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Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

  • 1.  Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-08-2020 10:27
    I have a 1920s Baldwin Model R grand with the action, but missing the keyframe & keys (don't ask). I'm wondering if anyone has these parts lying around. I also wonder if the keyframes from any other Baldwin models might fit the Model R. Conversely, if anyone needs any other parts from this piano, let me know. It's a mahogany case with standard square tapered legs with brass ferrules. As I say, I have everything but the keyframe and keys!


    ------------------------------
    Philip Jamison
    Philip Jamison Pianos
    WEST CHESTER PA
    610-696-8449
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2020 11:38
    Philip,

    Are you sure of the model?  In the 1920s the 5'8" was a completely different scale than the later 5'8" "R."

    Either you are looking for a 20 note E scale (models E, H, W etc) or  your date is later (maybe you are using the case number instead?).   Or.....

    The early 5'8" is a 20 note bass ("E" scale).    The later 5'8" ("R") Is 26 notes.  It adopted the scale of the earlier 5'6" "G" which was a 26 note bass.   Maybe you're looking for a "G" scale?

    I'm curious if the G action fits into an R ��

    Bill

    Bill Shull, RPT,  M.Mus.

    Sent from my iPhone



    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-08-2020 13:09
    Thanks for the comments, Nill. Actually, I was guessing the model since the stamp on the plate is illegible. Hoever, I just noticed an "E" cast into the plate tail. It has a 20-note bass.

    Phil



    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2020 13:47
    Hi Philip,
    If you don't end up finding a set of keys and keyframe, we may be able to help. We build custom keyframes and keys for most any piano.  We're currently building one for a 1868 Chickering concert grand, and a 1906 Mason & Hamlin A in progress in our shop.  Keyframes are actually pretty easy, it's the matching keyset that's the trick. :)  However, if you don't have the old keyframe it will take a few hours to take the measurements. See our website below or give me a call and I'll see if I can help.

    Best regards,


    ------------------------------
    Dean Reyburn, RPT
    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Reyburn CyberTuner
    1-616-498-9854
    dean@reyburn.com
    www.reyburnpianoworks.com
    www.cybertuner.com 
    Facebook: www.facebook.com/dean.reyburn
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-09-2020 14:36
    Dean, I'm curious as to the joinery you use on the frame. Slip joint on the end stile & rail joints, full mortise& tenon, or a stub tenon?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2020 19:50
    Hi Jim,
    We use traditional mortise and tenon for slats to front and back rail, same as Steinway since so many of the keyframes we make are for Steiwnays. If we're duplicating a Chickering  (one coming up) I'd probably do the same construction as original, whatever that was just to keep things interesting and to be more original. I like to study the original keyframe as you can learn a lot from joinery from 100 or more years ago. With a background in cabinet making, this type of wood working is pretty straightforward as I'm used to doing mortise and tenon on cabinet doors.

    By "stub tenon" do you mean "loose tenon" ? Those are a little simpler but I don't think it's as elegant or as strong, and not as optimal for keyframes.

    The most difficult and maybe most important joint on a keyframe is at the bass and treble front corners. On quality pianos it's a full thru rabbet joint for a several reasons (is that what you mean by a "slip joint"?). First the action hold down screws (that go into the cheek block) want to go into hardwood  side grain for best thread holding, not end grain. Second, the thru joint tends keeps the front rail in the correct plane. Third the area of the action hold down ends up with three laminations which is more solid, and make the keyframe act more like a single unit..

    It's also important that the middle slats' tenons go fairly far into the front  and back rail as that's more solid and tends to keep the front and back rails in the same plane, parallel with the keybed front to back.

    Maybe it's strange but I think key frames are kind of fun to build. They take a lot of care with choosing wood and joinery.

    -Dean

    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com




    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-09-2020 22:14
    <By "stub tenon" do you mean "loose tenon" ? 
    No, stub tenon is a true tenon not a loose tenon, but it is quite short, only 1/4" or so...just enough to get some glue surface. It's what is used on production cabinet doors...it doesn't really have a mortise, but the stub tenon goes into a slot which is part of the shaped profile. I never used that in cabinet work, but is very common these days.



    <The most difficult and maybe most important joint on a keyframe is at the bass and treble front corners.
    This is joint I was interested in, as its the hardest, as you say...these are long and skinny, and as you say, not easy to run, because they are so skinny. I have done this as a slip joint

    Do you mean you do a half lap like this?
    I used to reproduce sash and doors for historic buildings...so I'm interested in aspect of the keyframe. I actually find the keyframe challenging to build, and challenging to get the stock to behave adequately. 






