts, as well as specific requests, so it appears that they are the go-to place for 3d piano stuff. 

So...back to the flange at hand...has THIS flange caused you the same problem as other Chickering brass flanges?  Horace, you intimated yes, but did not specifically say so (I don't think). 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 11:44
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Could it be Tungsten?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

And here I was exploring exotic non-magnetic alloys, which I hadn't known existed.

It passed belief, though, that Chickering in the 19th century would have had any interest in them.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 13:14
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Okay...brass. Bright light and magnifying glass reveals the yellow color underneath the plating.

I was on my way out earlier and looked quickly, expecting something obvious. It is subtle, but there.

So I suspect that the age issue with brass comes when it is under continual stress such as would be the case when a screw is exerting continual compression or tension on the metal (e.g. holding a center pin in a groove for 75 years). I am not seeing this issue here, so I wonder now if it is going to become an issue.

BTW, Schaff has invested heavily in 3D printing and has produced a version of the Chickering grand whippen flanges (I just got a couple dozen but have not tried them yet).  I am told the plastic has carbon fiber in it and is exceptionally strong (very reasonable too!).  They are going to be producing numerous hard-to-find parts, as well as specific requests, so it appears that they are the go-to place for 3d piano stuff.

So...back to the flange at hand...has THIS flange caused you the same problem as other Chickering brass flanges?  Horace, you intimated yes, but did not specifically say so (I don't think).

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 11:44
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Could it be Tungsten?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Zinc? I never have heard of making zinc parts.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 11:44
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Could it be Tungsten?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

aluminum?

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
678-416-8055
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 11:44
From: Edward McMorrow
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Could it be Tungsten?

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Most likely "pot metal": an alloy from several sources (copper, tin, lead, antimony, bismuth: whatever gets tossed in). Also known as pewter.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

It's brass. I misdiagnosed it first time around. Nickel plated brass.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 17:33
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Most likely "pot metal": an alloy from several sources (copper, tin, lead, antimony, bismuth: whatever gets tossed in). Also known as pewter.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine
Billerica MA
978-663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 09:38
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Well, this is interesting...the flange is non-magnetic, however when I file through the corner I am not seeing brass as I would have expected.

Hmmm.

Must look closer.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 08:49
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac!  Yes...why didn't I think of that?  😨🤡

I make my own so I am sure I can mix the required viscosity...or I can cook it to suit my needs. (Makes me sound like I'm running a meth lab).

Horace,

👍👍 on the cords. I showed the client the issue and assured him that, even though they're not breaking now, they surely will shortly after he starts back in on playing it, therefore the need to replace now first time in the shop instead of second time. He is astute and agrees entirely.

Bill,

I am also quite sure they are iron...looks,and feels like it, plus they plated it which they did not do to the brass AFAIK.  A simple magnet will prove/disprove this.

Yes, this is a 67bb. Cool piece of history. Fortunately the jack cords are in extremely good shape so I'm not going to have to tackle that one.

Shellac...sheesh!  I should have known that immediately.

Thanks all!

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2019 00:42
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Fascinating.
I have seen a Bluthner vertical with similar spring configuration. As with this one, they stitched the springs into the wood. they sure were good at drilling tiny holes.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 22:42
From: Alexander Brusilovsky
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Shellac is glue for felt to metall

Alexander Brusilovsky


Original Message------

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I have done a lot of research on Chickerings and recall reading about an iron upright action that was a disaster. To protect their name and high standards they did a massive recall of the action. I suspect that the issue was probably related to rusting or metal changes but the reasons are not 100% clear. Perhaps it was an expansion and contraction issue not unlike the expanding action brackets in Young Changs in the 1990's.  In any event maybe some of the iron pieces where salvaged/recycled and reused such as these flanges. All of the brass flanges I have seen in Chickerings have been solid brass with lots of variations in shapes, sizes and uses in the action. Sometimes both hammers and whippens had brass flanges sometimes one was wood and not the other. Trying to match up Chickering flanges can be a real challenge. I revived a quarter grand using all original parts but it was a challenge. As to how they got a bushing to stick to metal shellac was probably the adhesive. The Chickering flanges I worked with all had center pins that sat in cuts in the brass plates. If you are going to rebush these you may need to read up on some articles about using burnt shellac as a glue.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2019 21:44
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Chickering metal flange and bushing

Has anyone seen any of these before? This is a first for me. It is from an 1894 Chickering Upright that is otherwise in remarkably good shape. Notice the cloth bushing directly in the metal flange. Many of these need serious rebushing.

So my question is, do you think they glued these in somehow, and what would you suggest today for dealing with this?  I have not yet de-pinned it. I will doubtlessly also be replacing spring cords.

There is emotional investment in this piano. The youngest of 4 kids who grew up with it and learned to play on it. This guy moved a wall and a radiator (complete with re-plumbing the rad) to fit the pianonin the room. He really wants his piano back. Complete restore is down the road. Immediate need is to get the hammers back to hitting one unison each. Right now they are literally all over the place.

Notice the loop on the bottom too that goes through the jack and hooks on a spring to increase the jack action, much like a Fandrich spring. I can't wait to get this baby going again.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------