    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2020 13:54
    Hi Jim,
    The joint we use is the same as shown in front of your bandsaw - with a slot and two parts of the front rail surrounding the tenon on the base and treble. With that joint the key frame end pin goes into side grain in side slat's "tenon".

    I recently built a vertical piano keyframe with a "stub tenon" as you call it with about 1/4" inserted in front rail. Ok, that's fine for vertical pianos where the keyframe is screwed down to the key bed. But on grand keyframes I'd rather see a real mortise and tenon more like 1/2" into the front rail. 

    When we rebuild grand keyframes for a new keyset we can see inside the original construction. When we route out two channels (before the new tri-ply maple is inserted) you can usually see the front end of the interior slats' tenons from the original maker. That's normally more than 1/2" from the back of the front rail if memory serves.

    In any case, I have a table saw jig I built for cutting this "triple lap-joint"(?). Are you cutting this on a bandsaw? If so I'd like to see how that's done.

    I'd also be interested in what materials you use. Steinway it seems used just about anything on hand, poplar, mahogany (both poor choices imo), ash, white oak, sugar maple (good choices).  We use quarter sawn maple or white oak for the front rail, maple for the slats and back rail, walnut or mahogany cleats etc... But when I was recently at Mason & Hamlin I saw they were making some slats and other parts from spruce. 

    Thanks,

    -Dean
    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com




    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-10-2020 15:05
    That's a stock internet pic of the slip joint. When I do this, I do the tenon on a single end tenoner, which I still have from my sash making days. That is a long tenon, so I run it in a single pass, both sides and shoulders of the tenon. Doing it in a single pass, allows the uncut part of the tenon to support the wimpy long tenon.  

    The long deep mortise was done on a bandsaw, set up real well. Since it was a one off, I set up the bandsaw for each side of the cut, which is inefficient...but one-offs are one-offs. If I did these often, I would buy a 10" x 1/4" tenoning blade for the 1-1/4"shaper. The shaper again is from my days setting up sash runs...it can handle monster blades like that. The 10" blade would be running horizontally, not vertically as a table saw does. This would take out the middle"mortise" area in a single pass, as well. The other option for a production situation, would be to setup two bandsaws. They would be permanently setup next to each other, each one making only one cut of this two cut joint.

    As you say, stability of the sticks is the real problem here. I used some very old quarted white oak for mine. They moved, so I ended up kerfing them
    and filling the kerf with epoxy to straighten the stock.The balance rail was laminated soft maple...but that moved too after shaping it, as one might expect.  To tell the truth, I find good poplar, behaves better than any of the hardwoods, in terms of not bowing after shaping.  Because of the stability issue, an old frame, which has already done its moving, is always my preference, if the frame is at all serviceable.  So what do you do about stabilizing the front, balance, and back rails.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2020 15:50
    Jim writes: <Because of the stability issue, an old frame, which has already done its moving, is always my preference, if the frame is at all serviceable.  So what do you do about stabilizing the front, balance, and back rails.>

    I'm really REALLY careful about the wood I use. Only quarter sawn white oak or maple in key frames. The wood I get from a supplier in Michigan is kiln dried. If I can I cull the wood and pick only the best quality that's already below 8% moisture content. Anything that's over 8% MC goes into our solar kiln until it drops below 8%.

    The only moisture meter I've found that is reliable is a Lignomat, about $229 from Amazon.


    I've tried a number of others with pins but just sent them back. They gave obviously inconsistent and inaccurate readings. The Lignomat is as reliable as the old method of drying one board foot in an oven until it stops losing weight and weighing before and after, doing the comparison math. I haven't done than for a long time, hated doing it then.

    There are two other thing I do to make sure the wood is stable for keyframes:

    1. Humidity control the shop. The RPW shop never goes above 40% and never below 35% since we have both humidifier and dehumidifier.  The dehumidifier auto-drains outside. Both get checked daily, along with the humidistat in the shop center.

    2. Any wood we use for keyframes (or key blanks) is brought in the shop for at least two weeks before it's used.  We do this for cabinet making also, you're asking for trouble if you use wood just brought into a shop from anywhere with a several week acclimatization period.

    3. I know it's not traditional, but we use West system clear epoxy for glue up. It stablizes the joints and effectively welds the pieces together. And it doesn't swell the wood like AR glue would. If you use AR (aliphatic resin) glue, plan on the keyframe sitting for three days to a week before it's perfectly stable. With West system, it's stable the next day since there is almost zero swelling of the wood.

    Stability is absolutely critical for a keyset building shop, especially ours since we use a CNC machine for all key mortises an holes drilled. Once you start the process of making and processing a key blank, it to stay the same size (same moisture) or you lose your X and Y. With humidity control in a 5% max range and the other rules above, we have zero problem.

    We rebuild the old keyframe in the vast majority of keyset builds. But we have to install a new quarter sawn oak balance rail so the above principles all apply to that part. Our front rail inserts are triple ply Bolduc maple - no worries ever about that material.

    But there are occasions where a new keyframe is the only answer (such as it's missing, dry rot, or just 150 year old wood).  We encourage our customers to let us rebuild the old keyframes for almost all jobs. 

    Oh and for new keyframes we put on a coat of sealing shellac after building, then let it sit for couple days before building a keyset around it. Helps with stability. I often wonder (I doubt) that the major piano makers put any kind of sealer on keyframes. Anyone have info on that?

    -Dean Reyburn, RPT
    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com




    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-11-2020 09:56
    The part of keyframe construction that really is the hardest is, separate from EMC control, internal stress within wood causes wood to move when the wood is finish machined. It is really impossible to know beforehand whether the piece is going to be stable immediately after machining or not, and then after the first month or so, move again.  The more asymmetrically the stick is shaped, for instance, like a balance rail. the greater the tendency to have the piece bow or twist along the length. 

    Traditionally, this has been dealt with by kerfing the long rails, if they have bowed before or after assembly.

    I'm curious how you deal with movement that has more to do with either internal growth stress, or internal stress induced by kiln drying, rather than related to the shop moisture control you mention. Really, this is what I see as the real challenge in making frames. Also in keysets, which also tend ot "take-off" when cut apart. For instance, I have really nice white oak, that is over 75 years old. But even that stock, if you pick a board that is currently straight and milled, and looks stress free, rip it, joint it, and it still can bow after jointingt. One technique is to rough rip stock, and just let it sit around for months before using, but even that's not a guarantee. Even laminated rails bow after shaping.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2020 20:51
    Hi Jim,
    Ok I see where you're coming from. I think this is a multifaceted problem. Here's how we approach it:

    1. Wood selection. I select all our white oak and hard maple for balance rails and for building key frames. We only use the best quarter sawn white oak for balance rail, and it has to be really straight and tight grain.  My supplier lets me look through their stock of 5/4 and 6/4 to find exactly what I know will be stable.

    2. Testing moisture content has to be accurate to determine if it's really below the required 8%.  The Lignomat device is the only thing I trust and you have to test the wood with and at 90 degrees to the grain to get a reliable reading. My supplier uses the same device and they say the same thing, that's the best device available.

    3. Much of the wood I get is 9 to 12% MC even though they say it's "kiln dried". That's fine with me since I think the commercial kilns dry wood too fast with too much heat. We have a solar kiln which dries the wood very gently over many months. There is no electricity so the kiln cools off every night and sheds moisture. Of course in Michigan, in the winter we only have about 1 in 3 days sunny in the winter so it takes longer in the winter.  I check all my wood about once a month in the winter, every two weeks in the summer. It often takes 2 or 3 months in the winter, or a month in the summer to dry down to 8% required.

    I have a a bit of white ash in the kiln also, which we cut ourselves from the trees. It was dead but well preserved when we cut it.  Should be ready soon since it's been in for 6 months. Solar drying result is more like long term air drying IMO since it's way more gentle. The problem with most kiln drying is they get the wood too hot for too long, and that can leave tension and instability in the wood.

    When I was at Boesendorfer in 2018, I toured their facility (they all use CyberTuner btw ;)  they air dry all their wood for 6 to 8 years in their yard. They don't do any kiln drying at all. That's great if you have that much time and capital, and air drying for long periods is very gentle. I think our method of drying for 6 months in our kiln is comparable to their many years of air drying.

    We do what you mention, we rough cut our stock into about 60"+ by 3"~4" by 1.25~1.5" pieces which will be just the right size for keyframe rails or action rails, whatever is needed. They go to the kiln in almost the size we will be using them in the piano, therefore they dry evenly and slowly.  Then they sit in our shop for many months before we use them. If the wood has any twist after that, we straighten it with a combination of a large jointer and table saw. That's one mistake some woodworkers make, they expect a planer to straighten stock. It won't.

    As for keys twisting after cutting the keys, I've seen very little problem with that with the quality key blanks we use. We use pre-made key blanks from Kluge in Germany. Those guys are experts and picking out the best material - Norwegian Spruce in this case. Those are the same key blanks which go into every new Steinway. We also use custom keyblanks of our design from Bolduc - and they're just as good as Kluge.

    If there is a small amount of spring in the keys after cutting (and it's very small), we're able to fix that in the sanding process. Occasionally - rarely - we have to laminate some extra material on a key during the sanding process to correct the spacing.

    I will try to upload pictures of our kiln. This is the 2.0 version which holds about 2000 board feet (way more than we would ever need) we built 10 years ago. The 1.0 version from 35 years ago dried 500 bd ft and lasted about 10 kiln cycles before it override itself to popcorn. The 2.0 version is built from metal studs so it should last a long time.

    The inside picture shows a stack of white oak rough balance rails stickers and drying. 

    Best,

    -Dean

    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com




    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-11-2020 22:31
    Thanks Dean.  Yeah that was my question. So you avoid commercially kiln dried stock, which is where the problem I was talking about comes from...ie, when beautiful straight tight grain stock, doesn't behave as it ought. Nice kiln.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2020 22:55
    Well, yes, but I do use wood that's partially commercially dried, I'm just careful. And I'm just as happy to do the final drying below 10~12% MC myself. I don't think many or most of the commercial kiln operators know what they are doing.

    One thing I didn't mention is that I put weights on the top of each stack of rails as they dry. I had to take them off to take the picture inside kiln. With weights it's more likely they will come out of the kiln straight.

    I used to use a very small insulated box for a kiln (made of foam board), with a Dampp Chaser rod or rods on a timer.  It would cycle on for 12 hours and off. It would take a few months to dry wood but it worked fine, just cost me electricity.

    -Dean

    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com




    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-12-2020 09:33
    I'm curious why you don't like poplar.  The poplar I have gotten around here, which is kiln dried, has been consistently the most stable off the saw and out of the shaper than practically any wood other than old growth real mahogany, I have used.  I have done houses full of very complex, 6 pass poplar moldings where the poplar stock just stayed straight as an arrow, before during and after intermediate table saw or shaper passes. 

    Does your solar kiln have powered  ventilation, or passive?

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-12-2020 10:40
    Why don't I like poplar? I think we're talking about different trees. In Michigan poplar and aspen are considered two names for the same wood. The aspen I know that's on our family fram is really not good for anything, not even firewood as it burns too fast. I dried some aspen/poplar and it did nothing but twist. And it's really soft. So maybe your "poplar" is a different species than what I'm used to. 

    The solar kiln is entirely passive. When sunny the cooler air thermo siphons - is drawn into the solar collector and hot air comes out the top, causing good circulation whenever there is sun.  At night, when it's cooler out, any moisture condenses on the lexan and drips down and out the small ports at the bottom front. Thus it automatically removes water every night. I love things that work by design without much fussing. :)

    -Dean

    --
    1-888-SOFT-440  or 1-888-763-8440
    Reyburn Piano Service, Inc.
    http://www.cybertuner.com

    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Precision retrofit piano keyboards
    http://www.reyburnpianoworks.com




    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-12-2020 10:51
    Ahh...that explains it. Tulip poplar (not  lombardy poplar which are...not useful, even as landscape trees) which grows straight with very few lower branches.  You might check out a true poplar, if you can find it in Michigan...might be something that works well in a keyframe. It is a "soft" hardwood, soft being a relative term in the hardwood classification. I also like it for key shoes, as it is harder certainly than spruce, but not as noisy as maple can be if it is the least bit loose.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-12-2020 12:45
    Seconded- no other leaves tree can beat a poplar by stability... Jim , how good you think poplar can be for key buttons?

    Alexander Brusilovsky


    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-12-2020 14:51
    I've never tried it for buttons. I have a rather large stash of mahogany cutoffs from my sash making days. So, I use quartered mahogany for buttons...until the stock runs out.  If I did make buttons out of poplar, I would only do it out of quartered stock, I think, but I haven't seen quartered poplar. 

    I did get an opportunity to use some basswood on some bathroom drawers recently. I had the basswood hanging around for years...it was bought for piano work. I never felt the desire to use it for pianos, so we used on the drawers to get rid of it. I really did not like using the basswood at all.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Seeking Baldwin Grand Keyframe

    Posted 05-12-2020 20:20
    I did a little research on the Poplar question.  I see where the confusion comes from.  Dean's Aspen, Cottonwood, etc are in fact true Poplars. However, the woodworking wood referred to as Poplar, is not in a poplar at all. Liriodendron tulipfera -  Tulip tree is in the magnolia family,growing  to heights of 150' and diameters of 8', with the first 80' being clear of branches.

    On a totally other wood fact, after looking up the Poplar question, I saw how to tell the difference between a soft maple board and a hard sugar maple board. Its kind of hard to tell...Ferrous sulfate solution (2 tbs of iron sulfate in a cup of water) will turn soft maple a transparent blue black color, and turn hard maple a a greenish grey.

    ------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    ------------------------------

    Original Message